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  1.    #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    Anyone have any insight on Anselm's ontological argument a few pages back? Curious to see what others make of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    I like how St. Anselm, a medieval philosopher proposed his ontological argument and follows as such:

    (1) God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
    (2) If God is that than which no greater can be conceived then there is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
    Therefore:
    (3) There is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
    (4) If God does not exist then there is something greater than God that can be imagined.
    Therefore:
    (5) God exists.
    My first reaction was one of "that's too simplistic to be true" (or "useful")
    If I define God in my imagination, then he is real as long as I imagine him.
    My second thought was that for God to be the greatest thing I could imagine, then He would have to have the greatest purpose I could imagine.
    • Creating, operating, synchronizing, and maintaining the universe in which everything is satisfied and nothing dies is the greatest thing I can imagine.
    • Since this does not exist on the Earth I live, if God exists, then He has to have a greater purpose than what I can see.
    • Therefore, if God exists, then Heaven exists.


    I'm not sure I get Anselm's ontological argument solely on it's own. It does seem useful as a building block in combination with other possible arguments (like what I did above). Let me try some more below:

    I'm compelled to think that if a God exists, He has a purpose. If He wants me to know His purpose, He has to tell me. For me to be sure this revelation is from Him, it has to be greater than what any man could construct or need.

    If I can find such a revelation with these characteristics, I can reasonably conclude that this God exists, and that I exist for His purposes.

    I expect someone here to blow gaping holes in my ego (and newly practiced reasoning skills) in about 30 seconds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    To my knowledge Anselm's argument has yet to been disproved. Correct me if I am wrong.
    i wouldn't know if you are wrong, but you are lessening the possibility of that by asking.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2.    #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrowland View Post
    What came first? My Kyocera Palm Pilot cell phone did. Without it we all wouldn't be HERE today.
    They sucked. (I did not have one, but a coworker back then did.) I liked my Treo 300 much better than her "phone" if you could even call that thing a phone. To mention that thing in the context of whether deities exist is a sacrilege!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by cdritch24 View Post
    The best explanation of there being so many religions I have ever read comes from Robert Fulghum, he is an author and a minister. He explains that God presents himself to many different cultures in many different forms (in a way that each culture may understand). He compares God to water by saying.

    "Water is everywhere and in all living things; we cannot be seperated from water. No water, no life. Period. Water comes in many forms - liquid, vapor, ice, snow, fog, rain, hail. But no matter the form, it’s still water."
    So are you saying that Horus, for example, was also the Son of God? His story began being told 3000 years before Christ - was he a different person, or was the Horus story melded with the Jesus one? People have been posting the accuracy of the names / dates / locations of the Jesus story, and the presence of an earlier Son of God would change Christianity completely.
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  4. groovy's Avatar
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    #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Most of these claims came from Gerald Massey by way of Tom Harpur whose work has been thoroughly discredited by modern Egyptologists. Let's take a look at some of this:

    1. Both were conceived of a virgin.
    Actually, Horus was born of Isis and her brother/husband Osiris by way of a prosthetic member.

    2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
    Depending on the version, Osiris also sired Anubis.

    3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
    Horus' mother was Isis.

    4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
    Horus' father/uncle was Osiris whose brother was Set (again, depending on the version of the myth). Some accounts have Anubis as the son of Set and others the son of Osiris and still other later accounts have Set and Horus being the same. Also, Osiris father was Seb or Geb but not Horus'. So, the link seems to be very tenuous verging on silly when you consider that Joseph was one of the most common male names in First Century Judea.

    5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
    True enough, but what deity isn't?

    6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
    Horus was born in the Nile Delta. He is also born with divine powers and flew up to the sky upon his birth. Jesus was born in the normal manner with no airborne departure.

    Well, it goes on from there.
  5. #385  
    Not really. Unless you can provide factual evidence that Mary was a virgin, that he rose again from the dead, that he is the son of God. You seemed to imply that Christianity was based in factual evidence. It's my understanding that it's based on faith.
    And to make it more complicated, the gospels don't agree on pretty major points, such as:

    • The Virgin Birth is only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels
    • The Ascension is only in 2 of the 4 as well.
    • Only John describes Jesus as a divine being; the other 3 emphasize his humanity.
    • Matthew and Luke describe different lineages for Jesus
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  6. #386  
    I don't see how you figure these are in opposition to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And to make it more complicated, the gospels don't agree on pretty major points, such as:

    • The Virgin Birth is only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels
    • The Ascension is only in 2 of the 4 as well.
    • Only John describes Jesus as a divine being; the other 3 emphasize his humanity.
    • Matthew and Luke describe different lineages for Jesus
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And to make it more complicated, the gospels don't agree on pretty major points, such as:

    • The Virgin Birth is only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels
    • The Ascension is only in 2 of the 4 as well.
    • Only John describes Jesus as a divine being; the other 3 emphasize his humanity.
    • Matthew and Luke describe different lineages for Jesus
    How are the first three disagreements? Regarding the forth, there are several theories regarding the differing genealogies but the most widely accepted is that Matthew traces the genealogy through Mary and Luke through Joseph. They both agree on the lineage to David, which seems to have been the most important point.
  8. #388  
    Yes,
    One traces back from Joseph.
    The other from Mary.
    The Christ had to come thru the line of David.
    Jesus is traced backed from both lines. Even though Joseph was actually his Step Father.
  9. #389  
    I think in order for this argument to be right, one has to focus on one religon cause, most religons have diffrent views of god

    or atleast define the god we are debating upon
  10. #390  
    Very theoretical discussion....but it's the application that's important.

  11. #391  
    I suppose you could say that God is real but only in the sense of God being a concept, an idea, a myth, a state of mind. Some people have gone to far and think God is actually real - that is that God exists in physical reality. God is a concept, there is no real 'God' who exists physically in the universe. As a concept the idea of God can be useful (in your personal life perhaps or as a tool to control large groups of people). However if you take it to far and begin to think that God is real you will have all sorts of problems; like thinking that there is no such thing as evolution, that there was a talking snake in the garden of Eden, that there was a garden of Eden, that Adam and Eve were real people, that a man walked on the surface of a sea, not working on weekends, the inability to enjoy p0rn, homosexual hate, the belief that fish isn't meat, the crazy idea that 75 virgins would be a good time, and on and on.....
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/19/2010 at 08:43 AM.
  12. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I suppose you could say that God is real but only in the sense of God being a concept, an idea, a myth, a state of mind. Some people have gone to far and think God is actually real - that is that God exists in physical reality. God is a concept, there is no real 'God' who exists physically in the universe. As a concept the idea of God can be useful (in your personal life perhaps or as a tool to control large groups of people). However if you take it to far and begin to think that God is real you will have all sorts of problems; like thinking that there is no such thing as evolution, that there was a talking snake in the garden of Eden, that there was a garden of Eden, that Adam and Eve were real people, that a man walked on the surface of a sea, not working on weekends, the inability to enjoy p0rn, homosexual hate, the belief that fish isn't meat, the crazy idea that 75 virgins would be a good time, and on and on.....

    Show me in the Bible where it says to not work on weekends, or to hate homosexuals, or that 75 virgins are a good idea. Don't spew ignorance in the face of a good debate. If you want to bring quality fact to the debate please do. But this is not even close to any religious teaching out there.
  13. #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    ...this is not even close to any religious teaching out there.
    Hey dude....whether the Bible or Qur'an or some other religious text says it or not isn't important. What is important is that worshipers of one god or another are believing and/or doing the things I just mentioned....or at least they are in Missouri, USA.

    I would also suggest that if your looking for "good" debate on the god myth the off topic area of Pre Central might not be the first place to go :-)
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I suppose you could say that God is real but only in the sense of God being a concept, an idea, a myth, a state of mind. Some people have gone to far and think God is actually real - that is that God exists in physical reality. God is a concept, there is no real 'God' who exists physically in the universe. As a concept the idea of God can be useful (in your personal life perhaps or as a tool to control large groups of people). However if you take it to far and begin to think that God is real you will have all sorts of problems; like thinking that there is no such thing as evolution, that there was a talking snake in the garden of Eden, that there was a garden of Eden, that Adam and Eve were real people, that a man walked on the surface of a sea, not working on weekends, the inability to enjoy p0rn, homosexual hate, the belief that fish isn't meat, the crazy idea that 75 virgins would be a good time, and on and on.....
    I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but you are demonstrating ignorance about quite a number of things here. I think it is important to realize that your perception isn't representing things in an accurate way. I think you are doing this in order to justify your chosen views, which isn't necessary. You are free to dislike anything, so I don't see why you must resort to misrepresentations to do it.

    As far as the Meat issue. Actually (I am looking for the link--do not have it handy) I believe the actual prohibition is from eating the Flesh of warm blooded animals. While this is commonly referred to not eating "meat" this is really a short-cut statement.

    So, "the belief that fish isn't meat" isn't really accurate--for example. You simply don't understand things beyond what is commonly stated, and to be fair--many Catholics probably don't either. Of course, the issue isn't really about meat anyway--its about some form of penance or sacrifice (as minor as this is).

    That's the problem I guess I have--not that someone choose to not believe in God or not follow a Religion, but that they rely so heavily on falsehoods, or simply don't bother to be accurate--which is often used as a means of ridiculing people who do adhere to religions. I can't say if that is your particular goal, and I don't find what you are saying to be particularly hostile, just poorly informed.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 02/19/2010 at 09:33 AM.
  15. #395  
    Listen guys....this argument is actually quite simple. Science and Religion are both pretty much faith based explanations to the universe. There are TWO major differences....Science evolves on a daily basis and doesnt claim to be foolproof. Relgions views evolution as heresy. (pun intended). In face there hasnt been one incidinet in thousands of years where a religious theory was reufted by evidence! And the second major difference is that....religion sumblimates...it forces itself upon nonbeleivers. Through power!! Religion punishes religion forces people to act a certain way. Science does not! Science is fallible religion is not.

    If you choose religion, i suspect that you need infallible answers imemdiately and cannot bear the thought of being insiginifcant. Nothing wrong with that part....just dont force others to agree!
  16. #396  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Show me in the Bible where it says to not work on weekends, or to hate homosexuals, or that 75 virgins are a good idea. Don't spew ignorance in the face of a good debate. If you want to bring quality fact to the debate please do. But this is not even close to any religious teaching out there.
    Really? Was he only talking about Christianity and the Bible? There actually are other religious teachings out there. Obviously, the 75 virgins thing was from Islam, and the Jewish faith observes a non-working Sabbath (as do some Christians). Maybe you could widen your perspective and realize that this conversation isn't all about your particular faith.

    Additionally, MANY folks have cherry-picked Bible passages as justification for hating homosexuals. The whole "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" brilliance, remember?
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  17. #397  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but you are demonstrating ignorance about quite a number of things here. I think it is important to realize that your perception isn't representing things in an accurate way. I think you are doing this in order to justify your chosen views, which isn't necessary. You are free to dislike anything, so I don't see why you must resort to misrepresentations to do it.

    KAM
    It must be ignorance and misrepresentation - other perspectives obviously cannot be considered. After all, God says so in the Bible. This is why conversations like this ultimately lead nowhere.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #398  
    These reasons show us God is NOT real. Here we go:

    1. There is no Geological proof of the great flood.
    2. Adam and Eve could not have existed because fossil records CLEARLY show that dinosaurs and earlier forms of life came 3 BILLION years before humans.
    3. Evolution has shown that we developed from apes, we haven't just stayed the same.
    4. The fact that there are religions older than Christianity, why would Jesus come only recently, when humans have existed for roughly 2 Million years.
    5. 'Angels' and messengers from God seem to only have appeared 2000 years ago, and very frequently, why don't they any more?
    6. There are bad things in the world, why doesn't God stop them, if he loves us with all his heart? Letting someone suffer relentlessly, when you have the power to stop the pain easily, is not love.
    7. A woman cannot have a baby and still be a virgin, simple as that.
    8. There are things that ARE impossible, even to God, such as: you cannot add 2 and 2 to equal 198, you cannot take 6 away from 2 without equaling a negative number.
    9. If god is so forgiving, why did he create a hell?
    10. Why are children born dead, and with diseases and disabilities, they didn't do anything wrong did they?
  19. #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Show me in the Bible where it says to not work on weekends, or to hate homosexuals, or that 75 virgins are a good idea.
    Christianity isn't the only religion in the world. It's just the one that most people in the USA are willing to believe in.
  20. KAM1138
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    #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Hey dude....whether the Bible or Qur'an or some other religious text says it or not isn't important. What is important is that worshipers of one god or another are believing and/or doing the things I just mentioned....or at least they are in Missouri, USA.

    I would also suggest that if your looking for "good" debate on the god myth the off topic area of Pre Central might not be the first place to go :-)
    Well, can you blame Religion which does not advocate something for people doing it anyway?

    Let's take the "Sabbath"--which I suppose is what you are talking about by not working on weekends. The Sabbath is Saturday in Judaism, and while that tradition was somewhat transferred to Sunday (due to Easter), that prohibition really doesn't exist in the New Testament--like many of the old prohibitions. The Old Covenant was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus (in Christian Belief).

    KAM

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