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  1. #501  
    300 (lighthearted) Proofs that show God does not exist.

    http://www.tektonics.org/guest/300proof.html
  2.    #502  
    Sorry, I didn't notice this post before. I'll try and answer (at least some of) your questions now:
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer
    It's not against all religions (not even all Christian religions). Maybe we can research this to find out how many are in "this camp".
    I would be interested in finding this out... I think that some christians do and some dont? I would think though that believing in "God" and how he created us, that should be a defenitive No in religion?
    Many Christian denominations would exclude the possibility of evolution theory because they take the words of the Bible literally. (Everything it says is true.) They may or may not consider the meaning of the time (ie: If the Bible would have said: "It's raining cats and dogs", many would not go outside with a shovel after the storm to clean up the mess!). Many things in the Bible have significant symbolic meaning when you consider what's written in the Old Testament in light of what's written in the New Testament. For example, the parting of the Red Sea, the flood, and baptism into the Christian faith all involve water, which was a way of separating Christ's people from the rest of the world and "saving" people protected by God's covenants. Regarding evolution, the Catholic Church teaches that all things created by God and those things not in nature that he reveals to us cannot ever be inconsistent. (If they are, our understanding of one or the other has to be wrong.) The Catholic Church is cautious and careful about what they pronounce. Since evolution remains a theory (though a strongly supportable one), the Church won't come out and say whether it's "right" or "wrong". The Church will simply wait until God reveals enough (through science) to either support or refute the theory of evolution. The Church trusts in the Holy Spirit (which Jesus said has been sent to protect the Church) from making doctrinal errors. So far this has worked for over 2000 years. If the Church were to be proven wrong, I'd become Jewish and await the real Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer
    Another good question. I'd say this probably has to be taken as a real event because it involved a real person at a significant time in salvation history.
    I believe that couldve been a true event, but is it possible that the lengths taken or animals placed were exagerated?
    And does that include only Mammals? Cuz I dont know how the million of different species of insects and fish could be caught and placed on the ark, and the avrg life span of a fly is 2 days, so it's not even possible to reach an ark from the stretches of earth. But I do believe that this did happen but in no way 2 of every creature on earth, even by free will, all animals could not reach or live to reach a central location esp the size of an Ark.
    Some of the story likely has theological meaning and may not be supposed to be taken literally. I've never studied this enough to give a "specific" answer. To me, what's important is that God choose to save Noah and his family, he chose a way to save the animals (which also did not sin), and he made a covenant with Gods people afterward. Someday I will probably study this more deeply. St. Jerome (the monk who translated the entire Bible into Latin around 400AD) said "Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ" and I don't really think God would be pleased with my answer if he were to ask me this today.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer
    We have life forms on Earth that were not destined to believe in God (monkeys, dogs, and prarie-grass, at least). It would be God's choice whether He would desire aliens somewhere other than Earth to believe in Him.
    Good religious philosophy!
    Why would this be though?
    This was really "off the cuff" thinking on my part. Using logic based on what I understand about God through Scripture. I did tell my daughter when one of our cats died, that God will make us happy in Heaven. If God feels our cat will be required for your happiness, then the cat will be there. The cat wouldn't be there on it's own account - only if God so desired. The Bible does not reveal as much about Heaven (except in Revelation, which is a hard book to read and understand, and subject to a lot of misinterpretation).

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post

    ??? Why is "God" refered to as male???
    Could he be asexual? (do not take that as an insult! none intended!)
    Also why would he send "His Son"? Why not a daughter? I can understand at Jesus' time a woman would not be respected, but nor was Jesus' by many!?
    God in the Bible is treated as "Father" and "Son" which are both male. God needed a woman for the one person He chose to be perfect (Mary) so I don't think he had anything against women. Mary (as our spiritual mother in Heaven) acts more like a mother on our behalf. God wants fathers to take the disciplinary and example setting role that God the Father and Jesus showed us. He wants mothers and fathers to work together for the benefit of his family. This is just the model he chose. Some say it was due to historical customs of the time, but I believe God had more reasons like the suitability of each sex for special roles. I don't mean to sound sexist or old fashioned. God gives all of us the same dignity and he clearly does not favor one sex over the other.

    I hope I was able to answer your questions. You managed to get me into a bit of "my philosophy" which is probably OK. Your questions are making me a little more aware of myself too.
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  3. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #503  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    These different religions call God by different names because they believe in different Gods. In some cases these Gods ask different things of the worshipers, different sacrifices and different types of praying. Therefor I do not feel your analogy is correct.
    Not sure which religions you are refering to, as Christians, J E W S, and Muslims all worship the same God....
  4. #504  
    Thanks! Those are great replies! Very PC or RC (Religously Correct) haha
    I enjoy your responses very neutral and I would have probably been more open to religion if I had more neutral conversations instead of debates at a younger age.
    Sorry about your cat passing and if their is a heaven my dog better be there waiting for me when she passes!
    But I still will remain being the best person I can be for the sake of happiness, not for the sake of afterlife. Thats the most I can give until I am proven otherwise by God himself.
    At this point if I were to pray nightly and ask for forgiveness it would just be insurance to get into heaven but it would be hollow prayers... I just think im one of those people God does not want me to "know" about him yet... (if ever, and if he is in existence!)
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    #505  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    God in the Bible is treated as "Father" and "Son" which are both male. God needed a woman for the one person He chose to be perfect (Mary) so I don't think he had anything against women. Mary (as our spiritual mother in Heaven) acts more like a mother on our behalf. God wants fathers to take the disciplinary and example setting role that God the Father and Jesus showed us. He wants mothers and fathers to work together for the benefit of his family. This is just the model he chose. Some say it was due to historical customs of the time, but I believe God had more reasons like the suitability of each sex for special roles. I don't mean to sound sexist or old fashioned. God gives all of us the same dignity and he clearly does not favor one sex over the other.
    Technically, I don't believe it to be probable that God has a gender as there is only one God. We call him Father as that is what Jesus said to do. To help balance the roles of male and female in the Catholic Church, the Church itself is considered female and is often referred to as "Mother Church".
  6. #506  
    @ rjwerth------(Not sure which religions you are refering to, as Christians, J E W S, and Muslims all worship the same God.... )

    thats a lie lol you dont know what your talking about . muslims dont know the one true God that is found in the bible because the only way to know that God is through jesus the son of God. muslims dont know jesus as the son of their god but they know him as a profit of their god which means that is a false god.
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  7. #507  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Technically, I don't believe it to be probable that God has a gender as there is only one God. We call him Father as that is what Jesus said to do. To help balance the roles of male and female in the Catholic Church, the Church itself is considered female and is often referred to as "Mother Church".
    we were created in his exact image lol he has a gender im sure . the word says " man and woman created we them " or male and female, this is what the bible says anyways . even angels have a gender lol and NO its not littles babies ha ha or women for that matter ha ha lol but they(angels) are referred to as male . in appearance anyways
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    #508  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The biggest issue I have with humans worshiping a God is that they are giving up their freedom for no reason at all. Worshiping a God so that you can spend eternity in a comfortable after life requires sacrifice. Sacrifice which limits your ability to be all you can be while your alive. Sacrifice which is ultimately unnecessary and a waste of your time. Time you could of spent living your life on your terms and not those of a mythical God.

    Instead of making choices aimed at getting into a comfortable afterlife (which may or may not exist)...try living your life in the best interests of yourself, your family, friends and community (actual real things that we all share). I promise you the world will be a better place for it.

    -IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Lets use the example of these Fish Fry folks in STL this evening. They are going to Church to eat fish so that they may show God just how much they can sacrifice. This is in the hopes that they will increase their chances of a place in a comfortable afterlife or something to that effect.

    Meanwhile the rest of us are free to use that time for our own choosing. School, philanthropy, dinner with friends (other than fish), sleep, holiday...the list goes on. The point is, we can do what we like, without the threat of holy repercussions.
    I suppose I cannot blame you for thinking this way as there are all sorts of examples of people seeming worrying only about heaven and hell (and don't get me started about the practice of "indulgences"). I can assure you that good Christians do not do good deeds or sacrifice simply for the sake of rewards in the afterlife. That would be a very NON Christian attitude. You seem to want to liken it to the 76 virgins thing and it is certainly not like that. Thinking this way shows ignorance to Christianity.

    Furthermore, no Christian ever "gives up" their freedom when they choose to worship or take part in religious traditions. Their freedom to do what they wish always is there! At any time, one can choose to change religions or avoid religion all together. God gave us free will and we are certainly able to exercise it whenever we wish.
  9. #509  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    @ rjwerth------(Not sure which religions you are refering to, as Christians, J E W S, and Muslims all worship the same God.... )

    thats a lie lol you dont know what your talking about . muslims dont know the one true God that is found in the bible because the only way to know that God is through jesus the son of God. muslims dont know jesus as the son of their god but they know him as a profit of their god which means that is a false god.
    Responses like this are exactly why the "it's about faith, not about the details of the individual religions" falls apart. The invisible guy worshiped by one individual ultimately has to be better than the invisible guy the other person worships.

    You do know, as a follower of Jesus, that the Church did not agree that Jesus was the son of God until the 4th Century A.D., right? Until then, many believed that he was a prophet - in other words, it was decided by a committee. Why are you so certain that the Council of Nicaea wasn't mistaken, and the Muslim view of Jesus as prophet isn't the correct one?

    If your answer is "the Bible says so", then I must ask about whether you follow the restrictions against cutting your beard, and/or believe that a slave's disobedience is prohibited by the Bible. Do you just pick and choose, or believe all of it?
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  10. #510  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    I suppose I cannot blame you for thinking this way as there are all sorts of examples of people seeming worrying only about heaven and hell (and don't get me started about the practice of "indulgences"). I can assure you that good Christians do not do good deeds or sacrifice simply for the sake of rewards in the afterlife. That would be a very NON Christian attitude. You seem to want to liken it to the 76 virgins thing and it is certainly not like that. Thinking this way shows ignorance to Christianity.

    Furthermore, no Christian ever "gives up" their freedom when they choose to worship or take part in religious traditions. Their freedom to do what they wish always is there! At any time, one can choose to change religions or avoid religion all together. God gave us free will and we are certainly able to exercise it whenever we wish.
    by choosing God. And Jesus as my savior i am made more free than anyone not saved could ever be . By choosing to serve God He has freed me from drugs alcohol cigarettes and from sin from death hell and the grave!!!
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  11.    #511  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    At this point if I were to pray nightly and ask for forgiveness it would just be insurance to get into heaven but it would be hollow prayers... I just think im one of those people God does not want me to "know" about him yet... (if ever, and if he is in existence!)
    Funny you should mention this thought at this moment. I just finished reading Romans 8:26-39 which talks about how we are "as infants" (my words translating a concept) in how we pray to God. The Holy Spirit will enter you life if you let it. Prayer is like a "language to God" that we "learn by doing". Romans 8:26 says:
    Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
    This says that the Holy Spirit can take "even sighs" and convey to the God the father what we mean to say. You don't have know God's will for him to know what you need and what you are asking Him for. The passage goes on to talk about "redemptive suffering". We become even closer to Jesus when we participate with his suffering by uniting his suffering (on the cross) with our own. It's pretty simple to enter into the covenant of God's people by simply believing in and trusting Jesus and his saving power. While the "official" way of entering the (Catholic) church is through baptism, the Church also recognizes "baptism of desire" under special circumstances. Catholics (and some other churches) see baptism as the normal means for entering the church. Many other christian churches see it as a symbol and they see the "believing" part (trusting in Jesus to save you) as the important part. I'm sure it seems especially hard to "believe" in a God who (in your heart) you do not even believe exists. As I said earlier, even without being a Christian, you can ask Mary to intercede for you to bring your prayers (or groanings) to God. If God does not exist no harm is done in trying, but if He exists and you find Him I think you will be much happier.
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  12. #512  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    by choosing God. And Jesus as my savior i am made more free than anyone not saved could ever be . By choosing to serve God He has freed me from drugs alcohol cigarettes and from sin from death hell and the grave!!!
    So I've just got to know: those Muslims, who worship the "false god" - can they remain Muslims and get into heaven if they live a moral life? Since I'm an atheist, can I live a moral life and go to Heaven? Can my (non-baptized) kids?

    I'm curious to know if your faith values living a moral life, or worship according to specific tenets.
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    #513  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    @ rjwerth------(Not sure which religions you are refering to, as Christians, J E W S, and Muslims all worship the same God.... )

    thats a lie lol you dont know what your talking about . muslims dont know the one true God that is found in the bible because the only way to know that God is through jesus the son of God. muslims dont know jesus as the son of their god but they know him as a profit of their god which means that is a false god.
    Do you even understand what it means to "Know God?" My statement was that they worship the same God. There are 100's of references to this FACT: Christians and Muslims both worship the God of Abraham. You are making a reference to "being saved" which really has no place in this thread. Furthermore, your logic makes no sense whatsoever.
  14. #514  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Responses like this are exactly why the "it's about faith, not about the details of the individual religions" falls apart. The invisible guy worshiped by one individual ultimately has to be better than the invisible guy the other person worships.

    You do know, as a follower of Jesus, that the Church did not agree that Jesus was the son of God until the 4th Century A.D., right? Until then, many believed that he was a prophet - in other words, it was decided by a committee. Why are you so certain that the Council of Nicaea wasn't mistaken, and the Muslim view of Jesus as prophet isn't the correct one?

    If your answer is "the Bible says so", then I must ask about whether you follow the restrictions against cutting your beard, and/or believe that a slave's disobedience is prohibited by the Bible. Do you just pick and choose, or believe all of it?
    thats why you understand nothing you always run back to cut your beard you have to follow this and that ha ha . and I know Jesus is the son of God and will not ever be turned from it, ever. God has revealed Jesus in my heart and mind and i know the truth will set me free just like it will set you free. do you even know what sets Christians apart from all other religions ?? do you ?? well we believe that Jesus died and was raised from the dead. and there were witnesses to the whole event and they wrote about it too lol. and not only that but the bible can not be proven wrong and its is proven to be historically correct in everything it describes
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  15.    #515  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    At this point if I were to pray nightly and ask for forgiveness it would just be insurance to get into heaven but it would be hollow prayers...
    I meant to also say something about the last two verses in the Romans 8:26-39 passage. They say:
    38: For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
    39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    I have to admit myself that sometimes my mind is just "too dense" to "get" the Bible. My mind starts to wonder when I get about as far as the word "death' in the above passage. I'd take "death" to mean "spiritual death". Jesus descended into Hell after he expired on the cross and freed many (perhaps all) from bondage by Satan. The passage says that God can get to you if you want Him.
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  16. #516  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Do you even understand what it means to "Know God?" My statement was that they worship the same God. There are 100's of references to this FACT: Christians and Muslims both worship the God of Abraham. You are making a reference to "being saved" which really has no place in this thread. Furthermore, your logic makes no sense whatsoever.
    thats a lie ,they follow not the same god as i follow the only way to know God is through his son . if Jesus is not Gods' son in their beliefs then they follow a different god than myself. it does not matter if they claim its the same god or not lol
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  17. #517  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    God has revealed Jesus in my heart and mind and i know the truth will set me free just like it will set you free. do you even know what sets Christians apart from all other religions ?? do you ?? well we believe that Jesus died and was raised from the dead.
    Yes, I was raised Roman-Catholic, taught catechism as a teen...I was brainwashed since birth as a good Italian boy.


    and there were witnesses to the whole event and they wrote about it too lol. and not only that but the bible can not be proven wrong and its is proven to be historically correct in everything it describes
    You do realize that half of the canonical writings were written by people who never actually met Jesus (Mark and Luke), right? And that they weren't written independently - Matthew and Luke were thought to use the Gospel of Mark as a source? They weren't examples of first hand accounts, or independently verifiable.

    Actually, there is no evidence of the Bible being historically correct. It's simply what you were told, but is factually incorrect. Like many books written decades later, relying on stories passed down in an oral tradition, they are subject to human frailties of memory, inaccuracies, etc.

    Your faith is admirable, but that's far from saying the word of the Bible is an absolute truth.
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/19/2010 at 09:16 PM.
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  18. #518  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Do you even understand what it means to "Know God?" My statement was that they worship the same God. There are 100's of references to this FACT: Christians and Muslims both worship the God of Abraham. You are making a reference to "being saved" which really has no place in this thread. Furthermore, your logic makes no sense whatsoever.
    Oh yeah just to set the record straight i said nothing about being saved in that post you copied lol ha ha but you brought that up . wow funny !!
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    #519  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    Oh yeah just to set the record straight i said nothing about being saved in that post you copied lol ha ha but you brought that up . wow funny !!
    I'll take that as a "No" then. You know nothing about "Knowing God." I would suggest that you study that phrase a bit more.
  20. #520  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Yes, I was raised Roman-Catholic, taught catechism as a teen...I was brainwashed since birth as a good Italian boy.




    You do realize that much of the gospel writings were written by people who never actually met Jesus (including Mark and Luke), right?

    Actually, there is no evidence of the Bible being historically correct. It's simply what you were told, but is factually incorrect.
    oh yeah you think !! ha ha better study up more on your history then lol. there is to many documents in too many different places that are all way to close to dispute in my mind . not only that. even the muslim koran has many things correct as pertaining to history lol
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