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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day. ...
    Thanks for making this comment. Maybe the following may help:

    The Bible teaches that God desired man (Adam and Eve) to live in paradise, but that God gave man free will, man was tempted not to follow the will of God, and that all of man had to live with the consequence of this original sin.

    God made a series of covenants with man (in the Old Testament) which man seems to have failed in (sometimes spectacularly) throughout all the stories in the Old Testament. Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah who is the same God of as in the Old Testament. Christians of various denominations place varying weights on Old Testament writings and many focus on the New Testament. Many would consider my previous sentence as controversial and that's not my intent. I'm simply stating religions are all over the map (or Bible) on this. I welcome discussion around this but let's not loose sight of identifying why one would reasonably conclude that belief in a God is logical.

    dbd, let me close by saying that many believe that Satan is responsible for the bad which happens and all of this evil is due to direct and indirect consequences of sin. Evil is permitted because God loves us enough to give us free will to do as we choose. He created us to choose Him in eternal life but he respects us (who are made in His image). It's a model that we should use in how we also treat each other and God. They say "God writes straight with crooked lies" (sorry, I don't know who I'm quoting), Essentially this means God allows evil but he will find a way to eventually bring a greater good of any evil. That's the "theory" anyway. Hopefully I've shed some light on at least why God allows evil. (If others care to articulate this better than I have, please feel free to step in. Reasons from other faiths are always welcome.)

    In response to dbd's quote at the top of this post, darreno1 said:
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    I agree, but the answer you'll hear from the religious, is that he works in mysterious ways or you have to pray for him to hear you or some other convenient excuse.
    Yeah, my "God writes straight with crooked lies" thing is kind of another example of the "he works in mysterious ways" argument you mention. I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it an "excuse", but I can see how you might think this way. (I'm hoping my comment above sheds a bit more light than what you've heard in the past.)
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/16/2010 at 10:35 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    I know alot of atheists and pagans, in my experiences they generally have a greater passion toward people and animals, even the earth. So the moral argument, is nothing more then spatter.

    @jewel, there is much more evidence to support global warming then there is god.

    @shadavis, I have a hard time beliving theres a way to prove that. When I thought I was dying, I didnt cry out to a god, it never crossed my mind. What did come to me was fear of coming back, I dont want to come back. And I dont necesarrily belive in reincarnation to begin with.


    As we found in the palin thread, we can argue god non-stop, but neither side will accept the others. Thats why I faded in the end. To me, you can't debate history. But you can debate the bible. And history proves the teachings have changed, the bible has changed, books were removed and destroyed. It is absolutey historical. I understand the hardline of arguing against the bible, and it is almost pointess. but.... take into consideration

    When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, we understand that as a myth

    when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.

    When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth

    When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth

    When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

    When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

    When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal , we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth

    So how come when Jesus is described as
    the Son of God,
    born of a mortal woman,
    according to prophecy,
    turning water into wine,
    raising girls from the dead, and healing blind men with his spittle,
    and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven, the indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades, I mean Hell for the bad folks...
    well how come that's not a myth?

    Also, the first sources of jesus were the gospels, I think 80-120 yrs after christ died and rose or whatever. Plus there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of christ at all.

    I think his story just caught on. I also think if you were born in pakistan,you may be blowing yourself up in the name of allah.

    Thank you for posting this well thought out and intellectual thought that in my opinion full shows that the Bible stands the test of time. All of these other "myths" were shown to be false yet no viable proof can be shown or brought forth to show the falicy of the Bible. I just believe that no matter what you believe there is faith involved. Even if you don't believe iin God you have faith that there is no God.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe or not believe, but i resent the hypocrites that preach this and preach that and tell you how to live your life while committing their own sins (of which they preached against).
    Well the problem is you have assumed God gives a crap about our daily lives. If God controlled everything there would be no free will and nothing bad would ever happen. Who the hell wants that.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    I know alot of atheists and pagans, in my experiences they generally have a greater passion toward people and animals, even the earth. So the moral argument, is nothing more then spatter.

    @jewel, there is much more evidence to support global warming then there is god.

    @shadavis, I have a hard time beliving theres a way to prove that. When I thought I was dying, I didnt cry out to a god, it never crossed my mind. What did come to me was fear of coming back, I dont want to come back. And I dont necesarrily belive in reincarnation to begin with.


    As we found in the palin thread, we can argue god non-stop, but neither side will accept the others. Thats why I faded in the end. To me, you can't debate history. But you can debate the bible. And history proves the teachings have changed, the bible has changed, books were removed and destroyed. It is absolutey historical. I understand the hardline of arguing against the bible, and it is almost pointess. but.... take into consideration

    When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, we understand that as a myth

    when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.

    When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth

    When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth

    When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

    When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

    When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal , we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth

    So how come when Jesus is described as
    the Son of God,
    born of a mortal woman,
    according to prophecy,
    turning water into wine,
    raising girls from the dead, and healing blind men with his spittle,
    and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven, the indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades, I mean Hell for the bad folks...
    well how come that's not a myth?

    Also, the first sources of jesus were the gospels, I think 80-120 yrs after christ died and rose or whatever. Plus there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of christ at all.

    I think his story just caught on. I also think if you were born in pakistan,you may be blowing yourself up in the name of allah.
    we understand that as a myth.
    This statement doesnt apply everywhere you know. You're calling it myth because thats what you believe.

    And there are Christians in Pakistan.

    Two books to read which substantiate your statements. My guess from your post would be you've read the first.
    The Jesus Mysteries. Very interesting.
    Foucault's Pendulum, a novel by Umberto Eco.

    I recommend them both, but then again I also recommend The Case for Christ.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    And neither myself or any other person including God has to prove anything to anyone. just ask [Jesus] to come into your heart if you want to know if he is real . you have to look for and seek him truly with your heart. not in the aspect of trying to prove anything because the condition of your heart and the reasons you search will determine what you find.
    Unfortunately this point is lost on many. It's a clear theme in both the OT and NT (for instance, the Tower of Babel in Genesis, chapter 11). When man is proud, their hearts are hardened to hearing the message in the Bible. This is of little consolation to those who might try to hear His message but can't decipher it due to lack of understanding (or being repulsed by the "infighting" they see among religious groups. From my vantage point, this is why Christian unity is so important. I believe the devil has been very successful in confusing Christians into a modern day "Tower of Babel" and some atheists and agnostics are the "battle damage" that occurs due to this confusion. People of various faiths need to work together for the common good!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #46  
    +1
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    ... you can debate the bible. And history proves the teachings have changed, the bible has changed, books were removed and destroyed. It is [absolutely] historical. ...
    Please do me a favor and elaborate on this. (A summary will be acceptable, but citations or web pages elaborating your assertions will be very helpful.) While I consider this a bit tangential, I still think it's relevant to the "God is illogical" side of the arguments over there. I suspect going a bit deeper might be fruitful (or at least increase or collective understanding). Thanks.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe.....
    Living in a Judeo-Christian world I am bombarded with viewpoints that support and not support the concept of "karma". Some babies die too early to have earned the bad karma of being born in squalor or face an early death. The disbelief in such injustice could be explained by reincarnation, but would be hard to explain in Christian belief.
    ----------------------------------------
    Cause and effect is a scientific argument until we get cloudy about what are the causes and what are the effects.
  9. #49  
    Jesus preached the two greatest commandments were to love God, and love people. If you doubt His very existence, then the first half seems a little silly. But no right-minded individual could argue that loving your neighbor as yourself is destructive or deceitful. Unfortunately, the majority of the church, in an attempt to demonstrate some sort of piety to themselves and/or others, have focused all their attention to denouncing certain external acts (drinking, cursing, fornicating, etc.) and totally missed the point of what it means to be Jesus' true disciples. God is love and has given everyone, *** and Gentile, black and white, hetero and homo, an opportunity to accept a beautiful gift, an "indestructible seed," that can completely change someone's life, or view of it.

    Any parent that has chosen to be a part of their child's life can easily understand. It's the moment you looked into their eyes and realized that this world does not revolve around you anymore. This wisdom (knowledge applied) can't be taught or debated over a forum, only experienced. I know that has become quite cliche to say, but I don't think it is any less true.

    If you are a believer, would you say you are spending more time loving the unloved and forgotten, or listening to christian televangelists and learning from someone else's experience, maybe to be/feel better equipped in a debate of apologetics? God does instruct us to study, but would people you associate with on a daily basis (work, school, family, etc.) see God through the love you show your neighbors?

    "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    While the majority of ministers and priests are well meaning, giving people, stories like this are part of the reason that people call them hypoctrites. The word of God is used in ways light-years from their intended purposes:

    Baptist Pastors to Pray for Barack Obama's Death on Presidents Day.
    Yes, the Bible also says that some people will twist God's word to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16).

    While I would never join in such a prayer, as an American citizen, I defend these people to exercise their religious freedom. I think it's a bit arrogant of them to ask God to do something that's entirely up to God alone (like they think God needs to be reminded to "do this"). I guess it's better that they ask God to "handle this" rather than them taking matters into their own hands, but I feel their actions are already beyond what God wills (based on his Word).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by stevealaniz View Post
    Jesus preached the two greatest commandments were to love God, and love people. ...
    ...God does instruct us to study, but would people you associate with on a daily basis (work, school, family, etc.) see God through the love you show your neighbors?
    You made a great first post. I'll keep what you said in my mind as I start my day tomorrow. Welcome to PreCentral!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The Bible teaches that God desired man (Adam and Eve) to live in paradise, but that God gave man free will, man was tempted not to follow the will of God, and that all of man had to live with the consequence of this original sin.
    Great point.

    This happened at the very outset of Man's history.
    I've always liked illustrations.

    See what you think of this:

    Parent has child. Gives them advice on how to enjoy the best life.
    A stranger comes along and tells the child that his parents lied to him.
    Because the child has free will and the ability to reason, he starts to consider what the stranger told him about his father. The child makes a decision to ignore what his parent said. The father told the child early on; 'if you want to live under my roof and continue to receive the support and help I can give you, and grow in insight and wisdom so as to make good choices in life, you have to abide by my rules'. The young adult chooses to try it on his own and rejects his father's authority. Inexperienced and somewhat arrogant, the now full grown adult has a trail of wreckage from his continued bad choices.

    The question next might be; Why doesn't the father help his son get back on track?
    Just call me Berd.
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    While the majority of ministers and priests are well meaning, giving people, stories like this are part of the reason that people call them hypoctrites. The word of God is used in ways light-years from their intended purposes:

    Baptist Pastors to Pray for Barack Obama's Death on Presidents Day.
    Really Bujin? Was this worth posting? If the majority of ministers are “well meaning, giving people” then why would anyone, including you, feel the need to label them hypocrites because of the actions of a very, very small minority? Were you aware that there are over 600,000 denominational clergy in the US (including several thousand Baptist ministers) and hundreds of thousands more independent clergy? Don’t you think you can find examples of sour grapes in any group of people this size? What do you feel it could possibly say about the much larger group of “well meaning” people? Sorry, but it really, really bugs me that people would use these two men as a representation of anything but these two men alone. Anyone who would label all ministers hypocrites because of a story like this have problems of their own that go far beyond the clergy.
  14. #54  
    I would just like to take a moment to mention how much i appreciate a mature conversation like this.
    I never really cared about venturing into this "off-topic" side of the forum because i was always here to complain... err DISCUSS issues about the Pre.
    But it's really interesting to see you guys here discussing things that either go with or against how i pictured you all in my head.
    Admit it. You all have PREconceived notions about each of our personalities based ONLY on what we've posted about a freakin' phone.
    To see a mature discussion like this, separates the men and women from the boys and girls.
    It truly is refreshing.

    (BTW, Sudoer: How was your date in Wisconsin? lol)
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/17/2010 at 07:16 AM.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Really Bujin? Was this worth posting?
    Stop oppressing me, Stan. [/montypython]

    Yes, I believe it was worth posting. The question related to why there is a perception of hypocrisy related to religious figures.

    Those 2 individuals are certainly not alone with regards to twisting God's words to meet less-than-godly purposes. One only needs to look at the Catholic Church's molestation issues, as well as incidents such as the above post, and numerous sex scandals among high-profile preachers, to see why many people see religion as hypocritical.

    All of this, of course, is compounded by religious figures of all denominations who pick & choose scripture to justify everything from terrorism to killing of abortion doctors to hatred of homosexuals.

    Unfortunately, religious hypocrisy is much more common than I originally posted - I was being charitable.

    Sorry, but it really, really bugs me that people would use these two men as a representation of anything but these two men alone. Anyone who would label all ministers hypocrites because of a story like this have problems of their own that go far beyond the clergy.
    And of course I never labeled all ministers hypocrites - merely pointing out that stories like these are not at all uncommon, and undermine the credibility of religious institutions. But if you want to twist what I said to indicate that I "have problems", go right ahead. Is that very Christian, though?

    One would think a moderator would know better than to make such personal attacks, or to discourage folks from posting because you don't agree with the content of what they're saying.
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/17/2010 at 07:54 AM.
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    I would just like to take a moment to mention how much i appreciate a mature conversation like this.
    At the risk of diverging a bit 'off topic' in my own 'off-topic' thread, I just wish our government could realize the danger of the scandal they are creating in this country by being so polarized.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    (BTW, Sudoer: How was your date in Wisconsin? lol)
    Dude, you are just bad news to me! I'm just glad Atlanta is far enough away from Boston to limit for me the trouble you can cause!

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    ...about a freakin' phone.
    Let's not forget that it's a freakin' AWESOME phone!!!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Dude, you are just bad news to me! I'm just glad Atlanta is far enough away from Boston to limit for me the trouble you can cause!
    LOL-
    But i'm driving back up to NYC later this month to visit the old neighborhood.
    After driving from ATL to NY, Beantown is just a stone's throw away!
    Just kidding, don't worry.
    ---
    And Blaize:
    Thank you for all those thanks.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/17/2010 at 07:30 AM.
  18. #58  
    Oops. Misread the thread title. Thought this was a philosophical discussion of whether 1.4 really exists.
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    This has been debated to death here a number of times. I believe the outcome was that neither side could convince the other side they were crazy.

    Well, this is a wonderful demonstration of why this sort of discussion goes nowhere in most cases. Why? Because this is a wild distortion of many Faiths, that have literally hundreds or thousands of years of scholarly study behind it. I know those who worship science (often overestimating it or their understanding of it) and fail to understand that it doesn't apply to Religious belief at all have a hard time resolving this, and make the mistake of this sort of nonsense comparison. Of course, the requisite smugness of self congratulations goes along with it in many cases.

    When one "side" in a discussion relies so heavily on scornful distortion, it is no wonder that such discussions are so easily poisoned. Perhaps if the Anti-Religious side could avoid its childish jibes there could be a fruitful discussion. I seem to recall people preaching here about that insults are an indication of how weak your argument is. Judging by that, this is a wonderful display of weakness. Or, perhaps that only applies to people they dislike or disagree with.

    One poster stated: Science methodology and religious faith are an apples and oranges discussion.

    This is true, which is what I spent recent days trying to explain, and which was vehemently denied by some. I guess to some people (claiming to rely on logic) it matters WHO says something rather than what is said. If that's "logical" then this is yet another reason why these discussions go nowhere. When those claiming logic insist on emotion based irrational responses, when THEIR preconceived notions are questioned, while taking the position that things they dislike are "illogical" then, there isn't much hope.

    Apparently, these anti-religious people aren't able to comprehend the fact that "evidence" (as referenced in that very clever chart) is more akin to a historical kind than some neatly packaged experiment. This is a distortion that this little swipe relies on. In fact--religious based historical events (like any historical event) are rarely (less so the older you get) on the same level as a chemistry or physics experiment (for example). Rather they are based on accounts of varying degrees of quality and quantity often missing pieces, and with many contradictions, because these things are not measured data--they are human-based accounts of an event.

    So, in short--the sort of comparison made above is extremely dishonest...or based in great ignorance--not sure which. Of course, these same adherents to "science" are also likely to readily accept non-religious historical events, without any such scrutiny or scorn. Not everyone of course--I'm sure there are skeptics about various non-religious historical events as well. Those that fail to be consistent in this are of course hypocrites...or deeply ignorant, again, not sure which. Of course, I'm speaking of the historical aspect of Religions, rather than the supernatural, but this little chart makes no distinction. But why would it--a tool of ridicule's goal isn't accuracy.

    In short--anti-Religious people seem to have at least as much fervor in their chosen belief as religious people do in their's, despite Scientific Methodology being ill-suited to prove or disprove anything in regards to Faith (apples and oranges as stated above). When people keep insisting that they can prove or disprove something that is unprovable, the futility meter goes off the chart.

    So, with that starting point...I'll just wish everyone here good luck.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 02/17/2010 at 08:44 AM.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Thank you for posting this well thought out and intellectual thought that in my opinion full shows that the Bible stands the test of time. All of these other "myths" were shown to be false yet no viable proof can be shown or brought forth to show the falicy of the Bible. I just believe that no matter what you believe there is faith involved. Even if you don't believe iin God you have faith that there is no God.
    actually, none of the "myths" are proven to be false. And nothin in the bible is proven to be true, other than maybe some historically correct elements. Of course, many works of fiction (dracula) are also historically correct. It seems pretty evident that the story of jesus derives from other myths and religions. The differnce is the other stories are held as false, while his is accepted. When there is nothing to prove or disprove any of the old stories, including his. Even christmas is a pagan day, stolen by christianity

    posting from my pre was harder than expected, so i'll swing back through tonight
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