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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    So when in your development do you consider yourself worthy of living?
    The easy answer would be sometime in the sixth month when I could live outside my mother's body, which is around the time I would be able to converse at the same level of those who would deny a woman the right to choose....but that would be too easy.

    Several people on this thread have commented about how angry it makes pro-choice people when people choose to carry a baby to term. That is ridiculous. I'm glad Tebow's mother decided to go ahead; it was her choice to do so, and she was the only one that should be able to decide, unless she wanted to include her spouse or partner in the decision. I am delighted when women have babies...I've delivered a few, very few in my time, and it's a very cool thing. But I will absolutely fight like hell to avoid having her choice taken away. Even the octomom should have a choice, right?
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The easy answer would be sometime in the sixth month when I could live outside my mother's body, which is around the time I would be able to converse at the same level of those who would deny a woman the right to choose....but that would be too easy.
    So in other words, you have no problem aborting children that are born prematurely, living in the NICU and surviving? Nice. Oh, and if you decide to reply, could you do so in a more adult manor? That way I could at least respect you for trying. Thanks.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    So in other words, you have no problem aborting children that are born prematurely, living in the NICU and surviving? Nice. Oh, and if you decide to reply, could you do so in a more adult manor? That way I could at least respect you for trying. Thanks.
    Nope, I don't have a problem. In general, the survival rate of babies born at 22 weeks is zero. At 24 weeks the percent leaving the hospital is around 15% and 3/4 of those have significant impairment. Having said that, I would strongly favor much earlier abortions or the use of the morning after pill, which has been fought so hard by the right. But mostly, I believe in educating pregnant women about what their chances are of having a significantly impaired baby, or what the risks may be to her own life. Then, she gets to make the decision...not me. If she chooses to not abort, more power to her....she made the informed choice. I do NOT favor abortion; I favor choice.
  4.    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Now now. Let's not have a tantrum. When you grow up you'll be able to deal with criticism.
    lmao I do deal with criticism very well if I say so. You're just annoying keeping this thread going on and on I just don't like you from the you're I've seen so I'll say "Get of this thread" OH! Davidra trust me you will never in a debate or argument against me.
  5.    #105  
    post* win*
  6.    #106  
    Everyone's talk about abortion is not what this thread is suppose to be about it's suppose to be about a very overated QB from Florida that isn't all that cracked up to be and him having a commercial on a very important day which is Super Bowl day. He shouldn't have a commercial in the first place I could care less what that commercial was about and abortions to put my cents in is that women should have choice in they're life and no one should control it abortion is bad and good both have benefits and I'm sure someone has said that on here but I'm way too lazy to read 20 paragraphs from Davidra cause he has a lot of time and he has a big mouth most of his posts are not that important to many. Women should have the say about a exciting chapter in they're life to either have a child or have the fetus be aborted and have it studied and used for the good the women will take the right choice for they're own good and not everyone else because geuss what? The people against abortions don't have to through 9 months and the whole pregnacy so have respect for a person's choice we are all here and we all learn from mistakes and the choices we make it's a big part of what we call life may there be a God or not we're on this Earth as our home so back to Tim Tebow he's not that good and case closed I'm a very stuborn person when it comes to football so say I'm dumb and stupid and I don't have a period button all you want sooner or later you'll get tired of backing up Tebow a person you never met and attacking me I won't stop saying my belief that Tebow is not a good QB.
  7. #107  
    noxaj2, well said! I suspected you weren't happy about all the side discussions. Some of them were necessary, but I agree it's time to get back to football and/or why the commercial itself should or should not be aired. I'm not much of a sports fan and I never could keep up with all the aspects of game play when participating myself. I'm better able to appreciate individual sports over team sports for this reason. The points you make about Tebow being overrated are likely due to sportscasters focusing on him as an individual rather than part of a team. Do you think this is the case?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by noxaj2 View Post
    Tim Tebow he's not that good and case closed I'm a very stuborn person when it comes to football so say I'm dumb and stupid and I don't have a period button all you want sooner or later you'll get tired of backing up Tebow a person you never met and attacking me I won't stop saying my belief that Tebow is not a good QB.
    I would say your stubborn because his stats, awards, and national championship(s) show otherwise.

    By the way, not meeting a person in person has nothing to do with if he is a good person or not (and that applies to you too). I hope you can understand that.
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    #109  
    Didn't mean to be a part of a hijacking. Ok. People don't like this football player so he doesn't deserve a commercial. I don't know anything about him other than he is a football player and some consider him a good one since he won the Heisman. No one here has seen the ad (have they?) so no one knows what the ad is going to be like. We can guess that he is in the ad not only because he won the Heisman, but he was also a candidate for being aborted and wasn't. If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have the commercial (at least not this one).

    Way too much hate in here for a debate over one's performance in a silly game. I'm guessing it has more to do with the other stuff that came up in the thread.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Didn't mean to be a part of a hijacking. Ok. People don't like this football player so he doesn't deserve a commercial. I don't know anything about him other than he is a football player and some consider him a good one since he won the Heisman. No one here has seen the ad (have they?) so no one knows what the ad is going to be like. We can guess that he is in the ad not only because he won the Heisman, but he was also a candidate for being aborted and wasn't. If that wasn't the case, he wouldn't have the commercial (at least not this one).

    Way too much hate in here for a debate over one's performance in a silly game. I'm guessing it has more to do with the other stuff that came up in the thread.
    Super Bowl commercial ===> antiabortion message ===> discussion about abortion. And you really think this is a major hijacking? The question about whether or not he "deserves" a commercial is nonsensical. If it gets paid for, he "deserves" it. It's the content that has caused the uproar in public, and it's the content that caused the discussion here. He is in the ad because his mother chose not to have an abortion when one was recommended; she chose not to and had Tim. Great, no problem. If a religious organization wants to spend their money on the Super Bowl, I have no problem with that, even if I disagree with what I expect the message will be....which will be to remove the choice that Pam had. If a pro-choice group want to advertise they should be allowed to as well as long as they meet the network's criteria for quality and acceptable content.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Super Bowl commercial ===> antiabortion message ===> discussion about abortion. And you really think this is a major hijacking?
    It's not, but for the sake of the peace, let's not argue about arguing!
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The question about whether or not he "deserves" a commercial is nonsensical.
    If that's the case, no need to even participate in the thread any more.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    If it gets paid for, he "deserves" it.
    People get paid for things they don't deserve all the time. In my opinion, the mythical zombie I brought up earlier likely "deserves" this commercial more than Tebow.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It's the content that has caused the uproar in public, and it's the content that caused the discussion here.
    Agreed.

    noxaj2 wishes both the commercial and the surrounding conversation were more about football and having fun. The way to reach people "outside of your camp" is to show them you have interest in what they do. noxaj2 has a point that we can learn a bit about his world while in this thread. noxaj2 is closer to you than me in his idealolgy, so embrace this and talk about things that interest him.

    Tebow had some interesting "advantages" in his high school football "career" because he was home-schooled. In a sense, he got to hand-pick the type of team he was best for. Few kids have such advantages, so in a way, he and his family "gamed" the system. It might be interesting to see how this played out during his college career. Having everyone around you telling you that you're great can really go to your head. I beleive the best QBs have immense discipline to stay focused on the mission and to keep what others are saying out of their weekly mental picture. noxaj2 (and other fans), how close is what I'm thinking to what happens with Tebow and other QBs? (Trying to move the conversation back to football as best as I can.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    noxaj2 wishes both the commercial and the surrounding conversation were more about football and having fun. The way to reach people "outside of your camp" is to show them you have interest in what they do. noxaj2 has a point that we can learn a bit about his world while in this thread. noxaj2 is closer to you than me in his idealolgy, so embrace this and talk about things that interest him.

    Tebow had some interesting "advantages" in his high school football "career" because he was home-schooled. In a sense, he got to hand-pick the type of team he was best for. Few kids have such advantages, so in a way, he and his family "gamed" the system. It might be interesting to see how this played out during his college career. Having everyone around you telling you that you're great can really go to your head. I beleive the best QBs have immense discipline to stay focused on the mission and to keep what others are saying out of their weekly mental picture. noxaj2 (and other fans), how close is what I'm thinking to what happens with Tebow and other QBs? (Trying to move the conversation back to football as best as I can.)
    Yes, the fact that his judgement is so rational about choice and so irrational about Tebow is a little scary, but whatever. Several of my friends and coworkers know Tebow reasonably well. They work in student health and are also team docs. According to them, he is totally authentic, there isn't a mean bone in his body, and he is exactly as he appears on TV. That clearly doesn't mean he will make it in the pros. We've already had a great college QB at Florida who didn't do squat in the pros, after showing up Peyton Mannng for four years in college and winning his Heisman. But Tebow is a different animal than Wuerffel. Yesterday Van Pelt and someone on ESPN were talking about the Hall of Fame guys and Kiper pointed out that both Emmit Smith (another Gator, of course) and Jerry Rice were considered too slow in the 40 and were passed over by many teams before getting drafted. One has more receptions that anyone in history, one has more rushing yards than anyone. The nice thing is we'll get to find out how good he is, because I'm sure whoever drafts him will give him a shot as a QB. Personally, I wouldn't bet against him.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    She simply did what she thought was right (against "medical" advice).
    Yes, we disagree on terminology. I sang and read to my zygotes (which comforted them). They are all avid readers now (more so than their stupid father).
    No, you didn't do any such thing to zygotes. I had considered replying to Kenanator's well-crafted strawmen on this subject in another thread, but declined to spend time on it. When we are referring to abortion generally, we are well past the zygote stage. The problem on 'both sides' is that we are not honest with ourselves on human development. 'Conservatives' tend to fall into the extreme position of defending the 'beginning' of life, and 'Liberals' tend to drift towards the 'you aren't a person until you're in my phone book' stage. Both are emotional positions. Ultimately we won't advance the argument until we admit that humans are animals like any other. We go through stages of development in the womb resembling several other evolutionary phases that humans would have theoretically gone through.
    We've both established that we are in agreement on this point. My point was to see if you'd be willing to admit that killing of helpless zygotes might be considered perhaps as cruel (or more so) than killing baby veal for meat, or fur for a coat? [...]
    The only time a zygote is 'killed' is with a 'morning after pill'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No, you didn't do any such thing to zygotes. I had considered replying to Kenanator's well-crafted strawmen on this subject in another thread, but declined to spend time on it. When we are referring to abortion generally, we are well past the zygote stage. The problem on 'both sides' is that we are not honest with ourselves on human development. 'Conservatives' tend to fall into the extreme position of defending the 'beginning' of life, and 'Liberals' tend to drift towards the 'you aren't a person until you're in my phone book' stage. Both are emotional positions. Ultimately we won't advance the argument until we admit that humans are animals like any other. We go through stages of development in the womb resembling several other evolutionary phases that humans would have theoretically gone through.

    The only time a zygote is 'killed' is with a 'morning after pill'.
    You are absolutely correct about zygotes. And also that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Personally, I would try to convince any woman who was past the first trimester to not have an abortion unless there were health issues...but I still maintain it is her choice. And one obvious way to decrease abortions is to do what the military just did this week: make the morning after pill readily available. Instead, the right has fought long and hard for the rights of that zygote. Absurd.
  15. #115  
    about a very overated QB from Florida
    Dude. 2 National Championships. A Heisman Trophy.

    He may very well be the best college football player of all time, and did it with class. Can you really be so obtuse? Numbers seldom lie. And in the rare occasions when they do, intangbles pick up the slack, and he possessed those as well. Just admit your jealous that he didn't choose the university you follow already. And get over it.


    Besides, the Devin Gardner era is about to begin soon anyway.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No, you didn't do any such thing to zygotes.
    ...
    The only time a zygote is 'killed' is with a 'morning after pill'.
    Thanks Toby for the clarification. I don't have time to check and verify every assertion that Davidra makes. I only assumed he was being forthright about what he was saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You are absolutely correct about zygotes.
    I guess he wasn't.

    In spite of Davidra's incorrect use of terminology, let's put that past us (at least in this thread). We can start a new one or find a more apropos thread to continue this conversation in. (Someone please PM me if that happens.)

    For the record: noxaj2's articulation of what he feels and why has done more for me to understand how abortion rights proponents think than anything I've seen written by Davidra or Kenanator so far. You all should be taking more queues from him.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17.    #117  
    Ok once I only read few posts but to really destroy your facts and stats about Tebow I bring this like I've done in the very beginning of last season Florida itself had the easiest schedule in college football I'm not the kind of guy to shove stats on a forum I want you sense you took the time to post on this thread you wouldn't mind going on ESPN and looking at it yourself and compare it to other teams schedules and that can fix Tebow's stats because he played alot of easy teams I think one of the first few matches they played was against Troy and that was broadcasted for the sake Tebow I remember seeing it saying why is this on tv when Troy had no chance in the first and Tebow and the Gators put up more than 40 points while Troy had so little.
  18.    #118  
    Of* Place*
  19.    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by JDGAFFLIN View Post
    Dude. 2 National Championships. A Heisman Trophy.

    He may very well be the best college football player of all time, and did it with class. Can you really be so obtuse? Numbers seldom lie. And in the rare occasions when they do, intangbles pick up the slack, and he possessed those as well. Just admit your jealous that he didn't choose the university you follow already. And get over it.


    Besides, the Devin Gardner era is about to begin soon anyway.
    Your post really makes you look like a noob at football. I'm sorry it does.
  20.    #120  
    And one thing to put for the commercial for this Super Bowl he shouldn't have I think this year HT winner should have a commercial and that the BCS winner should get a commercial for this years Super Bowl. The Super Bowl is part of many lives in America rather you like NFL or not people watch it for parties for the sake of NFL ending the season the commercials are always on the talk on the next day of the Super Bowl so it's kinda a big deal I'm just feel Tebow for what little of impression to me he shouldn't have one.

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