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  1. #21  
    Scientific premise: Science can reveal to us the truth.

    Religious premise: Faith can reveal to us the truth.

    We are both in search of truth. Why is it that we have to have such animosity towards each other? Religious people often take shortcuts with their logic and do poor methodology. Scientific people often discount theories they don't agree with, and are just as close-minded.

    What I have found is the true scholars of each side have great respect for each other. It's the partially-learned that love to hurl the insults.
  2. #22  
    "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear"
    -Thomas Jefferson-

    Im not an atheist, but i also dont follow a religion blindly. Im a realist, i look at all the angles, and determine what i believe based on the evidence presented. Science has yet to prove everything, so i cant completely dismiss the existence of a "God" or "Gods"

    However, i see nothing wrong with many of todays religions. At the heart of most of them, is that mankind should be good, be at peace with each other. Thats just my interpretation though. The ironic thing is that history has shown us that religion has been heavily involved in so many wars an conflicts.

    food for thought:
    A Lie told enough times, and heard by as many as possible without opposition, eventually becomes fact to the masses. "Fact" doesnt always equal truth, sometimes its just a lie thats undisputed.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    wait can we define both god and what existence is first?

    once we find consensus, then we can work on creating our proof.
    I would postulate that we are talking about the Christian God, but is this thread for ANY god? Anything can be (and pretty much has been) a god. But the one that usually gets the most attention, be it negative or positive, seems to be the God of the Bible. Maybe that says something in and of itself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That might prove that people feel the need for comfort in the face of impending death - which of course is a pretty good explanation for the development of God and religion in the first place.
    The ability of a person to create something bigger than him/herself in the moments of impending doom instead of actively pursuing the scientific process to solve the problem may also say something...

    __

    Here is a good link to add to your list, sudoer. Its reasons.org and is a scientific approach to proving Christianity.

    This thread (so far) is definitely a very well-mannered one! Kudos!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by GarrettQ View Post
    ...

    However, i see nothing wrong with many of todays religions. At the heart of most of them, is that mankind should be good, be at peace with each other. Thats just my interpretation though. The ironic thing is that history has shown us that religion has been heavily involved in so many wars an conflicts.
    Actually, the struggle for power, money, or in one case, a woman underlies most wars. Religion has been the cause for some, but not most.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Actually, the struggle for power, money, or in one case, a woman underlies most wars. Religion has been the cause for some, but not most.
    Not to start arguing with you, but i said "many", not "most". I actually wrote "most" before publishing the post, but i changed it because I dont know nearly enough history to say most wars are because of religion. But i do know several were.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post

    The ability of a person to create something bigger than him/herself in the moments of impending doom instead of actively pursuing the scientific process to solve the problem may also say something...
    Who's to say that person isn't simply using the word God in its exclamatory form?

    I've often said the words "Oh God" or "God that's stupid" in response to given situations without actually thinking about God in a religious context.
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  7. #27  
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe or not believe, but i resent the hypocrites that preach this and preach that and tell you how to live your life while committing their own sins (of which they preached against).
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by GarrettQ View Post
    Not to start arguing with you, but i said "many", not "most". I actually wrote "most" before publishing the post, but i changed it because I dont know nearly enough history to say most wars are because of religion. But i do know several were.
    My apologies. I did take your comment out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Who's to say that person isn't simply using the word God in its exclamatory form?

    I've often said the words "Oh God" or "God that's stupid" in response to given situations without actually thinking about God in a religious context.
    Where do you think the saying came from? Sayings and curse words all have origins. You may say something out of habit, but just because you may be ignorant of the meaning or origin doesnt mean there isnt a religious context associated to it.

    BTW, I am using 'ignorant' not as a negative term, but in the sense that you may not know what something is. No offense intended (trying to preserve the great rapport of this thread).
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe or not believe, but i resent the hypocrites that preach this and preach that and tell you how to live your life while committing their own sins (of which they preached against).
    I agree, but the answer you'll hear from the religious, is that he works in mysterious ways or you have to pray for him to hear you or some other convenient excuse.
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  10. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #30  
    this is the one thing that bothers me the most is people calling ministers hypocrites. They are nothing more than fallen siners just like the rest of us. It's like calling doctors hypocrites because they get sick when all they have done is study how to fix it. We are all sinners and fall short ministers just help us learn the ways of God they are not God themselves
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe or not believe, but i resent the hypocrites that preach this and preach that and tell you how to live your life while committing their own sins (of which they preached against).
    Hypocrites...this world is full of them! I am one, as much as everyone else. Unless you are living by your own code of honor, you cannot perfectly live a life of a higher standard without faltering at least once. I dont exalt the preacher/teacher of a religion, but what that person stands for. If you look to a man for perfection, then you have already lost sight of the purpose.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    My apologies. I did take your comment out of context.



    Where do you think the saying came from? Sayings and curse words all have origins. You may say something out of habit, but just because you may be ignorant of the meaning or origin doesnt mean there isnt a religious context associated to it.

    BTW, I am using 'ignorant' not as a negative term, but in the sense that you may not know what something is. No offense intended (trying to preserve the great rapport of this thread).

    No offense taken. Well I'm referring to the context in which it's used at that moment. I know the word God is normally used in a religious context but the beauty of context is that the same word can have 2 different meanings at different times. 'Oh *****!' can just as well be substitued for 'Oh God'! I've said both and didn't think anything of it. I've listened to and read several transcrips of cockpit voice recorder last words and it's very interesting what you hear and read. To be honest out of maybe 50 I've listened to, the word God only came up a few times.
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  13. h-cubed's Avatar
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    #33  
    "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world..."

    I can tell you about the greater that is in me but as a poster said it is something that the human mind can not justify, reason with, comprehend or fathom... I can try but the thing is faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God. I can tell you about the greater that is in me but you have to be willing to be open to what the bible tells us. The bible in itself is the only infallible written word of God, written by men through divine instruction and inspiration.

    You can never plant a seed in fallow ground... regardless of how hard you try
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    this is the one thing that bothers me the most is people calling ministers hypocrites. They are nothing more than fallen siners just like the rest of us. It's like calling doctors hypocrites because they get sick when all they have done is study how to fix it. We are all sinners and fall short ministers just help us learn the ways of God they are not God themselves
    I didn't particularly mean "ministers" or other people of the church, per se. I meant anybody that thinks they know better than you, just because they believe what they believe.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    this is the one thing that bothers me the most is people calling ministers hypocrites. They are nothing more than fallen siners just like the rest of us. It's like calling doctors hypocrites because they get sick when all they have done is study how to fix it. We are all sinners and fall short ministers just help us learn the ways of God they are not God themselves
    While the majority of ministers and priests are well meaning, giving people, stories like this are part of the reason that people call them hypoctrites. The word of God is used in ways light-years from their intended purposes:

    Baptist Pastors to Pray for Barack Obama's Death on Presidents Day.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  16. #36  
    I know alot of atheists and pagans, in my experiences they generally have a greater passion toward people and animals, even the earth. So the moral argument, is nothing more then spatter.

    @jewel, there is much more evidence to support global warming then there is god.

    @shadavis, I have a hard time beliving theres a way to prove that. When I thought I was dying, I didnt cry out to a god, it never crossed my mind. What did come to me was fear of coming back, I dont want to come back. And I dont necesarrily belive in reincarnation to begin with.


    As we found in the palin thread, we can argue god non-stop, but neither side will accept the others. Thats why I faded in the end. To me, you can't debate history. But you can debate the bible. And history proves the teachings have changed, the bible has changed, books were removed and destroyed. It is absolutey historical. I understand the hardline of arguing against the bible, and it is almost pointess. but.... take into consideration

    When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life, we understand that as a myth

    when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.

    When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth

    When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth

    When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth.

    When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

    When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

    When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal , we understand that as a myth.

    When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth

    So how come when Jesus is described as
    the Son of God,
    born of a mortal woman,
    according to prophecy,
    turning water into wine,
    raising girls from the dead, and healing blind men with his spittle,
    and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven, the indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades, I mean Hell for the bad folks...
    well how come that's not a myth?

    Also, the first sources of jesus were the gospels, I think 80-120 yrs after christ died and rose or whatever. Plus there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of christ at all.

    I think his story just caught on. I also think if you were born in pakistan,you may be blowing yourself up in the name of allah.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Whether there is a God or not, I personally find it very difficult to love God when he allows such horrible and devastating things (natural and/or man made) happen to innocent people every single day.
    People have every right to believe or not believe, but i resent the hypocrites that preach this and preach that and tell you how to live your life while committing their own sins (of which they preached against).
    Although I dont belive in god, free will is in the bible. It is up to us to be good to one another, not up to god. It is a shame though that with or without god, we dont seem completely capable of doing this.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Although I dont belive in god, free will is in the bible. It is up to us to be good to one another, not up to god. It is a shame though that with or without god, we dont seem completely capable of doing this.
    EXACTLY.
    To me, it is more GENUINE when a person is good out of the goodness of their heart as opposed to being "good" because they're afraid of burning in hell.
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I would postulate that we are talking about the Christian God, but is this thread for ANY god? Anything can be (and pretty much has been) a god. But the one that usually gets the most attention, be it negative or positive, seems to be the God of the Bible. Maybe that says something in and of itself...
    My inclination is that most of the discussion in the other thread was related to the Juneau-Christian God, but I think an understanding of the "invention" of gods in Greek and Roman times might shed some light on the discussion. I suspect some might want to discuss religions that have some Biblical roots (such as Muslims) but I have to confess to being ignorant about those religions. I would really prefer to constrain the discussion to a belief in a single God, but I'm not arrogant enough to do that at the present moment.

    We might not all agree on who a single God might be. I'd prefer we establish a ground rule that we that we refrain from making judgments like "my God is better than your God" so we can keep the discussion civil. There might be times when people feel it important to state reasons for their particular faith. This should be fine as long as those remain reasoned, civil, and respectful of others.

    So in summary, let's start with "the God of the Bible" until someone identifies a need to share an example from another faith or if we need to compare different sets of belief in "god". It's the general idea of how we as humans find it logical to believe in a supreme being that I think we want to explore, so I want to remain open if people come up with reasons or examples outside of the God of the Bible.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Also, the first sources of jesus were the gospels, I think 80-120 yrs after christ died and rose or whatever. Plus there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of christ at all.
    You are almost correct - the first writings about Jesus were not the Gospels, but from Paul (Epistle to the Galatians, circa 54 C.E.). The Gospel of Mark was possibly written 70 C.E. But with reference to contemporary evidence, check out the writings of Josephus, Pliny, and Tacitus.
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