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  1. #261  
    I don't have a problem with explaining 'miracles' in a naturalistic way. It doesn't make them any less miraculous having happened at the time and place that they did and working toward an ultimate goal.
    Well ignorance can lead to misinterpretation which can lead to myth. It could very well be that nothing special or mystical occured to begin with but passed along as though it did.

    Again, I don't think we can take each event individually. That's not what makes the text special. What makes it special is the seamlessness of the narrative as a whole.
    But who's to say we were not meant to take it individually?
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  2.    #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    So how can anyone who reads the Bible can be sure they're reading it in the 'correct' context?
    The Catholic Church has settled on the books which comprise the Bible before 400AD and has established and confirmed this canon at least twice after that. This same Church teaches that Jesus established the Church to defend and explain what this Bible and the Apostolic deposit of faith (what the Apostles and their immediate disciples taught based on the oral teachings of Jesus). This Church explains their teachings in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church (often abreviated as "CCC")" which can be found online. That book references other Church documents and canon law where the teachings are formally and unambiguously defined. In practice, I'd suggest looking for a "Compendium to the CCC" as this will be easier to read and more understandable. You can also call 619-387-7200 (Mon-Fri, 9 A.M. to 4 P.M. Pacific) to ask any question to a team of people trained to answer these sorts of things. They can also suggest additional books or online resources that will more deeply answer the questions you have after that.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #263  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    How can we be sure we are reading any text in the correct context? We study it. We study it in its totality. We study it in relation to the history and culture at the time of its writing. We study it in relation to other similar texts. We interpret passages that are more difficult to understand in light of passages that are more direct.
    In the end it seems we end up with different interpretations anyway. I have yet to see 2 biblical scholars that agree completely on anything.
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    #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well ignorance can lead to misinterpretation which can lead to myth. It could very well be that nothing special or mystical occured to begin with but passed along as though it did.
    Undoubtedly. But we can't completely write off the ancient past based on that possibility. We need to study the events and the narrative explaining them.

    But who's to say we were not meant to take it individually?
    What other text would you try to understand by taking out excerpts individually and interpreting them without larger context?
  5.    #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    They're both hard sells but I sincerely appreciate the offer. I'd rather hear from some of the others on here what their thoughts are.
    HeHe, You haven't seen the "really hard sell" yet. I don't plan to unleash it just yet, and it might happen without you even hearing another word from me. Good Luck - It was really nice conversing with you.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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    #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    In the end it seems we end up with different interpretations anyway. I have yet to see 2 biblical scholars that agree completely on anything.
    But, again, isn't that holding the Bible up to a standard you wouldn't hold any other text to? How many Constitutional scholars do you know who would agree completely on everything about our Constitution and the implications it holds?
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The Catholic Church has settled on the books which comprise the Bible before 400AD and has established and confirmed this canon at least twice after that. This same Church teaches that Jesus established the Church to defend and explain what this Bible and the Apostolic deposit of faith (what the Apostles and their immediate disciples taught based on the oral teachings of Jesus). This Church explains their teachings in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church (often abreviated as "CCC")" which can be found online. That book references other Church documents and canon law where the teachings are formally and unambiguously defined. In practice, I'd suggest looking for a "Compendium to the CCC" as this will be easier to read and more understandable. You can also call 619-387-7200 (Mon-Fri, 9 A.M. to 4 P.M. Pacific) to ask any question to a team of people trained to answer these sorts of things. They can also suggest additional books or online resources that will more deeply answer the questions you have after that.
    Aren't there many different Church canons and interpretations? Why consider just the Catholic Church's view?
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  8.    #268  
    darreno1, I need to go to bed now. Based on his answers to previous posts, I think you're in capable hands with your conversation with Groovy.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9.    #269  
    darreno1, If need be, I can more fully answer your last question tomorrow.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Aren't there many different Church canons and interpretations? Why consider just the Catholic Church's view?
    THAT is the million dollar question.

    However believe it or not there is only one Church that even claims an historic continuity that dates back to Christ himself. No one else even makes that claim....so investigate that claim and decide for youself if you think it has merit:

    Catholic Answers: Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
  11. #271  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    But, again, isn't that holding the Bible up to a standard you wouldn't hold any other text to? How many Constitutional scholars do you know who would agree completely on everything about our Constitution and the implications it holds?
    Well they both suffer from the same problem - ambiguity. And I totally agree the constitution as was written at the time isn't easy to follow or interpret.

    However in contrast there are text that are much more straightforward than those 2 examples. Examples of which can be found in the academic sciences.

    So no I hold the Bible up the same standard as any other text. I just wish I knew which side or opinion to believe.
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  12. #272  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Undoubtedly. But we can't completely write off the ancient past based on that possibility. We need to study the events and the narrative explaining them.
    Well no I don't write it off completely but take it with a grain of salt so to speak. I do believe some of the characters in the Bible existed. The impact of and the lives those characters lived, however, is still a mystery imo.

    What other text would you try to understand by taking out excerpts individually and interpreting them without larger context?
    Well that would depend on the subject/topic being studied. However with the Bible it seems the context itself is up for interpretation. I mean, we have supposedly devout religious groups interpreting text to support their own twisted ideas. I'm sure these people would swear their interpretation of the context is correct.
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    #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well they both suffer from the same problem - ambiguity. And I totally agree the constitution as was written at the time isn't easy to follow or interpret.

    However in contrast there are text that are much more straightforward than those 2 examples. Examples of which can be found in the academic sciences.
    That's a good point. Scientific works and historical or theological works are in completely different categories of texts. So, necessarily, they would be read differently. Now, it also should be noted that in works of a purely scientific nature there is still some ambiguity because, as you know, there is the data and then there is the interpretation of the data. One might find the data to be straightforward but disagree wholeheartedly on the interpretation.

    So no I hold the Bible up the same standard as any other text. I just wish I knew which side or opinion to believe.
    Well, I can't in good conscience tell you to just believe my interpretation. Unfortunately, as with everything, there are no shortcuts to learning it for ourselves.
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    #274  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Well no I don't write it off completely but take it with a grain of salt so to speak. I do believe some of the characters in the Bible existed. The impact of and the lives those characters lived, however, is still a mystery imo.
    I'm glad you haven't written it off. There is undoubtedly a lot of mystery in the Bible and there always will be. But, in my opinion, the payoff of studying and trying to make sense of it makes it well worth the effort.

    Well that would depend on the subject/topic being studied. However with the Bible it seems the context itself is up for interpretation. I mean, we have supposedly devout religious groups interpreting text to support their own twisted ideas. I'm sure these people would swear their interpretation of the context is correct.
    Well, yes, its true that people will twist the meaning to support their own lifestyle. But I also think that the proof of the proper context is in the clarity it brings. For example, reading the Revelation of John does not make much sense when read literally but it make a lot of sense when read allegorically. Psalms doesn't make sense when read as a history text but it makes a lot of sense when understood as a devotional book. The Songs of Solomon also only make sense when read as poetry, Exodus makes sense when read as history, Romans makes sense when read as a letter explaining doctrine, etc.
  15. #275  
    No one can tell you what the Matrix is.
    You have to be shown.

    Oops, wrong thread.
    Wait! maybe not.
  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    No one can tell you what the Matrix is.
    You have to be shown.

    Oops, wrong thread.
    Wait! maybe not.
    What about the pyramids?
    Easter Island?
    Bigfoot and/or Sasquatch?
    The Loch Ness monster?
    Women? This one deserves its own thread: http://forums.precentral.net/off-topic/231156-help-wanted-can-anybody-explain-how-woman-thinks-anybody.html
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/18/2010 at 08:21 AM.
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Not yet. I was raised in what would be best described as an agnostic household in rural Western Canada. There was plenty of believers around but it was customary to leave your religious view at the church and out of politics. Therefor I wasn't exposed to any religious doctrine until I was an adult.

    What happens when you die is pretty clear if you have ever been to a funeral....rot sets in.
    So, is this accurate?
    Start.
    You got an idea.
    Never had a moment unsureness.
    Kept that idea forever (so far).
    End.

    Well, according to your graphical chart definition, you might be the most faithful person here.

    KAM
  18. KAM1138
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    #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Are you willing to accept that humanity's understanding is so imperfect that God doesn't exist at all, and are simply a morality tale that has passed from parent to child through the generations?

    After all, isn't that how most folks would characterize Greek / Roman / Norse mythology, or every other religion that they personally don't believe in?

    Paraphrasing Richard Dawkins' interesting take on atheism: Most people are atheists regarding every religion but their own; I merely take it one god further.
    It is a possibility.

    KAM
  19. KAM1138
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    #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Sure.....but not if there is an all knowing power directing the show. What possible reason could it have to hid the truth from us (or hide it in a collection of short stories)?
    When you say "directing the show" that contradicts my understanding of free will. What possible reason? Well, I can't rightfully explain another human's reasoning unless they tell me, so it would follow that I could apply the same to God's.

    On the other hand, Christianity believes that God did reveal himself to us--in human form no less. Someone's unwillingness to believe that for any reason isn't something you can really blame on God.

    The bottom line is that I can't claim to know what that reason is, but I can certainly understand that there could be a reason. People could wonder at what that reason might be, and my personal view is that it is related to free will, and the fact that we have it. My personal view is that the fact that Free will is something we have is why many things happen.

    KAM
  20. KAM1138
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    #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    And the believing crowd looks down on the atheists.
    What else is new.
    I can only speak for myself, but I do not look down on them. On the other hand, I question their belief as freely as they question mine.

    KAM

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