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  1. bugduk's Avatar
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    #621  
    She's not everyone's cup of tea. Her voice grates on my wife's nerves, for example, and we're both right of center. But she did do more than just yeoman's work against crony capitalism in AK. She was downright heroic. We need some of that nationwide right now.

    But in '12 I think she will attract a certain percentage of supporters, but then hit a wall, as the rest won't even consider supporting her.

    She has a real uphill fight, so if you hate her, I wouldn't worry too much.

    But why is this a thread on precentral? Sounds like Palin Derangement Syndrome to me.
  2. #622  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Anyone truly confident of their position would not mind approaching what is said from an opponent's viewpoint. The logic and science you've relied on so far has brought you far, but your conclusion that "miracles" were fabrications can only be taken on "faith". I'm not sure you have tested what's been documented about "miracles" throughout history or in the current day. I think you owe it to yourself (and your future capability to really win ("nail", "stick". and/or "cement" your case)) to continue forward in this discussion as a research project. Not showing this sort of resolve weakens your arguments to other readers (and if your positions are correct, allowing KAM and his ilk to continue weakens society).
    I appreciate your rational take on our discussion and frankly I respect your attitude. However my rejection of the existence of God runs very deep. Once a long time ago, I was willing to believe but as time passed by I saw more and more evidence that such a thing is really a figment of our imaginations.

    My natural tendency to question everything led to a lot of unanswered questions and disappointment. I've had many discussions like this and I've never been able to get satisfactory answers. They almost always ended with me having to 'accept' a certain viewpoint without any logical reasoning. That's unacceptable to me. And I believe that's the important distinction.

    Unfortunately the idea of a supreme being will not go away anytime soon. It will take many generations before that idea begins to fade but I'm optimistic it will happen some day.





    I don't consider faith as an "excuse" as much as a philosophical tool you can use to see if it brings you further than not using it. I understand it might feel like "giving up" or "giving in" to you, and that's part of the challenge. If you remain careful, methodical, and scientific in your approach, you'll find that you won't run a risk of getting "sucked in" unless you find reason to do so. The very least this approach will give you will be the capability to see how/why others get sucked in to all this hokus-pokus. Everyone on both sides should be willing to understand the reasoning of others whose opinions/beliefs/conclusions are incongruent with their own. I realize this challenge might seem immense, but given the amount of time you spent in this discussion so far, I see you as a person capable of doing this and coming out stronger in the end.
    Well as a person who was once a believer, and looking back into my childhood, it was clear my belief came from my parents, my school, friends, tv and the fact that at that age I was naturally more impressionable. However, I began to seriously question these beliefs in my teens and never looked back. Thankfully my parents let me make my own choices.

    I believe it depends on the individual's fortitude first and foremost, whether they eventually accept or reject these early influences. Of course other factors are involved but I believe it begins with the individual.

    To stop is to admit defeat without really giving it a try. I also think this could be a great learning experience for all involved.
    Well given the fact that this discussion ended no differently to every other I've ever had on this topic meant I was actually wasting my time. Honestly I wanted to bring it to a close and the technique I used was to summarize that person's overall intent and directly attack that rather than getting caught up in the 'padding' and circular logic.

    I will admit defeat when a plausible theory as to the existence of a supreme being arises. I will even be willing to forego actual proof, although such a feat for an all-powerful, all-knowing being shouldn't be difficult.

    Think about the amount of atheist-turned-believers there would be if this supreme being could perform just one miracle for everyone to see (not up on some mountain when no one's around). But I know I'd win the lotto 100 times over before that ever happens.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  3. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #623  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Think about the amount of atheist-turned-believers there would be if this supreme being could perform just one miracle for everyone to see (not up on some mountain when no one's around). But I know I'd win the lotto 100 times over before that ever happens.
    But would you really believe it? I'm guessing the more spectacular the miracle, the more likely non believers would dismiss it. The Catholic church has scientists (yes, real ones) on staff to investigate "miracles." Over the years, I believe that they have found several and disproved 100's if not thousands. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe your statement. Even if God himself were to appear you would still not believe.
  4. #624  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    But would you really believe it? I'm guessing the more spectacular the miracle, the more likely non believers would dismiss it. The Catholic church has scientists (yes, real ones) on staff to investigate "miracles." Over the years, I believe that they have found several and disproved 100's if not thousands. So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe your statement. Even if God himself were to appear you would still not believe.
    It would be very difficult to just dismiss it. Would I recognize God immediately? (I don't think anyone would) Probably not. A lot of other possibilities would most likely cross my mind first but in the end, I really don't think I'd have much of a choice but to believe a mind-boggling phenomenon just occured before me. Yeah it might take a while for the God aspect to sink in, but I'd surely have a second look at the Bible.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #625  
    Ok, might I suggest that someone start a new thread for this debate? We're waaay off topic. This is supposed to be the 'we think sarah's the bomb' thread, is it not?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #626  
    Thanks everyone for your comments and for tolerating my few long ("diverged topic") posts. I'll list a few websites that I've found helpful over the years. (They may be less helpful to you because many see Catholics as "just another group that believes they are right and everyone else is wrong". In reality, I think each group has to "call a spade a spade" and many of my Church's teaching are hard to accept (and even harder to practice). I found I had to go out on many limbs before coming back home. You might like some of these resources more than others:

    • Catholic Answers (website, weekly radio program, private number to call and ask any question you want, one on one with a Catholic Apologist. There is also an "Tracts" section that describes many other religions and answers to common questions they ask.)
    • EWTN (originally a radio/tv station, now on the internet too, Has a good library of documents under "Libraries->AudioLibrary" and "Libraries->DocumentLibrary". If you listen to this network for about a month in your spare time, you'll have a good idea about our beliefs and why).
    • Peter Kreeft's Website (He has good philosophy arguments about the existence of God and other things. It's a good place to review where your journey compared with his.)


    I could list more, but I don't want to burden anyone. Thank you everyone for the tolerance you have shown me in my posts. -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7. #627  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, might I suggest that someone start a new thread for this debate? We're waaay off topic. This is supposed to be the 'we think sarah's the bomb' thread, is it not?
    The moderator has spoken. I'll yield.

    Here's the Existence of God thread
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/16/2010 at 04:54 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #628  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    For starters my time was short, also i'm not sure what you wanted. You said back those claims up, I found and posted a few things, historically, which support what I stated as fact. What did you want me to do, hold your hand through a history lesson? Unless you can dispute any of it, then it is you that are pretending, perhaps based on blind faith. I'm sorry if you can't read through something you don't want the facts on. But it's like the joke I just read.
    The problem is that those links have lots of points. How would you like me to address them? Am I to assume, for example, that you find the entirety of a website about near-death experiences as factual? If not, why would you post it in support of your argument?

    So, here are the facts, Irenaeus wrote against the doctrine of reincarnation in Contra Haereses, as did Tertullian in his Apology. Both of these were from the 2nd Century. Origin, who is most quoted in support of the idea of reincarnation in the early church (including in your links) actually wrote at length against the idea in several commentaries on the Gospels. This not only shows direct evidence that the notion of reincarnation was against early church doctrine but it shows that the Gospels themselves were widely known by his time.
  9. #629  
    You are welcome to move this discussion:
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The problem is that those links have lots of points. How would you like me to address them? Am I to assume, for example, that you find the entirety of a website about near-death experiences as factual? If not, why would you post it in support of your argument?

    So, here are the facts, Irenaeus wrote against the doctrine of reincarnation in Contra Haereses, as did Tertullian in his Apology. Both of these were from the 2nd Century. Origin, who is most quoted in support of the idea of reincarnation in the early church (including in your links) actually wrote at length against the idea in several commentaries on the Gospels. This not only shows direct evidence that the notion of reincarnation was against early church doctrine but it shows that the Gospels themselves were widely known by his time.
    To here if you wish:
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The moderator has spoken. I'll yield.

    Here's the Existence of God thread
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10. #630  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, might I suggest that someone start a new thread for this debate? We're waaay off topic. This is supposed to be the 'we think sarah's the bomb' thread, is it not?
    Like this?

    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  11.    #631  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Like this?

    Jeebus! That's precious! I see it as Palin riding the tea party into a dusty grave while she runs off to the bank to deposit her 'speaking' money.
  12. drizek's Avatar
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    #632  
    It is amateur hour over at the republican party(in case it wasn't obvious during the 8 years they were running the country into the ground).
  13. #633  
    Quote Originally Posted by drizek View Post
    It is amateur hour over at the republican party(in case it wasn't obvious during the 8 years they were running the country into the ground).
    I think it's fair to say that both parties are running this country into the ground and there's plenty of blame to go around on all sides.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #634  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Jeebus! That's precious! I see it as Palin riding the tea party into a dusty grave while she runs off to the bank to deposit her 'speaking' money.
    She's made it pretty clear that she's still with the republican party, and isn't riding, driving, etc., the teapartiers. And as for 'speaking' money, perhaps she should foot the bill herself? I wonder what the talkers of the left do for income, cause surely they pay their own way to those speaking engagements.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #635  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I think it's fair to say that both parties are running this country into the ground and there's plenty of blame to go around on all sides.
    It may be fair to say it, but it would be wrong. The left has been in control of this country now since 2007.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #636  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    No, these don't seem similar at all, of course, I suspect you probably would have responded in the exact same way regardless of what I said. That's what I get for trying to give an honest answer.

    KAM
    I am not going to go into depth here as this conversation has been moved but let me address this. You may not see any similarities but you are denying that facts the many religions, especially catholicism, has had a very shady and secretive history. No different than Scientology
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  17. #637  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I am not going to go into depth here as this conversation has been moved but let me address this. You may not see any similarities but you are denying that facts the many religions, especially catholicism, has had a very shady and secretive history. No different than Scientology
    Does Sarah Palin practice Scientology or is she Catholic? Maybe she wrote on her palm the week before Easter?

    You can't take pot shots like you did without backing them up. Thanks for opening back up a closed can of worms.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  18. #638  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I think it's fair to say that both parties are running this country into the ground and there's plenty of blame to go around on all sides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It may be fair to say it, but it would be wrong. The left has been in control of this country now since 2007.
    Are you serious?

    sudoer says there's plenty of blame to go around, and you reply he's wrong?
    Just call me Berd.
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #639  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I am not going to go into depth here as this conversation has been moved but let me address this. You may not see any similarities but you are denying that facts the many religions, especially catholicism, has had a very shady and secretive history. No different than Scientology
    Your inability to understand the differences does not make them the same thing. Just the same as your inability to properly discern the differences between the words "cult" and "religion" don't mean they are the same. In short--you seem to fail to understand that your biased interpretation of things isn't necessarily representative of reality. That is of course the natural result of biased THINKING (different from a preferred conclusion).

    KAM
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