Page 16 of 89 FirstFirst ... 611121314151617181920212666 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 320 of 1780
  1. #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, I can at least give you credit for not pretending that everything you believe is based on "proof."
    Proof is a floating target. Our opposite view points are a good example of that.
  2. #302  
    Ok. I know alot of my posts are relatively short (That's what she s--d) compared to all of yours, but i work outside, so everything i do is from the Pre.
    Anyway:
    Not to change the subject of what you guys are discussing right now but-

    How and/or when do you think PARENTS should instill their religious beliefs on their children?
    Millions of people only think the way they do because that was how they were raised to believe, and they don't even think to question it.

    @sudoer:
    If this is too "off-base" from your "off-topic", feel free to tell me.
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Proof is a floating target. Our opposite view points are a good example of that.
    Actually I do not believe we have the means to prove or disprove the existence of God. We lack the same evidence, and simply choose different conclusions--we choose our beliefs without any definitive proof.

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    How and/or when do you think PARENTS should instill their religious beliefs on their children?
    Millions of people only think the way they do because that was how they were raised to believe, and they don't even think to question it.

    @sudoer:
    If this is too "off-base" from your "off-topic", feel free to tell me.
    Given that rebellion against one's parents is "cool" and common, I would suggest the opposite might be true. I think kids might go out of their way to "question" their religious upbringing just because it is what their parents taught them.

    I would further suggest the notion that it is comparatively simple to drop a religious practice, simply because of laziness. Following an additional set of rules and restrictions often requires some action. Eliminating that is quite simple.

    I'll give my own example. There was a period of time that I didn't attend Church. Why? Simple laziness. I sometimes still miss church services for that same reason.

    Here's another. Yesterday was Ash Wednesday--the beginning of Lent. Is it easier to adhere to various self-sacrifice (which is really minor) that the church requires or to ignore it? Obviously it is easier to NOT adhere to a restriction.

    So, I suggest that in our modern society, all the various factors are tilted away from Religious adherence. Time constraints, popular culture, and of course let's not forget ridicule from Anti-Religious people (different from non-Religious I might add). All those things make it more difficult to follow Religion that one might have been brought up with. In other words--it takes effort to follow a Religion (or most of them) and less effort to not, so it is very easy to simply stop.

    KAM
  5. #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    How and/or when do you think PARENTS should instill their religious beliefs on their children?
    Millions of people only think the way they do because that was how they were raised to believe, and they don't even think to question it.
    If you worship a god and fully believe in it's existence wouldn't you would be doing a grave disservice to your children if you let them think otherwise?
  6. #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If you worship a god and fully believe in it's existence wouldn't you would be doing a grave disservice to your children if you let them think otherwise?
    But that sort of tosses the "free will" out the window, no?
  7. #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Given that rebellion against one's parents is "cool" and common, I would suggest the opposite might be true. I think kids might go out of their way to "question" their religious upbringing just because it is what their parents taught them.

    I would further suggest the notion that it is comparatively simple to drop a religious practice, simply because of laziness. Following an additional set of rules and restrictions often requires some action. Eliminating that is quite simple.

    I'll give my own example. There was a period of time that I didn't attend Church. Why? Simple laziness. I sometimes still miss church services for that same reason.

    Here's another. Yesterday was Ash Wednesday--the beginning of Lent. Is it easier to adhere to various self-sacrifice (which is really minor) that the church requires or to ignore it? Obviously it is easier to NOT adhere to a restriction.

    So, I suggest that in our modern society, all the various factors are tilted away from Religious adherence. Time constraints, popular culture, and of course let's not forget ridicule from Anti-Religious people (different from non-Religious I might add). All those things make it more difficult to follow Religion that one might have been brought up with. In other words--it takes effort to follow a Religion (or most of them) and less effort to not, so it is very easy to simply stop.

    KAM
    I agree that it could go either way. Many people do try to do the opposite of what they see their parents do. But i think there are many more blind followers just because that was how their parents raised them.
    It could also be just to follow geographical culture, if nothing else.
    These people don't even realize (nor want to realize) that there is a whole world out there full of opposing beliefs.
  8. #308  
    What if the universe itself is a living organism? Stars, galaxies, etc. We just don't know it because we are beyond microscopic. Would that be 'god'? Does that make us a part of god, or in some way gods ourselves to smaller organisms? Just a dumb thought I had when seeing this thread.

    I just shake my head at the "we are causing climate change" hysteria these days. Yup. Us. On a planet that is a few billion (with a 'b') years old. In a galaxy that is 100,000 light years across. Which is one galaxy among billions....
    Last edited by knobbysideup; 02/18/2010 at 11:45 AM.
  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If you worship a god and fully believe in it's existence wouldn't you would be doing a grave disservice to your children if you let them think otherwise?
    That is the logical and correct conclusion. Although it was interesting how he phrased the question...he said "instill religious beliefs ON their children". That of course implies an imposition on the child as opposed to a formation of the child which is much more in conformity with free will.

    I would argue that a good parent teaches much more by example and that it's not an imposition on the child any more than teaching them to avoid running in the street when there is traffic zooming by is imposing on them.
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    I agree that it could go either way. Many people do try to do the opposite of what they see their parents do. But i think there are many more blind followers just because that was how their parents raised them.
    It could also be just to follow geographical culture, if nothing else.
    These people don't even realize (nor want to realize) that there is a whole world out there full of opposing beliefs.
    I can't speak to the actual numbers of "rebels" vs "followers" but in my view, it is vital to teach children to be able to think for themselves and evaluate things for themselves. If you think that raising an obedient child will make them agree with you, I suggest that will last only as long as they are with you--then someone else will tell them what to think. Perhaps your claim is correct--that there are many more blind followers, which is why so many kids go to college and learn to follow whatever drivel they are told to think.

    I've often heard people say that "college teaches you how to think." Rather, I think it is "college teaches you to think what we tell you to think."

    Today I think it is much different than even 20 years ago--the internet alone opens up people's ability to hear things they might not have before. Even a remote town is open to the world of ideas in ways it wasn't previously.

    KAM
  11.    #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    How and/or when do you think PARENTS should instill their religious beliefs on their children?
    Millions of people only think the way they do because that was how they were raised to believe, and they don't even think to question it.
    I have to admit that teaching children the faith is easier in concept than practice. The only real way to teach children anything is by our example. I've taught my children early on in their lives that I can be narrow-minded. They've actually opened my mind up in a lot of areas when I see them making their own choices that are different than what I would make. When they become teenagers, it's pretty much too late to teach them anything else other than being just one of the many people/couples they observe in life as they develop their own minds. I trust my wife (who is much more liberal in ideology than I ever could be, but I like some of the principles that she has) to give my kids a balance and to teach them to think for themselves. I get into some interesting debates occasionally with my sons and I doubt I'm able to change their opinions, but what they say helps me a lot in dealing with others myself.

    My Church teaches to raise them up in the Catholic faith. I was challenged in learning my own faith after marriage and while raising children. I'd rather that they question things as early in life as possible so that they have more time to find the mid-life corrections that many of us need to make in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    @sudoer:
    If this is too "off-base" from your "off-topic", feel free to tell me.
    Thanks for asking, but it would be pretty un-christian for me the master of "off topic" in off-topic to not allow necessary diversions based on legitimate questions! Good question BTW
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    What if the universe itself is a living organism? Stars, galaxies, etc. We just don't know it because we are beyond microscopic. Just a dumb thought I had when seeing this thread.

    I just shake my head at the "we are causing climate change" hysteria these days. Yup. Us. On a planet that is a few billion (with a 'b') years old. In a galaxy that is 100,000 light years across. Which is one galaxy among billions....
    Without getting into a discussion about the merit or lack of merit in various climate change claims, could this be a result of a mindset that denies God's existence?

    If you don't believe in God, it seems to me that relatively speaking, one would tend to default to a belief that places humanity at a higher level in relation to the universe. If that sort of thinking is transferred to a physical sense, then some might see our place on Earth as more than one would otherwise.

    Interesting.

    KAM
  13. #313  
    Who here can really understand Einstein's theory of relativity. Only a few people in this world have ever been able to grasp this. We all believe it exists though. We take this on faith.
  14. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Ok. I know alot of my posts are relatively short (That's what she s--d) compared to all of yours, but i work outside, so everything i do is from the Pre.
    Anyway:
    Not to change the subject of what you guys are discussing right now but-

    How and/or when do you think PARENTS should instill their religious beliefs on their children?
    Millions of people only think the way they do because that was how they were raised to believe, and they don't even think to question it.

    @sudoer:
    If this is too "off-base" from your "off-topic", feel free to tell me.
    I would recommend renting a documentary called "Jesus Camp". It is more to the extreme evangelical christian side, but it is kind of eye opening. It is as if these parents where raising their kids just to fight in a holy war against Islam and liberalism.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  15. punzada's Avatar
    Posts
    137 Posts
    Global Posts
    161 Global Posts
    #315  
    The existance of some type of higher power isn't really something I feel needs any discussion more so then who would win in a fight with Batman and Superman. It's not something we will ever be able to prove and disprove based on what is presented to us.

    My problem with the major religions, is that scientific discoveries have already shown the vastness of our universe. We have billions of lightyears of unexplored and barely navigated space - and we think that any possible 'creator' being would care enough about our species in particular to show themsleves as a reincarnated version of us (or speak to a particular one of us to make them their voice to the world). I've seen the highly religious call athesists arrogant for flat out denying the existance of a God, but how is thinking that a 'greater being' of that magnitude would spend its time to cause miraculous births and create what humans percieve as miracles not of equal arrogance? The fact that people believe that if there was a "God" being that we would have absolutely any clue to what their motivations, desires or reasoning is to me is baffling.

    Doesn't the universe that surrounds us all inspire so much more awe then a global-centric-human focused unprovable deity? It certainly does for me.
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by cdritch24 View Post
    Who here can really understand Einstein's theory of relativity. Only a few people in this world have ever been able to grasp this. We all believe it exists though. We take this on faith.
    I attempted to make this point (with different examples) in another thread to no avail. In fact--people believe all sorts of things on faith (not religious). The point is--people who fool themselves into believing they operate in this world only on the basis of "logical proof" are...well, fooling themselves.

    KAM
  17. #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    The existance of some type of higher power isn't really something I feel needs any discussion more so then who would win in a fight with Batman and Superman.
    Humanity has already tackled that question:


    :-)
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    The existance of some type of higher power isn't really something I feel needs any discussion more so then who would win in a fight with Batman and Superman. It's not something we will ever be able to prove and disprove based on what is presented to us.

    My problem with the major religions, is that scientific discoveries have already shown the vastness of our universe. We have billions of lightyears of unexplored and barely navigated space - and we think that any possible 'creator' being would care enough about our species in particular to show themsleves as a reincarnated version of us (or speak to a particular one of us to make them their voice to the world). I've seen the highly religious call athesists arrogant for flat out denying the existance of a God, but how is thinking that a 'greater being' of that magnitude would spend its time to cause miraculous births and create what humans percieve as miracles not of equal arrogance? The fact that people believe that if there was a "God" being that we would have absolutely any clue to what their motivations, desires or reasoning is to me is baffling.

    Doesn't the universe that surrounds us all inspire so much more awe then a global-centric-human focused unprovable deity? It certainly does for me.
    Isn't your argument assuming that God is only concerned with us? It is natural for a human to hold a human-centric view--at least as a starting point. What we believe about God might impose a human-centric view upon God, but again--isn't that natural to assume, given that the topic at hand is the interaction between God and humanity? The universe DOES inspire awe in me--so much that I can barely comprehend it, let alone put it into words. However, that doesn't diminish my belief in God.

    To be a bit more flippant...perhaps we're just a beloved Hobby for God. I have many hobbies--just because I spend time on one, doesn't mean that is all I ever do.

    KAM
  19. rjwerth's Avatar
    Posts
    16 Posts
    Global Posts
    23 Global Posts
    #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    The existance of some type of higher power isn't really something I feel needs any discussion more so then who would win in a fight with Batman and Superman. It's not something we will ever be able to prove and disprove based on what is presented to us.

    My problem with the major religions, is that scientific discoveries have already shown the vastness of our universe. We have billions of lightyears of unexplored and barely navigated space - and we think that any possible 'creator' being would care enough about our species in particular to show themsleves as a reincarnated version of us (or speak to a particular one of us to make them their voice to the world). I've seen the highly religious call athesists arrogant for flat out denying the existance of a God, but how is thinking that a 'greater being' of that magnitude would spend its time to cause miraculous births and create what humans percieve as miracles not of equal arrogance? The fact that people believe that if there was a "God" being that we would have absolutely any clue to what their motivations, desires or reasoning is to me is baffling.

    Doesn't the universe that surrounds us all inspire so much more awe then a global-centric-human focused unprovable deity? It certainly does for me.
    What is indeed awe inspiring is that in all that vastness of space, we are the only form of life known (so far). That makes the thought of a "global-centric-human focused" God more possible and equally as interesting.
  20.    #320  
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    The existance of some type of higher power isn't really something I feel needs any discussion more so then who would win in a fight with Batman and Superman. It's not something we will ever be able to prove and disprove based on what is presented to us.
    Thanks for sharing your opinion about lack of need to discuss the possible existence of a God. In a way, our discussion here bears out what you say, and in a way it does not.
    • We've made little traction in discussing how one might conduct proofs one way or the other.
    • A lot of people's bucketing the challenge as "illogical" has not been based on any scientific method.
    • The mere fact that people remain interested in the question is enough to indicate that discussion likely is necessary.


    Even you found a need to continue discussion after making your opening statement (as evidenced below):
    Quote Originally Posted by punzada View Post
    My problem with the major religions, is that scientific discoveries have already shown the vastness of our universe. We have billions of lightyears of unexplored and barely navigated space - and we think that any possible 'creator' being would care enough about our species in particular to show themsleves as a reincarnated version of us (or speak to a particular one of us to make them their voice to the world). I've seen the highly religious call athesists arrogant for flat out denying the existance of a God, but how is thinking that a 'greater being' of that magnitude would spend its time to cause miraculous births and create what humans percieve as miracles not of equal arrogance? The fact that people believe that if there was a "God" being that we would have absolutely any clue to what their motivations, desires or reasoning is to me is baffling.

    Doesn't the universe that surrounds us all inspire so much more awe then a global-centric-human focused unprovable deity? It certainly does for me.
    If you are willing to change your mind about discussion, I'm willing to engage in what you said. Otherwise I'll assume you really didn't mean to say the remainder and I'll just ignore it. (Your call on how to proceed.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

Posting Permissions