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  1.    #321  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Humanity has already tackled that question:


    :-)
    That was classic!
    (My favorite part was when Superman rolled his eyes () at Batman!)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    .... Thanks for asking, but it would be pretty un-christian for me the master of "off topic" in off-topic to not allow necessary diversions based on legitimate questions! Good question BTW
    Thanks.
  3. solarus's Avatar
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    #323  
    "Beer is proof that God exists and wants us to be happy"

    ...sometimes attributed to Benjamin Franklin.
  4. #324  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    "Beer is proof that God exists and wants us to be happy"

    ...sometimes attributed to Benjamin Franklin.
    HA.
    Now i'm wondering how much of the bible was written "under the influence".
    There's no question that there're some very over-the-top passages in there.
    (I don't mean to offend anybody by that, it's just a thought)
  5.    #325  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    "Beer is proof that God exists and wants us to be happy"
    As the saying among hobby beer producers goes:
    Relax, Don't worry. Have a homebrew!
    That saying basically means that while you need to be methodical when brewing your own beer, anxiety is most often the cause for making some mistake that affects the final quality of the beer (more than anything else). The best way is to study in advance, but while producing the wert, watching it ferment, and bottling it, other than cleanliness, the next best thing is to pay attention to what's happening and learn, rather than following some recipe you were given.

    The same holds true for religion. If a God exists, have confidence that He/She will give you what you need to find Him/Her. This is how I can "not freak out" when ryleyinstl's position is so different from Kenanator's or KAM1138's. So I guess I'll modify the saying to:
    Relax, don't worry. Find God!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6.    #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    HA.
    Now i'm wondering how much of the bible was written "under the influence".
    There's no question that there're some very over-the-top passages in there.
    (I don't mean to offend anybody by that, it's just a thought)
    All of the Bible was written "under the influence" of spirits (the Holy Spirit!)

    EDIT: You are right in calling this an "influence". Romans Chapter 8 makes it very clear that the Holy Spirit (dwelling in us) allows us to overcome sin that we could otherwise not do on our own. It is very much an "influence" (which can be scary when not properly ordered). You need to read the whole Bible (God's word) and your thoughts need to be consistent with God's entire message. Some misled individuals might also be given thoughts from Satan (like to kill an abortion doctor) which are contrary to God's teaching and cause evil. This is called "discernment of the Holy Spirit" and some people are given this as a gift (if they need it). Sometimes spiritual gifts are for an individual but often they are for a community. I don't really feel I have that sort of discernment, but that does not mean the Lord does not use me in ways that I don't always realize. I just wanted to mention that the "influence" of the Holy Spirit can be abused, just like alcohol can. When used properly, both are very nice!

    EDIT2: Abuses of the Holy Spirit are seldom as extreme as being told to do something very evil. I once attended Bible studies shortly after my college years. I was with a group of people who were standing in a line at a church to have a blessing, and people were being "slain in the Holy Spirit". When the hands were laid on me, the preacher literally forced me backward with his hand. I was to believe this was the action of the Holy Spirit. It could have been, but I felt his hand and arm would not have been moving if this was "legitimate". I could have misread a real action of the Holy Spirit but I didn't feel God was ready to act on me in such a powerful way. I hope I did not offend God, but I did not put Him to a test, I just had the sense that He was being abused to achieve what the preacher thought was a good and justifiable end. This is why I say people need to pay attention both to any potential word of God, but also to the intellect and judgment that He gives you.)
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/18/2010 at 12:20 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7. #327  
    I like how St. Anselm, a medieval philosopher proposed his ontological argument and follows as such:

    (1) God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
    (2) If God is that than which no greater can be conceived then there is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
    Therefore:
    (3) There is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
    (4) If God does not exist then there is something greater than God that can be imagined.
    Therefore:
    (5) God exists.

    I am in no way supporting his argument solely on that I am a theist but rather because his logic is very well formulated and I myself cannot conceive of an idea/something greater than the universal conception of an all-powerful being.

    A rebuttal to the proposed argument is from Immanuel Kant, a German theist philosopher, was that simply existence is not a "REAL" predicate and is presupposed when mentioning things such as "James is a punk *** *****".

    To my knowledge Anselm's argument has yet to been disproved. Correct me if I am wrong.

    My two cents.
  8.    #328  
    On the line of philosophical arguments for God's existence, I had linked to an audio talk in the first post that described 5 such arguments:
    1. Argument from Design (0:40)
    2. Argument from First Cause (8:04)
    3. Argument from Conscience (18:20)
    4. Argument from Desire (28:47)
    5. Pascal's Wager (34:05)

    My oldest son reacted to the Pascal's Wager argument with disgust. My son's rebuttal was that pascal's wager is about either choosing a God and winning if you are right, or not choosing a God and either loosing, or neither winning nor [losing] if God does not exist. The point he made to me was "How do you know which God to choose?" which is the exact same question that darreno1 had asked me at the close of last night's discussion.

    Kreeft also lists short descriptions (similar to Brantal's post) of
    Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God

    1. The Argument from Change
    2. The Argument from Efficient Causality
    3. The Argument from Time and Contingency
    4. The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
    5. The Design Argument
    6. The Kalam Argument
    7. The Argument from Contingency
    8. The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
    9. The Argument from Miracles
    10. The Argument from Consciousness
    11. The Argument from Truth
    12. The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
    13. The Ontological Argument
    14. The Moral Argument
    15. The Argument from Conscience
    16. The Argument from Desire
    17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
    18. The Argument from Religious Experience
    19. The Common Consent Argument
    20. Pascal's Wager

    Bujin dismissed the entire set of 20 arguments as being "sophomoric" (my word), but [s]he did so without any real discussion. I find this "part" of philosophy to be the hardest part and I think most of us are not trained to work with these sorts of proofs. I would like to see a discussion around these and any other such arguments/proofs. (After all, this was the initial reason for starting the thread.) -- thanks
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/18/2010 at 01:01 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #329  
    Umm-
    Not to be SpellCheck Sammy here, but...
    On more than one post, by more than one poster, losing was spelled: "loosing".

    It's really getting me upset.

    Ok, resume discussion.....

    /spellchecksammy
  10.    #330  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Umm-
    Not to be SpellCheck Sammy here, but...
    On more than one post, by more than one poster, losing was spelled: "loosing".

    It's really getting me upset.

    Ok, resume discussion.....
    HaHa! (I hope it was not me.) I'm a terrible typist but I usually go back and edit any missplellings (sp?) I missed the first time. It's a bit annoying to me when I quote a post as to whether I correct the misspellings or leave them as-is. I'm willing to live with imperfection if the content is otherwise compelling or teaches me something I did not know.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's a mistake I made (or normally make). Thanks for pointing it out!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #331  
    I give you a random video from the Internets, complete with a snazzy 80's soundtrack.



    Also interesting...

    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/18/2010 at 01:38 PM.
  12. #332  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    HaHa! (I hope it was not me.) I'm a terrible typist but I usually go back and edit any missplellings (sp?) I missed the first time. It's a bit annoying to me when I quote a post as to whether I correct the misspellings or leave them as-is. I'm willing to live with imperfection if the content is otherwise compelling or teaches me something I did not know.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's a mistake I made (or normally make). Thanks for pointing it out!
    Anytime!
    I have no problem pointing out other people's mistakes.
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    What is indeed awe inspiring is that in all that vastness of space, we are the only form of life known (so far). That makes the thought of a "global-centric-human focused" God more possible and equally as interesting.
    That says more about the limitations of our knowledge than anything else. We have no idea of any other forms of life, and can "see" only an infinitesimal part of the universe. I'm not sure that it makes the thought of God any more plausible.

    Would finding other life impact some folks' perceptions that God exists? Of course not - they would say "God works in mysterious ways".
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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    #334  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That says more about the limitations of our knowledge than anything else. We have no idea of any other forms of life, and can "see" only an infinitesimal part of the universe. I'm not sure that it makes the thought of God any more plausible.

    Would finding other life impact some folks' perceptions that God exists? Of course not - they would say "God works in mysterious ways".
    I should add that I don't necessarily agree with the characterization of a "global-centric-human focused" God. I do think that not only is life here on earth is quite unique, but that we as humans are indeed very, very special.

    My response to finding life on other planets would be "With God, anything is possible" which is also why I don't dismiss the idea.
  15. #335  
    I think too many people are confusing faith with religion. You don't necessarily have to subscribe to any one religion to have faith (although it can help) I have known many people who were very involved in "religion" who were not good people. Personally, I do not go to church because of some of these past experiences. I do however, hold on to my faith in God and strive to be the best person I can be. Example is the worlds greatest advertisement!
  16.    #336  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I give you a random video from the Internets,
    I watched both videos. The first one makes it clear that we have suffering and abuse present in our world. The second one portrays religions of being a part of this abuse. They are sad. The first one instills a need of wanting to help those who are suffering while the second one is designed to instill rage a religious organizations. The first identifies a real problem (that many churches and congregations are helping to alleviate). The second, while also highlighting a problem that exists not only in some churches but also very often in the business world, probably does more harm to those people in the first video than to the abusive churches in the second. I'm thankful that Godless groups want to help but I think this can be achieved in better ways without collateral damage to allies of theirs in the religious community who share their goals to alleviate world suffering.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17.    #337  
    I would also like to know if anyone has looked at the philosophical "proofs" of God's existence that I posted. (I'd like us to try and shoot some holes in these.) - thanks
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  18.    #338  
    Here's another suggestion to think about that might help motivate discussion:
    Ignoring for a moment, the existence of a God or not, what do you think about the existence (or non-existence) of Hell (and why)?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Here's another suggestion to think about that might help motivate discussion:
    Ignoring for a moment, the existence of a God or not, what do you think about the existence (or non-existence) of Hell (and why)?
    Not! The "devil/hell" was not present in religious texts until the nomadic monotheists ran into polytheists and borrowed the idea.
  20. #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Not! The "devil/hell" was not present in religious texts until the nomadic monotheists ran into polytheists and borrowed the idea.
    Any credible sources on that?
    Just wondering as I never heard of that before.

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