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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    As opposed to believers, who think that they'll literally be looking down on the atheists in hell.
    Actually, my Religion states that we really cannot say what happens to someone--that it is not our place to make that determination.

    KAM
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Says who? You? The bible? Your Rabi? The Internet?

    It very convenient for you that God hasn't shown himself to me yet because he hasn't had the need. Something tells me that if he had ever "shown himself" to anyone I ever knew they would have told me about a guy as big as a house dropping by for coffee.

    That said...props for sticking to your convictions.
    If you believe in Christianity you would believe that God has shown himself--in Jesus. You choose not to believe that. Please don't mistake what I'm saying here as some attack on you, rather, I'm pointing out that Christianity includes God revealing himself to humanity in a very direct way.

    Now, Jesus presumably hasn't come bodily to your house, but you have the capability to accept this or not. That is your choice one way or the other, it is not being denied to you by God.

    KAM
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, according to your graphical chart definition, you might be the most faithful person here.
    KAM
    I suppose that depends on how you look at it. In either case I don't believe in the existence of a God.

    The problem in disproving the existence of a God to a worshiper is that they believe the God exists for no other reason than faith (read: just because they do). Ever try telling a 5 year old Santa was fake after indoctrinating them for 5 years?

    On the flip side, trying to convince someone that a god exists for no other reason then you believe it does isn't going to be enough. Sure there is the Bible, Qur'an or that thing the Jehovah's try to force on you on the street but that is just a collection of old stories/fables. If there was a creator of the universe named god then i'm going to need to shake it's hand before I can even start to believe it's real.....and we all know that just isn't going to happen.
  4.    #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    What about the pyramids?
    I'd love to hear more about this if we have any people familiar with history of Egypt!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #285  
    In my line of thinking I shouldn't have to believe in something in order for it to show itself to me. If it exists I should be able to see it. No?

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    If you believe in Christianity you would believe that God has shown himself--in Jesus. You choose not to believe that. Please don't mistake what I'm saying here as some attack on you, rather, I'm pointing out that Christianity includes God revealing himself to humanity in a very direct way.
    Now, Jesus presumably hasn't come bodily to your house, but you have the capability to accept this or not. That is your choice one way or the other, it is not being denied to you by God.

    KAM
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    ...
    So how come when Jesus is described as
    the Son of God,
    born of a mortal woman,
    according to prophecy,
    turning water into wine,
    raising girls from the dead, and healing blind men with his spittle,
    and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven, the indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades, I mean Hell for the bad folks...
    well how come that's not a myth?

    Also, the first sources of jesus were the gospels, I think 80-120 yrs after christ died and rose or whatever. Plus there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of christ at all.

    I think his story just caught on. I also think if you were born in pakistan,you may be blowing yourself up in the name of allah.
    The fact that previous similar claims have proven false does not make these claims false. *I do acknowledge, however, that it does raise reasonable doubt. *So, here are some factors for reasonable trust:

    1. The claimants are eye-witnesses
    2. There is a marked absence of rebuttal from their contemporaries
    3. There is corroborating data from a relatively contemporary source, Josephus. *Despite having access to sources who could provide contrarian input, and despite having a vested interest in disproving the claim -- that of preserving his own religion and tradition -- he does not contradict the claim.
    4. The eyewitnesses had contemporaries followers. *As contemporaries, these people had access to those who could provide contrarian views.
    5. Several of the eyewitnesses and scores of their adherents were tried, tortured and executed on behalf of their claim. *They endured this despite knowing -- if indeed their claims were myth -- that there were no ramifications to recanting. That's a tall order.

    Admittedly, this is all circumstantial. *However, all the circumstances point to veracity.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I suppose that depends on how you look at it. In either case I don't believe in the existence of a God.

    The problem in disproving the existence of a God to a worshiper is that they believe the God exists for no other reason than faith (read: just because they do). Ever try telling a 5 year old Santa was fake after indoctrinating them for 5 years?

    On the flip side, trying to convince someone that a god exists for no other reason then you believe it does isn't going to be enough. Sure there is the Bible, Qur'an or that thing the Jehovah's try to force on you on the street but that is just a collection of old stories/fables. If there was a creator of the universe named god then i'm going to need to shake it's hand before I can even start to believe it's real.....and we all know that just isn't going to happen.
    I am well aware that you don't believe in the Existence of God. My only point was that your exercise in faith seems very similar to that of a believer. In actuality, your exercise in faith (judging by your posts) in not believing in God is in fact stronger than my faith believing in God, because I've had doubts and considered the possibility that God doesn't exist. In fact--I can't be SURE that God does exist. You apparently are sure, and thus your faith in your belief is stronger than mine.

    KAM
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    In my line of thinking I shouldn't have to believe in something in order for it to show itself to me. If it exists I should be able to see it. No?
    That's the criteria you create for yourself, not one you must adhere to.

    In fact, according to Christianity, Jesus did in fact reveal himself to many people--none of which started out as believers in Christianity (of course), and many of which might not have been believers in God. I wouldn't take it as a slight that you just happened to be born a few thousand years later.

    I don't want to go down this road again, necessarily, but I suggest that you likely believe a lot of things exist that you cannot see.

    KAM
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    When you say "directing the show" that contradicts my understanding of free will...... My personal view is that the fact that Free will is something we have is why many things happen.
    KAM
    If you worship an all knowing, seeing power how is that you have free will? Don't you have to weigh all the decisions of your day against how they might play out when you put in your application for a stay in heaven?
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If you worship an all knowing, seeing power how is that you have free will? Don't you have to weigh all the decisions of your day against how they might play out when you put in your application for a stay in heaven?
    Essentially, yes, that is how Christians live their lives. It just isn't as explicit and separated as you might imagine.
  11. #291  
    Faith is a tricky word. I don't really have any faith in the belief that god doesn't exist. It's not a matter of faith for me as faith isn't required to live in a world not created by god. I'd say faith is required in situations where you don't have all the answers. Needed in a situation where, if you didn't have faith, you wouldn't believe what your are thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I am well aware that you don't believe in the Existence of God. My only point was that your exercise in faith seems very similar to that of a believer. In actuality, your exercise in faith (judging by your posts) in not believing in God is in fact stronger than my faith believing in God, because I've had doubts and considered the possibility that God doesn't exist. In fact--I can't be SURE that God does exist. You apparently are sure, and thus your faith in your belief is stronger than mine.
    KAM
  12.    #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, my Religion states that we really cannot say what happens to someone--that it is not our place to make that determination.
    Pretty much any Christian religion agrees that God makes the judgments regarding salvation. Christians can differ whether we personally know whether we are saved or not, and whether salvation can be lost. Most non-Catholic Christians believe in a doctrine of "once saved, always saved" and the NT (especially the letters by Paul) do a very good job of supporting this doctrine or something close. Non-Catholic Christians will sometimes differ on whether you know you have been saved or not. Some say that rather than "loosing" your salvation, you never really had it in the first place. My belief is that to become a Christian, you (or someone on your behalf) needs to make a choice for you to enter the Christian community. Catholics say this happens at Baptism and Evangelicals say it happens when a believing person makes a choice to trust in Christ and to follow God's will. They are both very powerful and this entry wipes away all sin in the new believer's life at the time it happens. Salvation in the Bible really happens in three "tenses" at the same time. You have been saved by the actions of your faith in Jesus Christ, you are being saved (for instance, every time you resist the temptation to sin), and you will be saved (at the moment of the final judgment in the end times).

    I worry less about people potentially choosing a "wrong God" (if one exists) than many other Christians. I believe, if there is a God, He know what's in your heart and whether or not you chose to follow Him in the best way that you know how. For some, that means non-Christian faiths. I don't believe there is more than one God, and I don't believe you "can choose the wrong one". My Church teaches that there is a specific path God wants us to follow, that everyone should be made aware of this path, but due to everyday circumstances, there will be people who hear His message with less fidelity than others.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If you worship an all knowing, seeing power how is that you have free will? Don't you have to weigh all the decisions of your day against how they might play out when you put in your application for a stay in heaven?
    I like how you worded this post.
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Faith is a tricky word. I don't really have any faith in the belief that god doesn't exist. It's not a matter of faith for me as faith isn't required to live in a world not created by god. I'd say faith is required in situations where you don't have all the answers. Needed in a situation where, if you didn't have faith, you wouldn't believe what your are thinking.
    I was just pointing out how you seem to fit your posted "Faith" definition chart.

    I see, so if you declare that you have all the answers(for a given situation), then there is no faith required?

    KAM
  15. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    So how can anyone who reads the Bible can be sure they're reading it in the 'correct' context?

    Also another aspect to consider is the scientific knowledge of the society at the time the Bible was written. A lot of what might have seemed to be 'miracles' might have been perfectly natural phenomenon that went beyond the comprehension of those who witnessed them at the time.
    Just copying one of my previous posts from another thread:

    I heard a great homily several years ago about some of the miracles in the Bible and how many of them could be easily proven to be possible without "divine intervention." I found it to actually INCREASE my faith, though some of my protestant friends I shared the homily with had quite the opposite reaction.

    The point of the homily was that even though we can, with all our modern knowledge, be able to understand things that were just hocus-pocus back then doesn't diminish the fact that they were miracles-not unlike childbirth.
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Pretty much any Christian religion agrees that God makes the judgments regarding salvation.

    SNIP

    I worry less about people potentially choosing a "wrong God" (if one exists) than many other Christians. I believe, if there is a God, He know what's in your heart and whether or not you chose to follow Him in the best way that you know how. For some, that means non-Christian faiths. I don't believe there is more than one God, and I don't believe you "can choose the wrong one". My Church teaches that there is a specific path God wants us to follow, that everyone should be made aware of this path, but due to everyday circumstances, there will be people who hear His message with less fidelity than others.
    Well, I mention that, because when discussing the subject, there is typically an onslaught of claims that are simply not true. Many believers don't actually understand the reasoning behind certain church doctrine (I'm sure my understanding is incomplete and imperfect), and non-believers know even less. Of course, this doesn't stop them from boldly declaring these incorrect things.

    Some of them might just be ignorant, for any number of reasons. Most people simply do not ever bother to learn about something, or even worse--"common knowledge" that they do learn is simply wrong.

    Two really common instances of that are in regards to the Immaculate Conception and Papal infallibility. These are two things that I suggest that many Catholics do not even understand, let alone non-Catholics.

    And then there are the people who actually do know something, and intentionally misrepresent it for their own purposes.

    KAM
  17. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well if we were created perfectly we'd know right from wrong, won't have to depend on each other etc. We would be.......'perfect'.

    In fact when you think about it, why create us in the first place? Also why would a perfect being such as God feel to need to be loved, wanted, worshipped? These needs would seem to be non existent in a 'perfect' being.

    Even if these needs were to be present in a perfect being, why wouldn't that being simply 'wish' them away? After all he is all powerful, all knowing?

    Also why would an all knowing being need to test us? Wouldn't he already know the answers ahead of time? In fact wouldn't an all powerful, all-knowing being be able to foretell the result of his own actions? If so, why go through with them anyway?
    During the "time" that only God existed, he was perfect in whatever state he was in as there was nothing to compare to.
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I see, so if you declare that you have all the answers(for a given situation), then there is no faith required?
    KAM
    Basically, yes. For instance, the question of how was the earth formed? Religious explanation; Poof! My belief; whatever it was I was tough in school....rocks, gas, time and a sprinkle of gravity. Are there holes, sure there are, but I'm not a scientist and rest is of no concern to me.

    I don't require a definitive answer for everything the human race has yet to figure out and boil down to news article. I especially don't feel I need to fill those holes with, "God did it."
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Basically, yes. For instance, the question of how was the earth formed? Religious explanation; Poof! My belief; whatever it was I was tough in school....rocks, gas, time and a sprinkle of gravity. Are there holes, sure there are, but I'm not a scientist and rest is of no concern to me.

    I don't require a definitive answer for everything the human race has yet to figure out and boil down to news article. I especially don't feel I need to fill those holes with, "God did it."
    Well, I can at least give you credit for not pretending that everything you believe is based on "proof." You just accept things to the degree that you feel is necessary, and don't worry about the rest. How was the Earth formed? Who cares? That's a valid position as I see it.

    Of course, you should realize (if you don't) that as a Religious person, I do not believe that Earth was formed "poof." Not all believers in God are literalists. In fact--if you read that article, it talks about the big bang and Catholicism. It points out the false belief that many hold that Religion and Science do not mix and are at odds.

    KAM
  20.    #300  
    I'm writing this post as a help to understanding the relationship among many of the Christian denominations in our world. There are currently over 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. Some of these might just be small (perhaps "single congregation") groups with their own specific interpretation of the Bible and their own beliefs. Other denominations are significantly larger.

    This Wikipedia page shows a chart of how and when many of the major splits occurred. Near the top of the page are URLs to some other versions of the page with more specific detail along some major categories of this general subject.

    When I hear the word "denomination", I think of the "denominator" in a fractional number. Denominations are really divisive and were not what God intended. The Catholic church is not considered a denomination. It's considered the original Christian church. Many argue (throughout many periods of history, including today) that the Catholic Church is not the real church and that we "lost the message" somewhere along the way. Many years ago, it bothered me greatly than "many people" believed this. I had to consider the possibility that maybe some of these people might be right. In some ways, they were, but their understandings of history were often more clouded than what history actually bears out. Eventually I've grown to respect the love and reverence that many Christian denominations show toward understanding God's will by reading his word. I find this lacking in many Catholic congregations. Much of this is due to poor catechesis in Catholic churches beginning in the 1960's. The 60's were a confusing time for society as a whole, and the Catholic Church is sometimes slow to move. Generally, slowly moving a steady ship is better over the long run, but it's not always helpful for us in the short run as we need to respond to changing needs in our world. Christian churches need to reunify, but Protestants won't become Catholics until Catholics become better Protestants themselves. This might take centuries (or perhaps even a millennium) to occur. Many think it may happen faster and we really have no idea of how the future will play out.

    You'll also find that beliefs in the "end times" (called "Eschatology") differ widely among Christians. The important thing to remember is that Jesus says in the Bible that noone knows the day or the hour when this will occur, so you can easily reject any church that tells you they know. People have repeatedly failed at trying to predict this so I take the Bible at it's word regarding this matter.

    So in conclusion of this post, my belief is you first conclude whether there is a God or not, and what happens if you guess wrong (or guess right, but guess the "wrong God"). My belief is that you can't guess the wrong God if God exists and he intended you to know this, and that you neither win nor loose if there is not a God, but that you can win eternal life it God does exist and you choose to follow him.

    EDIT: I'm sorry if I repeated some of the "you can't choose a wrong God" theme in both this post and my preceding one. (That seems to be on darreno1's mind, and that's probably why I inadvertently repeated my discussion on that theme.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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