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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #401  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It must be ignorance and misrepresentation - other perspectives obviously cannot be considered. After all, God says so in the Bible. This is why conversations like this ultimately lead nowhere.
    No, that's not what I'm talking about. In the example I mentioned--the meat issue, that is a Religious practice--a real thing happening on earth as part of religious tradition. In fact--this ISN'T said in the bible to my knowledge.

    Of course, the claim you want to try and force on me--that other perspectives cannot be considered is not based on anything I said, so kindly try and be accurate will you?

    I was merely pointing out where things claimed were factually incorrect. If that doesn't work for whatever argument you would prefer to make, I'm sorry, but I can't help you.

    Conversations like this lead nowhere, because many people (perhaps you) aren't interested in an honest discussion, but rather simply want to attack something they dislike. When people flock to a thread in order to engage in little more than mockery--over something they claim is meaningless and irrelevant to them, THAT'S why threads "go nowhere" because people are more interested in making noise akin to laughing at their own jokes than to engaging in some sort of sincere exchange.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 02/19/2010 at 10:25 AM.
  2. #402  
    So based on 11 exceptions to the rule, ignoring the first edition of the holly book, looking only at some Christian denominations and making some generalizations...I'm wrong.

    Sounds like a typical religious justification.

    Open your minds people. You just might find you're the masters of your own universe. I would bet that not living every day wondering if your daily decisions will get you into heaven or not would be very liberating.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Let's take the "Sabbath"--which I suppose is what you are talking about by not working on weekends. The Sabbath is Saturday in Judaism, and while that tradition was somewhat transferred to Sunday (due to Easter), that prohibition really doesn't exist in the New Testament--like many of the old prohibitions. The Old Covenant was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus (in Christian Belief).
    KAM
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #403  
    Quote Originally Posted by glevitan View Post
    Listen guys....this argument is actually quite simple. Science and Religion are both pretty much faith based explanations to the universe. There are TWO major differences....Science evolves on a daily basis and doesnt claim to be foolproof. Relgions views evolution as heresy. (pun intended). In face there hasnt been one incidinet in thousands of years where a religious theory was reufted by evidence! And the second major difference is that....religion sumblimates...it forces itself upon nonbeleivers. Through power!! Religion punishes religion forces people to act a certain way. Science does not! Science is fallible religion is not.

    If you choose religion, i suspect that you need infallible answers imemdiately and cannot bear the thought of being insiginifcant. Nothing wrong with that part....just dont force others to agree!
    Well, I can only speak for myself, as one Religious believer, but what you forward as fact does not represent me or my religious views at all.

    Let's take your pun...my Religion actually believes in Evolution. I don't believe in forcing my Religion on others by force, and in fact, the by definition (although in history this was violated--a lot) one cannot be forcibly converted to my Religion.

    I'm sure some people believe that Religion provides them with infallible answers, but for me, it actually asks more questions. Insignificant...compared to what? Obviously, compared to God (if you are a believer) you reinforce your insignificance by comparison.

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    So based on 11 exceptions to the rule, ignoring the first edition of the holly book, looking only at some Christian denominations and making some generalizations...I'm wrong.

    Sounds like a typical religious justification.

    Open your minds people. You just might find you're the masters of your own universe. I would bet that not living every day wondering if your daily decisions will get you into heaven or not would be very liberating.
    No, you are wrong, because you don't know what you are talking about in many cases. You simply aren't educated about certain religious practices--which is natural for you, not being a member of that religion. The fact remains--you are speaking from a standpoint of ignorance in at least a few cases here. There is no need to get cross with me, because I'm sharing more accurate information. If you aren't interested in having accurate information and are intent on forwarding false claims in order to justify your ridicule, that is your failing, and you can expect people to correct you.

    You'll notice that I didn't attempt to "correct" you on saying that God doesn't exist, because that is not a factual matter that one can prove--it is simply your belief, and mine disagreeing doesn't invalidate yours. Speaking from ignorance about factual issues (like the meat one) IS not a matter of belief--its a practice in the real world that you are apparently ill-informed about.

    I said nothing of the sort, so your claim strikes me as ridiculous. If you are so eager to forward your accusation, at least try to have some sort of claim to back it up with.

    You've simply repeated your mantra--calling whatever one says "typical religious justification" which clearly seems unrelated to anything I said, which was merely providing you with some simple facts--or at least my understanding of the things that you distorted.

    It's interesting that someone who is relying on such distortions and inaccurate characterizations is telling others to "open their minds."

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 02/19/2010 at 09:53 AM.
  5. #405  
    I asked God to reveal it's self to me just now to prove it's existence - FACT
    God did not reveal it's self to me just now to prove it's existence - FACT

    I asked God to post in the Pre Central form to prove it's existence (did this by writing the request on paper, you know, to make it more formal) - FACT
    God did not post in the Pre Central form to prove it's existence - FACT

    These are my facts.
  6. #406  
    A Pew Research Poll from last year put the number of scientists who believe in God at 33%
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I asked God to reveal it's self to me just now to prove it's existence - FACT
    God did not reveal it's self to me just now to prove it's existence - FACT

    I asked God to post in the Pre Central form to prove it's existence (did this by writing the request on paper, you know, to make it more formal) - FACT
    God did not post in the Pre Central form to prove it's existence - FACT

    These are my facts.
    And?

    FACT: I didn't eat Breakfast today, I only had some Tea.

    FACT: I think a lot of people here are strange.

    FACT: I have to go to the Bathroom right now, and I will assume that God wants me to unless he tells me otherwise.

    Those are my FACTS.

    What if a Poster sporting the name "God" posted something? Would that have made you believe?

    KAM
  8. #408  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Speaking from ignorance about factual issues (like the meat one) IS not a matter of belief--its a practice in the real world that you are apparently ill-informed about.
    First of all. Fish is meat. All this craziness about how it's flesh is crazy talk.

    There are people in Missouri that eat fish on Friday. It's going on all around me. I have seen it. They do this because they feel they need to because of their religious beliefs. Beliefs they have based on what they feel to be the teachings of a higher power (lets call the power God). Whether these teachings come from a book, by word of mouth or e-mail, I don't really care. The fact of the matter is the God believers in Missouri are eating fish on Friday because they think God wants them to.

    Based on how completely nutty that is I say God isn't real.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/19/2010 at 10:14 AM.
  9. #409  
    Nope...I asked that it post on or before 10:03am local time.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    And?
    What if a Poster sporting the name "God" posted something? Would that have made you believe?
    KAM
  10. #410  
    Quote Originally Posted by mperkinsky View Post
    A Pew Research Poll from last year put the number of scientists who believe in God at 33%
    Yes, vs. 83% of the general public:



    It's interesting to note that scientists are far less likely to be Catholic or Protestant (particularly evangelicals) than the population as a whole, but more likely to be Jewish:

    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  11. #411  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    And?

    FACT: I didn't eat Breakfast today, I only had some Tea.

    FACT: I think a lot of people here are strange.

    FACT: I have to go to the Bathroom right now, and I will assume that God wants me to unless he tells me otherwise.

    Those are my FACTS.

    KAM
    ......and with that you have proven to all of us just how ludicrous the idea that God exists is.

    I thank you.
    The thread can now be closed.
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #412  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    First of all. Fish is meat. All this crassness about how it's flesh is crazy talk.
    Um...what?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    There are people in Missouri that eat fish on Friday. It's going on all around me. I have seen it. They do this because they feel they need to because of their religious beliefs. Beliefs they have based on what they feel to be the teachings of a higher power (lets call the power God). Whether these teachings come from a book, by word of mouth or e-mail, I don't really care. The fact of the matter is the God believers in Missouri are eating fish on Friday because they think God wants them to.
    I don't think you are following me. The tradition of not eating the flesh of warm blooded animals on Friday (commonly referred to not eating meat) is ONE means of sacrifice and penance that is encouraged during lent. This particular practice is not the point--it is merely one means of accomplishing this.

    What you are actually doing is misrepresenting the religious reasoning behind something, because you seem to not understand the reasoning behind it. Do you know why these people in Missouri aren't eating "meat" or are you assuming it? Additionally, I have no doubt that some people even in a Religion have a poor understanding of many of the detailed reasons, which is a very poor thing, but that's reality.

    This lack of understanding--of yours or theirs doesn't lead you to an informed understanding of the actual situation. I'm sure you'd not have any more respect or care about the actual situation however, because this is incidental, and has little to do with your overall chosen belief--the much larger governing issue. Rather--this is just an example of your apparent need to criticize. It just so happens in this case, that you have a poor understanding of the thing you dislike or find "nutty."

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Based on how completely nutty that is I say God isn't real.
    Good for you.

    KAM
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #413  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    ......and with that you have proven to all of us just how ludicrous the idea that God exists is.

    I thank you.
    The thread can now be closed.
    No, I've not proven anything. I merely wished to demonstrate the inane nature of your "facts." Apparently you think that you can tease God in the manner you might on a playground into playing the game that you wish.

    However, you are free to leave this thread if you've got nothing of substance to add. I never found your posts (which I largely have disagreed with) to be so...nonsensical, but a lot of what you say here seems to be really flippant and meaningless.

    I'm not sure if you intend this, but I suggest that if you've got nothing to add except ridicule (especially inaccurate) you might want to find another thread--one that wasn't intended to have any serious discussion.

    KAM
  14. #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, I can only speak for myself, as one Religious believer, but what you forward as fact does not represent me or my religious views at all.

    Let's take your pun...my Religion actually believes in Evolution. I don't believe in forcing my Religion on others by force, and in fact, the by definition (although in history this was violated--a lot) one cannot be forcibly converted to my Religion.

    I'm sure some people believe that Religion provides them with infallible answers, but for me, it actually asks more questions. Insignificant...compared to what? Obviously, compared to God (if you are a believer) you reinforce your insignificance by comparison.

    KAM
    Unfortunately you are the exception and not the rule. And for that I commend you. Like i said....both are faith based explanations and what you choose to put your faith in is soley your choice....and having an intelligent open mind like you do is the key. Wether its science or religion!
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #415  
    Quote Originally Posted by glevitan View Post
    Unfortunately you are the exception and not the rule. And for that I commend you. Like i said....both are faith based explanations and what you choose to put your faith in is soley your choice....and having an intelligent open mind like you do is the key. Wether its science or religion!
    Well, oddly enough, I've experience much more hatred from other Christians than I typically have from Atheists (which a majority of my friends are oddly enough). That being said, I suggest that perhaps the loudest of the Religious believers tend to be like you say.

    I'd suggest that many more Religious believers share my views, but because they basically mind their own business, you don't hear much about them, and therefore it is easy to think they don't exist, or are the tiny minority.

    I agree--there is a large degree of faith used by people of all sorts--religious or not. Unfortunately, many will not admit that.

    KAM
  16. #416  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    What you are actually doing is misrepresenting the religious reasoning behind something, because you seem to not understand the reasoning behind it.
    You are right, I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I don't need to understand the reasoning behind it. What I do know is that this group of believers are eating fish today directly related to the fact that they believe in a higher power. If they did not believe in this higher power then they wouldn't be eating fish today (well okay, some would due to statistical probability but you get what I'm saying).

    This leads to a large group of people doing doing what amounts to something very crazy....eating fish on Friday to make the lord happy. I feel this to disprove the existence of their God.
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #417  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    You are right, I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I don't need to understand the reasoning behind it. What I do know is that this group of believers are eating fish today directly related to the fact that they believe in a higher power. If they did not believe in this higher power then they wouldn't be eating fish today (well okay, some would due to statistical probability but you get what I'm saying).

    This leads to a large group of people doing doing what amounts to something very crazy. I feel this to disprove the existence of their God.
    Well, your first paragraph's point is true.

    However, it being crazy is simply your accusation, which relies on assuming that your chosen belief is correct. Your argument is circular. Let me demonstrate how.

    You don't believe in God, so what someone else engaging in a religious practice is "Crazy." Doing crazy things is proof that disproves God. That's my understanding of what you've just stated. Am I incorrect?

    You are merely stating an opinion that self-supports what you already concluded. I'm not sure why you are thinking this is saying much.

    Bottom line--if that's what you "feel" well, there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise. That's the conclusion you walked in here with, and clearly you aim to keep it. Enjoy.

    KAM
  18. #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    However, you are free to leave this thread if you've got nothing of substance to add. I never found your posts (which I largely have disagreed with) to be so...nonsensical, but a lot of what you say here seems to be really flippant and meaningless.
    If the only way to prove God exists is to first believe in it/him/her then I don't see why you'd have a problem with flippant, meaningless or nonsensical arguments.

    You do realize that you will never believe that God doesn't exist and that I will never believe that God does exist, right? The very fact that all you need is faith, to prove to a religious person that God exists, is proof enough of that.
  19. #419  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    You also need to look at the fact that there is viable proof of Jesus being alive in the time the Bible states he is and, that he was put to death on a cross. His body was also missing from the grave 3 days later. This is written by "secular" historians from the time. These other religions can not back up what they teach with anything but stories. At least the Bible can be said to shown to be historicaly correct.

    After this is when the faith part of christianity come into play. But that is more than can be said for most other ancient religions.
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    That's an interesting point. Would you have any sources as a reference?
    Actually, my only reference at this time (don't care to do exhaustive research) is common sense. The printing press is roughly 500 years old. All translations and reproductions of the bible during the first 1400 years of its existence would have been done by hand. All translations from its original language to its current form would also be third person and by hand. If I translated a science text book from Greek to 10 other languages by hand, would you trust my handiwork (pun intended)? Then, lets say people do this thousands and thousands of times over hundreds of years...would you trust those translations and reproductions to be an accurate representation of the original text that is now thousands of years old?

    I'm looking forward to your thoughts.
    Last edited by joshaccount; 02/19/2010 at 12:43 PM.
  20. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #420  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If the only way to prove God exists is to first believe in it/him/her then I don't see why you'd have a problem with flippant, meaningless or nonsensical arguments.

    You do realize that you will never believe that God doesn't exist and that I will never believe that God does exist, right? The very fact that all you need is faith, to prove to a religious person that God exists, is proof enough of that.
    I don't have a particular problem with flippant posts, I'm just wondering why itis relevant.

    As to your second paragraph...no, either position could be changed. Of course, I can only speak from my own view, which includes thinking about these possibilities. You assume that I am a practitioner of blind faith perhaps.

    KAM

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