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  1.    #541  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think that's a very insightful view of organized religion......
    Who said that Shadavis08's religion was "organized". The anti-church phrase "organized" is usually reserved for Catholics!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. #542  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Again, let's look at Shadavis08's perspective (especially the Pauline letters of the New Testament). This is an entirely reasonable position for him to take. From his perspective, Christ death on the cross was solely sufficient and the only means of salvation.


    Christians are told to be moral, but Shadavis08 might see this more as an effect on your relationship with God than a "reward for doing good".

    I unerstand Shadavis08's perspective, but it seems rather arbitrary that the billions in the world who haven't been raised Christian are denied eternal salvation, simply by the accident of where they are born and raised. That was an issue that I could never understand when I was a Catholic, and I don't understand it now.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, and I understand the benefits that faith can bring to people (even if I think it's all delusion) but I can't get past the idea that folks have this absolute certainty that their faith is superior than others, without questioning exactly what makes their version more valid.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  3.    #543  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    just remember , i'm not religious, i'm christian, and there is a difference between the two.
    I'm familiar with your association with the term "Christian" but can you please elaborate on why you do not want to also associate with the term "religious"? (thanks)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #544  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Who said that Shadavis08's religion was "organized". The anti-church phrase "organized" is usually reserved for Catholics!
    I would think any religious organization would consider themselves "organized", in the sense that they have specific rules / scriptures / prohibitions. I don't think anyone has ever stated that "organized religion" is synonymous with "Catholic".
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  5. #545  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    just remember , i'm not religious, i'm christian, and there is a difference between the two.
    That's actually a funny statement. How can you be Christian without being religious? I ask because I would have probably said the same thing as a young adult: I was Christian because it was family tradition, not because I had a strong religious faith. I'm curious if that's what you mean, or something else entirely.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  6.    #546  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I unerstand Shadavis08's perspective, but it seems rather arbitrary that the billions in the world who haven't been raised Christian are denied eternal salvation, simply by the accident of where they are born and raised. That was an issue that I could never understand when I was a Catholic, and I don't understand it now.
    The Catholic Church teaches that non Catholics who are "invincibly ignorant" of specific Catholic teachings are not condemned to hell through no fault of their own. I suggest you re-acquaint yourself with some Catholic teachings. Luckily I was not damaged by the many overzealous nuns in the Catholic schools. They chewed me up and spit me out in 1st grade, and my mother repeated me in 1st grade in public schools. The net effect was that I learned much of my faith later in life (as an adult) but I don't have a lot of the negative reactions to the Church that many "Catholic schooled" children seem to have later in life.

    BTW: I'm truly sorry for the experiences you had.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7.    #547  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I would think any religious organization would consider themselves "organized", in the sense that they have specific rules / scriptures / prohibitions. I don't think anyone has ever stated that "organized religion" is synonymous with "Catholic".
    I think I overreact to the term. Thanks for giving me some reason to believe otherwise than the way I seem to react about this.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #548  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I unerstand Shadavis08's perspective, but it seems rather arbitrary that the billions in the world who haven't been raised Christian are denied eternal salvation, simply by the accident of where they are born and raised. That was an issue that I could never understand when I was a Catholic, and I don't understand it now.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, and I understand the benefits that faith can bring to people (even if I think it's all delusion) but I can't get past the idea that folks have this absolute certainty that their faith is superior than others, without questioning exactly what makes their version more valid.
    everyone has their chance and some have many many chances to find Jesus,(God) . the problem is not Him(God) its the fact He gave us a choice .He gave your mother, father,grandfather 'and so on and so on .... He gave everyone a choice going all the way back . tell me this dose your family suffer if you make the wrong choices in life? yes same for me. so thats the same thing people made wrong choices a long time ago and that why people dont know Him now. i didnt know God until i found Jesus either . but now i do. even people in this country have never heard of Jesus . you dont have to go over seas to find people that dont know Him. God is a faith God . if you seek Jesus because you need him and want to know him, you will find him and see him and know him. but if you seek him out to disprove he exists chances are you will never see him or find him .
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  9. #549  
    being religious to me is like focusing on following a set of ruls and regs. or this rule and that rule ,but just focusing on what i can or cant do.and yes while the law is something to be followed for the most part lol christianity is following the law written in your heart to love God with all your heart mind and strength.and to love others and treat them the way you want to be treated. and by this your focusing on God ,Jesus and loving others and in this process you will follow mans law anyways if it does not go against Gods' word. thats the best way i can explain it . if i didnt explain it very well forgive me lol im not very good on the computer or with writing skills ha!

    i must needs to sleep have a great night all and i will ttyl for sure lol
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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  10.    #550  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    being religious to me is like focusing on following a set of ruls and regs. or this rule and that rule ...
    Now I get what you meant. You don't want to be like the "relgious" Pharisees who denied Christ. Good call!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #551  
    Thanks everyone for you good exchanges here today. I think we covered a lot of ground!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #552  
    Strange thread on pre forum, but fun to read.
  13. #553  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Now I get what you meant. You don't want to be like the "relgious" Pharisees who denied Christ. Good call!
    this is correct!!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  14.    #554  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    yes i know God well enough that He freed me from cigarrettes instantly without any side effects lol oh and from drugs and alcohol .
    What about sex and "rock 'n roll" ?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15.    #555  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Sorry about your cat passing and if their is a heaven my dog better be there waiting for me when she passes!
    It's amazing the amount of love and the bond we can develop with an animal. This cat had an undiagnosed disease and went quickly while my wife and kids were on a trip, but I was home. It was very stressful for me to see the cat not eat and be lethargic. I brought her to the vet to be hydrated (all day) and that evening (at home with me she had a seizure). I rushed her to the vet but there was nothing they could do for her. She had a faint pulse but died peacefully. It taught me a lesson about how quickly thing can change from what we expect and it made me think about Heaven in a way I never had done so before. Just the thought of your dog waiting in Heaven for you to arrive gave me a really nice thought right now.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16.    #556  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm not contesting that he lived, was crucified, or missing from the grave. In fact, I'm pretty certain that it's been pretty settled on the first two points. The third is hearsay, as far as I know.... Regardless, none of these prove that he was the son of God, resurrected, ascended into Heaven, etc. Those are faith based interpretations of events, not the events themselves.
    Micael, I think my brain was a bit overloaded yesterday. Sometimes I have to sleep on things before a good answer to a question "clicks" in my mind. This exact thing happened to me about your question on Jesus' resurrection. It occurred to me this morning that Saul (a devout student of the most prestigious Jewish Rabbi of all time, and a persecutor of Christians) was converted upon seeing the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus. Both the Bible (and history) account for this conversion and there is little reason to doubt the Paul's testimony of this.

    I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this. If it's something that never occurred to you, please feel free to take your time and research and think about your possible response. Is there a typical "Deist" response to my question here? (Thanks)
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/20/2010 at 02:32 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17.    #557  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Responses like this are exactly why the "it's about faith, not about the details of the individual religions" falls apart. The invisible guy worshiped by one individual ultimately has to be better than the invisible guy the other person worships.
    When I consider the "science" from this post ...
    ... it triggers a thought that we may be created (with a genetic program) to choose (or not choose) a God. If we are created to "choose a God", this adds a bit of credence to the possibility that a God might existent who created this program. It might even demonstrate that we were not all programmed to have the same understanding of this God.

    I guess what I'm saying is I'm not willing to say science has ruled in or out the possibility of God making us exactly as we are. I also think that science will only be able to tell us the "what" about this (at most) and never the "why". If revealed word produces a "why" that does not contradict science's "what" (but instead is consistent with or further supports it), then I think it would be more logical to accept such a revelation than to dismiss it.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/20/2010 at 02:30 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  18. #558  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    What about sex and "rock 'n roll" ?
    hello again whats going on? i still like rock in roll i just keep it with christian precepts and sex will be only within in marriage of course. lol
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  19.    #559  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    hello again whats going on?
    A little bit of me trying to be funny, and a little bit of curiosity how you were going to answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    i still like rock in roll i just keep it with christian precepts and sex will be only within in marriage of course. lol
    Christianity really seems to have turned your life around in a very positive way. In this world (but not "of this world") seems to be where you are at!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #560  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    A little bit of me trying to be funny, and a little bit of curiosity how you were going to answer.

    Christianity really seems to have turned your life around in a very positive way. In this world (but not "of this world") seems to be where you are at!
    wow if i didnt know better i would think you are christian lol ha ha!! sorry just messin
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->

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