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  1. #461  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And that proposal also originally had a free public option that was removed to appease the conservatives, who by the way, didn't have a problem with everyone purchasing mandatory insurance. Is it also unconstitutional that I have to purchase auto insurance if I want to own a car? Here in CA, with our republican governor, they signed in a law that if you do not pay your auto insurance, the insurance company HAS to notify the DMV who then has the authority to impound your car. Is that constitutional? More evidence of conservative protecting corporations and screwing the common man.
    The FEDERAL government doesnt require you to have insurance on your car, so the US Constitution is not in play. Get the basics down will you.

    Same here in Nevada. How does me not having insurance screw the insurance company more than the common man?

    No insurance means no premium for the insurance company, but also no pay out. No insurance for the common man means no financial protection if they are hit by some a hole who thinks it's ok to speed or drink and drive or run red lites etc....

    Your argument might make sense if the benefit was only for the company but it's not. Your anti-corporation ranting is so old.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2. #462  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Weak rebuttal is weak...
    Weak because it's true. ANYONE who reads a word wrong three times like that is daft or sorely unprepared. Neither is a quality I want in my president.
    You keep giving Barry a free pass, I dont mind.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #463  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Very factual indeed, perhaps you should look into it, and try understanding what it is you actually believe in. It sounds like you would be very surprised.
    I'd invite you to present evidence for any of the assertions you've made. Pick one, any one. I'd be happy to discuss them with you. Look forward to your response.
    Just wanted to give you another opportunity to defend your positions.
    Last edited by groovy; 02/13/2010 at 03:28 PM.
  4. #464  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Why would we need love to procreate?
    Why do some animals mate for life? Why do some travel in packs and herds? They, like us, are animals and that is "love."

    I said I had experience. Didn't say I was or wasn't currently anything.
    Took you long enough to qualify that!

    Really, you have proof of this? Maybe they were stories of the authors experience with an alien race. Who knows? My problem with your statements is that you seem to think you have facts when you just don't.
    Originally, elves were thought up in the British Isles, I believe, as a way of explaining strange happenings. They took many shapes and sizes from animalistic to humanoid and could be good or evil or somewhere in between. But no matter what their moral predisposition, people would try to appease them anyways by making offerings of food on their doorsteps. It was also considered good luck to leave a few embers burning in the fireplace when you went to bed, so that fairies or fay could stay warm, and would do nice things for you. Or just leave you alone, whichever was more desirable. Elves as they are portrayed today as tall elegant people with pointed ears, are Tolkiens invention.

    Because they agree with you on some level. Understandably? yes. Fair? probably not.
    Which is why you discredit Obama....

    Yep churches only affect things on a local level.
    Care to offer up any examples to prove your point?

    Are you suggesting that wars are only started because of religion? Really?
    Isn't it just a tad convenient for the atheist to suggest that wars are always in the name of religion to further the atheist belief that religion is bad?
    I said recent wars. We are currently in two wars, why? Were we not attacked by muslims because of our countries "beliefs?"
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  5. #465  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Hey Ken how come you and redninja never seem to be online together and always support each others statements?
    Related?
    LOL you are on to us!!!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  6.    #466  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    (I assume it's a picture of you. Is this correct?)
    That's a picture of Groovy. Groovy's avatar is a picture of me.

  7. #467  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Hmm, thought you'd have gotten that. My point was that something that has been believed for so long may have some validity, at least to the believers.
    So I'm supposed to figure out that by your rather silly attempt at a rebuttal? I'm trying to play along with your weak, half-baked arguments, but you're not making it easy. And thanks for stating the obvious yet again: Of course the ones who have the belief will believe theirs is valid. It doesn't mean it is.

    How do you know they are not the same? Maybe the folklore came from an alien visitation.
    'Maybe' is not a valid argument. It usually means you've run out of material.

    So who is to say the belief wasn't an essential part?
    Even if it was, it wouldn't make my point any less valid.

    I meant just what I said. I have 30+ adult years as an atheist. Don't assume it means anything beyond the statement it self.
    Our assumptions are sound considering the construct of your wording. Maybe you should try to be a little more clear in your statements. In any case, given your pathetic showing here, I doubt you were ever a true atheist.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  8. #468  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's a picture of Groovy. Groovy's avatar is a picture of me.

    ROFLMAO... good one.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  9. #469  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    The FEDERAL government doesnt require you to have insurance on your car, so the US Constitution is not in play. Get the basics down will you.
    So states have authority to override your constitutional rights? You said that being forced to buy med ins was unconstitutional but being forced to buy auto ins is OK because it is from the state? That makes no sense whatsoever.

    Same here in Nevada. How does me not having insurance screw the insurance company more than the common man?
    Why should the gov mandate you purchase anything? Your money right? Do you want the gov to tell you how you have to spend it? This is conservatism/libertarianism 101 here.

    No insurance means no premium for the insurance company, but also no pay out. No insurance for the common man means no financial protection if they are hit by some a hole who thinks it's ok to speed or drink and drive or run red lites etc....
    OK, good. You need ins to protect yourself in case you get into an accident. you can't afford auto ins, don't drive. Easy. Now, what if you get sick and can not afford med ins and you job does not offer those benefits? Do you not deserve medical attention?

    Your argument might make sense if the benefit was only for the company but it's not. Your anti-corporation ranting is so old.
    I am not anti-corporation at all. I am pro fairness!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  10. #470  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    The bible is a work of fiction. Fiction does not determine anythings fate.
    This seems to be at best a somewhat confused statement. (I don't blame that confusion on you. I had similar uncertainty at one point in my life.) I think it might be more accurate for you to state the the Bible is a book that you do not understand (and perhaps one you are having trouble finding any meaning from).

    I can probably search for some more links on understanding the Bible (or I can identify some books to buy/read/borrow. I'd like to take that conversation offline rather than having it here. PM me if you want to do this. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I'm willing to do my best to find answers for you in a non-threatening and non-confrontational way.

    Here's a quick read that I just Googled that asks and attempts to answer the question of whether the Bible is fact, (or) fiction, (or possibly both).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #471  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Weak because it's true. ANYONE who reads a word wrong three times like that is daft or sorely unprepared. Neither is a quality I want in my president.
    You keep giving Barry a free pass, I dont mind.
    Discrediting a president for mispronouncing a word in one speach is a pretty weak argument. Was Bush unprepared because he could not pronounce "terror" or "nuclear?" And he did not "read" those wrong, he just couldn't say them right to save his life.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  12. #472  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's a picture of Groovy. Groovy's avatar is a picture of me.

    HaHa Your humor is a great relief from the otherwise intense discussions going on in here!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #473  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Discrediting a president for mispronouncing a word in one speach is a pretty weak argument. Was Bush unprepared because he could not pronounce "terror" or "nuclear?" And he did not "read" those wrong, he just couldn't say them right to save his life.
    But he also looked pretty stupid to the rest of the country each time he did that. Impressions count (both Bush looking "stupid" and Palin looking "hot") as much as I'd like to believe otherwise.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #474  
    DaThomas me thinks you have a degree majoring in the minors!
  15. #475  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    ... So if we get enough people to believe that elves are real long enough, it will come true?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    To humor you, can you prove elves are not real?
    They are not real because they were a creation of authors and storytellers as part of a story of fantacy.
    Damn, I thought elves existed and baked cookies. (Looks like I've been abused by corporations again!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    ... I see atheists as being more open minded and more curious about the world around them. They are more willing to explore the creation of the world and our universe rather then relying on accepting a predetermined story.
    I'll go as far as to say most atheists I've met are less close minded than many people I've met who believe in a creator, but they have been far from being open minded either. Atheists often rely heavily in a belief in science, but they accept theories as givens rather than explanations that have yet to be proven.

    EDIT: Creationists often error in the other direction. They dismiss science without applying logic towards it's conclusions to check whether their own beliefs might possibly be wrong. (In other words, if they were truly confident in their beliefs, they would not worry about the outcome of such challenges.)

    Often the best way to "prove someone wrong" is to start with the assumption that maybe they are right (and then see where that leads). I find some of what you say to be really helpful for me in this way.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/13/2010 at 04:28 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #476  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    This seems to be at best a somewhat confused statement. (I don't blame that confusion on you. I had similar uncertainty at one point in my life.) I think it might be more accurate for you to state the the Bible is a book that you do not understand (and perhaps one you are having trouble finding any meaning from).
    I call it fiction for a reason. I think that many of the stories could very well be based on actual events, but it is like a grand game of "telephone." As a story gets passed down it gets more elaborate and more exaggerated until there is not much truth left in it. As I understand it, the bible is actually comprised of many books or gospels. these gospels where stories passed on from religious leaders until finally they were put into a written form. Even when they were being written, there is evidence of those writing them took liberties over the original stories in order to make it easier for the reader to understand and to convey a message that they felt needed to get out.

    Do I believe that there could have been a Jesus? Yes I do. I think he could have been an evangelical or religious leader like what we have today. What I don't believe in is the exagerations around him like virgin birth or his many miracles. I feel he was just a man that was trying to do good.

    I can probably search for some more links on understanding the Bible (or I can identify some books to buy/read/borrow. I'd like to take that conversation offline rather than having it here. PM me if you want to do this. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert, but I'm willing to do my best to find answers for you in a non-threatening and non-confrontational way.

    Here's a quick read that I just Googled that asks and attempts to answer the question of whether the Bible is fact, (or) fiction, (or possibly both).
    Thank you very much. That was an interesting link.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #477  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    As I understand it, the bible is actually comprised of many books or gospels. these gospels where stories passed on from religious leaders until finally they were put into a written form.
    It depends on which books you're referring to. If you're talking about the New Testament, the criteria that the early church used to determine which books were included is that they had to be written by an apostle of Jesus or someone who was a close disciple of an apostle of Jesus. The notable exception is the Book of Hebrews which some considered to be a work of Paul. For all practical purposes, the books included in the NT were already in wide circulation by the early 2nd Century and certainly well known by the time of Constantine.
  18. #478  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's a picture of Groovy. Groovy's avatar is a picture of me.


    WOW.....groovy is scary looking....his opinions don't seem to fit his picture, that's for sure.
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  19. #479  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I call it fiction for a reason. I think that many of the stories could very well be based on actual events, but it is like a grand game of "telephone." As a story gets passed down it gets more elaborate and more exaggerated until there is not much truth left in it.
    Your not alone in your thinking, and I'm not an expert, but I'll give you a few things to consider:
    • The Jews were very careful about accurately handing down their stories, so the stories have probably diverged less than you're imagining due to their importance in their lives.
    • I've seen cases where both instances of a biblical story are each presented (in sequence) in the Bible. The first example of this is the creation story in Genesis. What's more important is the theological meaning. It seems to me the Bible has preserved meaning rather than throwing it out. It makes for harder reading. Commentaries can often help here, but then it's sort of "like the internet" where you have to evaluate the commentary much more suspiciously than you do the Biblical words themselves.
    • I mentioned a while back in a previous post there are like 7 different writing styles in the Bible and your observation bears this out. It helps to start with the historical books of the Bible and to read those first and then fill in more reading later with the other parts.
    • It also helps to be able to connect meanings between the OT and the NT. Many Christian churches ignore a lot of the OT and this weakens the meaning of the NT. I understand very little on this front at the current moment. Sometimes you can find a J e w who has accepted Jesus and they are much better at making these connections.
    • The three synoptic Gospels do a good job of portraying the life of Jesus in a very understandable way. Acts is a historical introduction to life in the Early Church.
    • The Gospel of John and the letters of Paul go much deeper in terms of theological meaning. Especially the Pauline letters. This is the point where I find immense help by reading Navarre Bible commentaries. These teach the Catholic interpretation of the Scriptures and the commentary often provides quotes from the Church Fathers (which are historical, but not canonical). I like to put more credence in how people of the time understood the scriptures than what many people of today might say. (They were "closer to Jesus" and more likely to have more correct understandings.)
    • There are numerous "translations" of the Bible. Some are more faithful to the original words and their sequence, while others replace phrases no longer in common usage today with dynamic equivalents. The best Bibles for me are usually somewhere between each of these goals. When they go too far towards modern language, beauty and some important literal meaning can be lost. What's most important at first is that the Bible speaks to you. (Notice I didn't say "preach" to you here. It might feel that way, but since you haven't yet accepted the reading as truth, you just need to be able to understand it well enough to make good judgments about whether it could be true or not.)


    Of course you also know the Bible claims many things that are difficult to accept. Most of these have to do with sin. We are all guilty of sin, so don't let anyone dupe you into thinking your sin is worse than others. (Usually it is not, unless you are me.) If you believe the Bible, you can believe that God sent Jesus to stand in for us sinners before God (who Jesus also is - confusing, I know).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    As I understand it, the bible is actually comprised of many books or gospels. these gospels where stories passed on from religious leaders until finally they were put into a written form.
    I'm not really knowledgeable about the history of when each book was written to give you more than a "general" comment. We are in a much better position today at having accurate and historical evidence regarding "the telephone game". The books of the Bible were hand copied and history has done a pretty good job of piecing things together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Even when they were being written, there is evidence of those writing them took liberties over the original stories in order to make it easier for the reader to understand and to convey a message that they felt needed to get out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Do I believe that there could have been a Jesus? Yes I do. I think he could have been an evangelical or religious leader like what we have today. What I don't believe in is the exagerations around him like virgin birth or his many miracles. I feel he was just a man that was trying to do good.
    First of all, until you can believe that Jesus was either who he says he is, or not, you should work to either accept the NT as God's word, or to totally reject Jesus as an evil man who claimed to be God but wasn't. I feel your uncertainty regarding a virgin birth. There are even Christians who have a hard time believing a lot of what the Bible says. So far, I believe you have tried to believe it, and if there is a God, your defense on judgment day will be a lot easier than mine and others will be. (More is expected of those to whom more has been given.) Along this same line, belief in God is a grace that he gives us as a gift. Don't feel guilty if the Bible does not speak to you. Pray "if you are a God, please help me to understand" and the rest either will or will not happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Thank you very much. That was an interesting link.
    For some reason, I find religion to be really overwhelming to explain but pretty simple in practice. For me, God has been very patient with my apparent lack of understanding, and the confusion generated by the multiple "religions" of the world. I also find it really hard to explain what I believe to others, but I don't worry about it. It's really unfortunate for those "outside the faith" to see people who claim to be religious to disagree and to treat their common man with disrespect. I believe even the "little bit of God" you get from the Bible is likely sufficient for what you need. The laws of God are really written in our hearts, and you have a good understanding of this. I hope you are able to find more, but I'm also not worried about God's plan for you. I believe it will happen at the right time! (Thanks again for your ear.)

    sincerely,
    --
    Bob
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/13/2010 at 07:58 PM. Reason: J e w is a nasty word?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #480  
    At least some on still uses a Palm

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