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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #521  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    So by that rationale, you would also follow the teachings of the Koran, the Tora, or the book of Mormon, all of which surfaced in similar fashion and, by your definition of corroboration, are valid. So what makes the bible more reliable than other similar, older or newer, texts that claim to be revelation from God? They are both transcribed, re-written, edited, and translated by man (or many men). Are they all equally valid even though they espouse dramatically different information? If the bible says one thing, and the Tora says the opposite, how is a religious man to decide what to do? Who to obey? How to live? Who to worship?
    I wasn't speaking to the truthfulness of the Bible in my previous post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you made a statement to the effect that the Bible has been copied over too many times to be reliable. I was merely stating that the copies of the text didn't change the original meaning because we have so many fragments of the originals that we can reference to see that what we're reading now is what was written then. Albeit in a different translation.

    If you agree to that then we can move forward on why the Bible can be seen as more reliable than other ancient texts.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #522  
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmpewter View Post
    Place my vote in the Agnostic column. "God" is Un-knowable. Knowledge is based on Experience.
    So then can religious experiences lead to knowledge?
  3. #523  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    I'll take that as a "No" then. You know nothing about "Knowing God." I would suggest that you study that phrase a bit more.
    yes i know God well enough that He freed me from cigarrettes instantly without any side effects lol oh and from drugs and alcohol .
    Last edited by Shadavis08; 02/19/2010 at 09:27 PM.
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  4. #524  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So then can religious experiences lead to knowledge?
    My experience with religion led to knowledge that it was all myth. (Sorry, it was just a softball thrown out there.)
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  5. #525  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    yes i know God well enough that He freed me from cigarrettes instantly without any side effects lol oh and from drugs and alcohol .
    So I am still curious: Can a Muslim or athiest get into heaven if they live a moral life, or is worshiping the Christian god an entry requirement?
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  6. #526  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You do know, as a follower of Jesus, that the Church did not agree that Jesus was the son of God until the 4th Century A.D., right? Until then, many believed that he was a prophet - in other words, it was decided by a committee. Why are you so certain that the Council of Nicaea wasn't mistaken, and the Muslim view of Jesus as prophet isn't the correct one?
    Actually your statement is blatantly incorrect. In fact, the Church has always understood and taught that Jesus was the Christ.

    "The Word became flesh" is another way of saying that God became man (John 1:14-18).

    What is true is that the Church called the Council of Nicaea to address the Arian Heresy that was plaguing those times. Until then there was no need to address the issue because Christians didn't doubt His Divinity. Just remember that just because something wasn't defined before a particular Council doesn't mean it wasn't believed.
    Last edited by foosball; 02/20/2010 at 12:13 AM.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #527  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Doesn't the fact that all these religions have a different God, or all interpret what God wants of them differently, point to the fact that's it's all made up?

    If you come home to a broken glass table and all 3 of your kids all tell you a different story at least one of them is lying to you.
    Well, there you go. You answered your own question "at least one of them is lying to you." But logic tells you that one could be telling the truth.
  8.    #528  
    If I may, I'd like to "run interference" between the volleys back and forth between Shadavis08 and the others in this recent conversation. rjwerth is taking a view that each of the groups he identified are worshiping some form of the "God" who Abraham was faithful to. If you don't accept Christianity, in a way he is right. If you believe that all of God's revelations are in the Christian Bible (and no revelations are anywhere else) it's logical to take Shadavis08's position. If you are like me, you accept the oral teachings of Jesus to his Apostles and their disciples as inerrant teachings of God, and you believe he founded a church to protect these teachings under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you are then willing to accept the teaching that salvation is through the Christian Church but that God in his mercy may choose to "save" others. I also know Shadavis08 is probably very annoyed by what I'm saying. He likely feels that the Bible is sufficient revelation from God to understand the means of salvation. I don't disagree with that either. Let's just accept that we have different perspectives on who we believe are saved and who are not. The tinder box here is the question of differing beliefs in who God is, who is right, and who is wrong. The differing reactions are because we all want to do "the right thing". I'm pretty confident we are not all going to agree here. Saying your beliefs, your perspective, and why is OK. Saying you believe another is wrong, and why is OK too. When someone "is wrong", try and respectfully ask them to explain their perspective (which you do not have to agree with). I'm sure many of you do not agree with my perspective. -- thanks
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  9. #529  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    What is true is that the Church called the Council of Nicaea to address the Arian Heresy that was plaguing those times. Until then there was no need to address the issue because Christians didn't doubt his Divinity. Just remember that just because something wasn't defined before a particular Council doesn't mean it wasn't believed.
    I don't believe that's correct. The church was divided into factions on the issue. The Arians did not believe in Jesus' divinity, while the Homoousians held the belief that he was son of God. A third group (the Homoiousians) took a middle ground. It wasn't as simple as "the Arians were heretics" - there was genuine disagreement on the issue.

    Constantine strongly felt that there needed to be a unified message in order to allow him to endorse Christianity as the official religion, and they hammered out a consensus.

    History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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  10. #530  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So I am still curious: Can a Muslim or athiest get into heaven if they live a moral life, or is worshiping the Christian god an entry requirement?
    Jesus said " None can enter in but through Him " he also said no one has ever known God unless they knew Him first . there is only one way to heaven and thats by Jesus
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  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #531  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Responses like this are exactly why the "it's about faith, not about the details of the individual religions" falls apart. The invisible guy worshiped by one individual ultimately has to be better than the invisible guy the other person worships.

    You do know, as a follower of Jesus, that the Church did not agree that Jesus was the son of God until the 4th Century A.D., right? Until then, many believed that he was a prophet - in other words, it was decided by a committee. Why are you so certain that the Council of Nicaea wasn't mistaken, and the Muslim view of Jesus as prophet isn't the correct one?
    Not exactly true. Most everyone agreed Jesus was the Son of God. Some, however, believed that the Son of God was not God Himself. The denied the Trinity in preaching a heresy known as Arianism. At any rate, Arianism, in its various forms existed in a minority before the council of Nicaea, after the council, and still exists today. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible outlines a thoroughly Trinitarian doctrine.

    If your answer is "the Bible says so", then I must ask about whether you follow the restrictions against cutting your beard, and/or believe that a slave's disobedience is prohibited by the Bible. Do you just pick and choose, or believe all of it?
    There are very good doctrinal reasons why Christians do not follow Levitical laws. If you'd like, we can discuss those.
  12.    #532  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I don't believe that's correct. The church was divided into factions on the issue. The Arians did not believe in Jesus' divinity, while the Homoousians held the belief that he was son of God. A third group (the Homoiousians) took a middle ground. It wasn't as simple as "the Arians were heretics" - there was genuine disagreement on the issue.

    Constantine strongly felt that there needed to be a unified message in order to allow him to endorse Christianity as the official religion, and they hammered out a consensus.

    History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    You can say "Constantine forced the issue" [if you want] or you can say the Holy Spirit guided the Church in making the correct decision. If God used Constantine to encourage the correct message, that does not necessarily invalidate the message he gave the Church.
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  13. #533  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    Jesus said " None can enter in but through Him " he also said no one has ever known God unless they knew Him first . there is only one way to heaven and thats by Jesus
    That seems to be a rather arbitrary and petty reason to achieve eternal salvation. I would think that Jesus would be more concerned with people living a moral life than worshiping him.
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  14. #535  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I don't believe that's correct. The church was divided into factions on the issue. The Arians did not believe in Jesus' divinity, while the Homoousians held the belief that he was son of God. A third group (the Homoiousians) took a middle ground. It wasn't as simple as "the Arians were heretics" - there was genuine disagreement on the issue.

    Constantine strongly felt that there needed to be a unified message in order to allow him to endorse Christianity as the official religion, and they hammered out a consensus.

    History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    The problem with this line of logic is that it doesn't matter what Constantine or anybody else said. It only matters what the bishops acting in their role as the official Magisterium of the Church said. Anything else is a myth.

    The Society for Orthodox Apologetics: Myths of the Council of Nicaea

    Further:

    All the bishops save five declared themselves ready to subscribe to this formula [Nicene Creed], convinced that it contained the ANCIENT FAITH of the Apostolic Church. The opponents were soon reduced to two, Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais, who were exiled and anathematized. Arius and his writings were also branded with anathema, his books were cast into the fire, and he was exiled to Illyria.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
    Last edited by foosball; 02/20/2010 at 12:17 AM.
  15. #536  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That seems to be a rather arbitrary and petty reason to achieve eternal salvation. I would think that Jesus would be more concerned with people living a moral life than worshiping him.
    that's why he didn't leave it to us to think lol and He said the simple things would confound the wise as well. so...... and you dont have to be prefect because we all make mistakes thats why jesus was sacrificed to atone for our sins and the new covenant did away with the old covenant and sacrifice made every year.
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  16.    #537  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08
    Jesus said " None can enter in but through Him " he also said no one has ever known God unless they knew Him first . there is only one way to heaven and thats by Jesus
    That seems to be a rather arbitrary and petty reason to achieve eternal salvation. I would think that Jesus would be more concerned with people living a moral life than worshiping him.
    Again, let's look at Shadavis08's perspective (especially the Pauline letters of the New Testament). This is an entirely reasonable position for him to take. From his perspective, Christ death on the cross was solely sufficient and the only means of salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I would think that Jesus would be more concerned with people living a moral life than worshiping him.
    Christians are told to be moral, but Shadavis08 might see this more as an effect on your relationship with God than a "reward for doing good".
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  17. #538  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    that's why he didn't leave it to us to think lol and He said the simple things would confound the wise as well..
    I think that's a very insightful view of organized religion......
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  18.    #539  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Good source!
    Agreed.
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  19. #540  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think that's a very insightful view of organized religion......
    just remember , i'm not religious, i'm christian, and there is a difference between the two.
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