Page 30 of 89 FirstFirst ... 2025262728293031323334354080 ... LastLast
Results 581 to 600 of 1780
  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #581  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Exactly...they think God is real. Whereas the Government is real even if you don't believe in it.
    Yes, but the point remains, that this is simply a matter of differing views, not a principle of freedom. If restriction on freedom is the issue at hand, what does it matter the source? Of course, I maintain that since Religion in this country is voluntary, it is impossible for Religion to restrict freedom by force, whereas government does exactly that.

    So, is it ok to hand over your freedom to government, because you think its real, but not to God, because you think it isn't real? OR, is everyone simply taking part in something that they believe it is right, because they believe it is right and rejecting things when they think it isn't?

    I can just as easily say (although not prove) that God is real, and even though you don't believe in God, I do, so my actions are appropriate for me.

    Your argument seems to be coming down to the fact that you simply don't agree with people's choice to hold to some rule that you dislike. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge is that that is their choice and their business, and that everyone isn't going to live according to what you believe is or isn't real. Now, I assume you understand this very well, so my only confusion is why you seem to be arguing contrary to that anyway?

    KAM
  2. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #582  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    No, I don't think we are going to agree, but I appreciate your clarification. History is not fluid, it is static and unchanging. What happened yesterday, regardless of how many different times I report it, must stay the same to be considered accurate. The bible has not stayed the same, in fact it is the most reproduced AND re-edited manuscript in the history of the written language. In that respect alone I cannot consider it an accurate account of ancient history. Again, the bible was translated and re-written by hand countless times. In my opinion, each reproduction erodes its original validity.
    Well, instead of speaking in generalities, I guess I would just like to see some specific examples of what you mean.
  3.    #583  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, instead of speaking in generalities, I guess I would just like to see some specific examples of what you mean.
    Yes, I consider it very uncharitable for anyone possessing this knowledge not to share it. (If I'm being duped, I'd hope some of you can shed some light on the problem.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #584  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    The bible has not stayed the same, in fact it is the most reproduced AND re-edited manuscript in the history of the written language. In that respect alone I cannot consider it an accurate account of ancient history. Again, the bible was translated and re-written by hand countless times. In my opinion, each reproduction erodes its original validity.
    How so? Given that the bible was for a very long time reproduced by hand, I would say there is an amazing degree of consistency. While it is true that certain points are in fact endangered by not properly understanding all points in that chain of translation, these things are fairly well documented. For example, you can the New Testament in its original Greek, and translations that explain the details of it. If you simply pick up a King James version of it, and treat each and every word as literal, you might run into certain problems.

    Each reproduction COULD result in erosion of the original meaning, but it doesn't mean that must have occurred. As I mentioned--one can obtain a direct to English Translation from Greek, bypassing translations into Latin, and without the King James translation or others, and these things can all be compared.

    KAM
  5. #585  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    So, is it ok to hand over your freedom to government, because you think its real, but not to God, because you think it isn't real?
    Essentially, yes. However I say again...we all know the Government to exist but the same can't be said of God.
  6. #586  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, instead of speaking in generalities, I guess I would just like to see some specific examples of what you mean.
    Ok, here is one example:

    "The great scholar Erasmus was so moved to correct the corrupt Latin Vulgate [Bible], that in 1516, with the help of printer John Froben, he published a Greek-Latin Parallel New Testament. The Latin part was not the corrupt Vulgate, but his own fresh rendering of the text from the more accurate and reliable Greek, which he had managed to collate from a half-dozen partial old Greek New Testament manuscripts he had acquired."

    And this is merely one example of hundreds throughout history where the bible has been translated, edited, re-written, and then reproduced. If this is true (no way to know for sure) than the Bible has to be discounted as a historically accurate manuscript and accepted for what it is -- a collection of interesting stories, nothing more.

    Can't post the link, but you can find it at wwwDOTgreatsiteDOTcom/timeline-english-bible-history/
  7. #587  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    How so? Given that the bible was for a very long time reproduced by hand, I would say there is an amazing degree of consistency. While it is true that certain points are in fact endangered by not properly understanding all points in that chain of translation, these things are fairly well documented. For example, you can the New Testament in its original Greek, and translations that explain the details of it. If you simply pick up a King James version of it, and treat each and every word as literal, you might run into certain problems.

    Each reproduction COULD result in erosion of the original meaning, but it doesn't mean that must have occurred. As I mentioned--one can obtain a direct to English Translation from Greek, bypassing translations into Latin, and without the King James translation or others, and these things can all be compared.

    KAM
    See post #586
  8.    #588  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Essentially, yes. However I say again...we all know the Government to exist but the same can't be said of God.
    Government only exists (hopefully) because society sees a need for it. There are times when people declare that their government does not exist (usually with less than pleasant outcomes, but sometimes even revolutions/uprisings are necessary).

    The original question we posed was not only whether God exists or not, but is there logic in either view. The godless among us indicated that the belief in a supreme being is illogical. I've tried to facilitate understanding that there is a fair amount of logic and reason behind at least my religious views. I'd love to be able to poke some big holes in the "God" theory. Doing so would allow me to deny accountability should I be wrong. Please help me to refute these logical arguments that I'm so far incapable of doing!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9.    #589  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    nk, but you can find it at wwwDOTgreatsiteDOTcom/timeline-english-bible-history/
    Here's the link:
    English Bible History

    It looks like an interesting site, thanks for sharing it.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10.    #590  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Ok, here is one example:

    "The great scholar Erasmus was so moved to correct the corrupt Latin Vulgate [Bible], that in 1516, with the help of printer John Froben, he published a Greek-Latin Parallel New Testament.
    ...
    The Latin part was not the corrupt Vulgate, but his own fresh rendering ...

    ...And this is merely one example of hundreds throughout history where the bible has been translated, edited, re-written, and then reproduced. ...
    Are you saying this problem was found but there are who knows how many other similar times we did not catch this sort of thing? I give you the analogy of "open source software". Which has more security vulnerabilities, Linux or Windows? [Answer=Windows] Do we trust open source or hidden/proprietary encryption algorithms more? [Answer=Proprietary] The Bible "open" in this same sense.

    Since we have access to many translations and know their lineage (and can even "diff" one Bible/manuscript against the other. I'd say that any "evil schemes" to change the "Word" tend to become discovered in due time. If there is a God, justice will be served. If there is no God, then we have no way of serving justice.

    If we're all chickens, then it doesn't really matter, but that does not answer for why humans prefer order over chaos. I'd argue that choosing some sort of mechanism that fulfills this human need is better than declaring non-existence of something we cannot "prove" either way. If you care about society, the minimum you should be advocating is a "fake" god. Finding a real one (or systematically "exposing" all the fakes) makes even more sense than being duped by a fake god. Regardless of all of this, I think we all need to be seeking the truth.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/22/2010 at 05:48 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #592  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Essentially, yes. However I say again...we all know the Government to exist but the same can't be said of God.
    Yes.

    KAM
  12. #593  
    I think that this thread is going really well Sudoer! And you are doing a Great job Moderating it!

    Just curious on what your intentions were on your OP?

    PS and if there is a heaven, I think it would be quite cruel to not allow animals there, being that they do bring soo much joy in sooo many peoples life! I could imagine life (or afterlife if exists) without one!
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #594  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    See post #586
    I think you overreach on your conclusion, but that's just my opinion.

    KAM
  14.    #595  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I think that this thread is going really well Sudoer! And you are doing a Great job Moderating it!
    I'm moderating in the "dynamic" sense of that word. (Just trying to keep the temperature cool when things start to get hot.) I have no "power" other than the power of persuasion. You all are the ones doing the right things. I'm just sort of setting the pace.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Just curious on what your intentions were on your OP?
    Our conversation diverged toward this topic in another thread. We let it happen for a while and eventually agreed that one cannot "prove" or "disprove" the existence of God. We universally agreed that it takes a "leap of faith" to believe in God. My intent of this thread was to demonstrate that that after logic is applied to the problem, a "leap of faith" is required no matter which alternative you choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    PS and if there is a heaven, I think it would be quite cruel to not allow animals there, being that they do bring soo much joy in sooo many peoples life! I could imagine life (or afterlife if exists) without one!
    I feel the same way about several dogs that I knew growing up. God of the Bible loves you and wants you to be totally happy, I can guarantee you that He will provide everything you need to be happy should He exist. That's why I suggested to someone earlier in this thread that our earthly lives might just be another form of "development" (for our eternal lives in Heaven). I grew up thinking my afterlife would be "spiritual" but the Bible says we will be reunited with our glorified bodies. In the Gospels, there is a story of a "Transfiguration" where Jesus met and talked with Moses and Elijah about "the Exodus". That occurred when Jesus and some Apostles went up on a mountain to pray. Jesus (still alive in his human life) and Moses and Elijah's bodies all shined with radiance and splendor. This is what our heavenly bodies will be like. It's also interesting that the conversation about the Exodus (in Exodus) was about the J e w s reaching the promised land, and the conversation the three were having was about Jesus returning to the promised kingdom in Heaven. The symbolism between the OT and the NT is really strong where it's showing a connection between the two.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15. #596  
    matbe I can sway some of the conversation, it seemd to be that neither side can prove the accuracy of the bible or existence of God to one side or the other... I have a question it might get a little deep or shallow to some:

    What events led you up to becoming a believer or non believer?

    Me personally I am probably the worst of all, I am Agnostic... (normally a realist which would make me a complete non believer, but I like to keep my options open )
    I am this way bc Im a rebel and I dont like to side with anyone! haha JK I am a man of proof and science for me to be convinced, just the way I am. The 2 things that turn me off from being a firm believer is the accuracy of the bible, translative and evidently, (I know this is a current topic, but I feel there are exagerations in historical events [noahs ark] and too many people/too long involved in translating) and secondly the church as an organization.
    There are too many people involved to add and say what they want to be portrayed (I think of Pilgrims and indians, we were raised and in all elemntary books, we shared meals and it was a great peaceful relationship until you find out when your older that the pilgrims felt superior and diseased the indians and stole their land). It is a fear based religion "Accept Jesus as your lord and savior" or spend eternity in hell! And I feel that just like in politics, people abuse emotions. Theres also a bit of propoganda, they could add and take out anything to validate their views and keep the organization strong. I am just reminded of a quote in Stigmata (yeah yeah, i know its a movie but it hits a good point with a hidden scripture)
    "Jesus said... the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood... and I am there, lift a stone... and you will find me."
    In the movie they wanted all the written evidence of this newly found scripture destroyed bc it will ruin the church as a organization. I know its a movie but it is VERY likely that this has happened...

    Just a few of the reasons why I am not a firm believer. (At least the ones that I can not be talked out of with kind words of religion)

    I feel that if I live my life the best way I know and do things with my best intentions for myself and others, then heaven could be waiting for me ( if exists). But because of my own ignorance and not truly believing in God or that the "living form" of Jesus that presented himself 2010 years ago was the real thing, would punish me to the depths of hell, I think that would be unfair being that a killer can accept those things and go to heaven but myself always striving to do things with best intentions, will not be "forgiven"
    Last edited by gsonspre; 02/22/2010 at 02:02 PM.
  16. #597  
    I dont believe in God, heaven, hell, the devil or any of that. I do believe, that treating your fellow human being as you wish to be treated is a good place to start. I would hope that people allow me my way of thinking, as I allow them theirs.
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #598  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I dont believe in God, heaven, hell, the devil or any of that. I do believe, that treating your fellow human being as you wish to be treated is a good place to start. I would hope that people allow me my way of thinking, as I allow them theirs.
    Speaking as one Religious believer, I certainly respect your right to believe what you want. However, it has never been my place to "allow" you anything--in other words, you don't need anyone's permission. It is your God Given (or in your case Natural born right) to believe whatever you want.

    KAM
  18. #599  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I dont believe in God, heaven, hell, the devil or any of that. I do believe, that treating your fellow human being as you wish to be treated is a good place to start. I would hope that people allow me my way of thinking, as I allow them theirs.
    Like i said, much earlier in this thread, i think it is more genuine if a person is good "out of the goodness of their heart"- As opposed to just acting like a good person because they believe they'll burn in hell if they're not good to others.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/22/2010 at 02:12 PM.
  19. #600  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Like i said, much earlier in this thread, i think it is more genuine if a person is good "out of the goodness of their heart"- As opposed to just being a good person because they believe they'll burn in hell if they're not good to others.
    Agreed in much simpler and shorter text then my own! haha

Posting Permissions