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  1. #81  
    The confusing thing to me is why abortion advocates are so upset about some one like Tim Tebow discussing the positives that came from his mother not choosing abortion? Isn't that messed up thinking? Wouldn't most sane people applaud a woman going through with a pregnancy vs opting for an abortion? Unless there is something in the commercial that I don't know about, what is wrong with celebrating the choice of life?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You're kidding, right? Have you discussed your theory with Catholics? I would be glad to stop making it about religion when religions stop trumpeting about opposing abortion being a "family value".
    If noxaj2 doesn't mind branching the discussion to be about Catholics, I'm willing to discuss your concerns here.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Deciding the fate of an unwanted child is a choice that I wish noone ever had to make. How many women do you really think like the decision they are faced with? How many fathers pressure the mother into aborting the child simply because they did not forsee that parenting would be a potential outcome of their ""conquest"? Sorry for the strong and presumptuous language here, but the point I've been trying to make, in general, here is that we men need to stand up and be accountable for our actions. We can't just leave the "choice" to our women. So no, I don't favor a "choice" when it is made at the expense of an innocent child simply due to the selfishness of their parent(s). If you agree with me this far, we can move onto more nuanced situations where committed couples might decide to abort a child. (yes?/no?)
    The Pre lady would be a prime candidate.
    And no, I don't agree with you because I don't agree that a zygote is a child, and I don't agree that all choices are being made because of the selfishness of their parents. If Tebow's mother had chosen to abort, after being cautioned by her doctors about the risk, would you have considered her selfish?
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Hey, thanks for your advice. Based solely on your comments, I am a changed man. You have so convinced me. I really appreciate being educated by you, as well, about how I should live my life and what I should accept and not accept.
    I though we were having a discussion and I was raising counter-points to yours. I would hope that we each learn from each other. I think you have some good points that you should articulate further rather than poking fun at me for engaging in discussion with you. I think we really need to be open to understanding each others point of view.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    No wonder you are opposed to choice. Making sense now.
    Name calling and stereotyping aren't conducive to learning. We live in a very polarized democracy precisely because of such divisive actions and lack of understanding. Let's try here and work to right that wrong.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #85  
    Well, without getting into this ridiculous debate about Tim Tebow's belfief structure, I will admit, I'm Pro-Choice. That's my stand.

    That being said, if he wants to make an anti-abortion commercial, I don't really care. Him and I have differing views. It certainly doesn't make him "suck" or any less of a human being becasue of it. Bottom line is some people here need to get over them selves.

    Guy is a postive role model. As long as he isn't ramming his belief structure down my throat, does it really matter? Damn, it's just a TV commercial. Change the f'in' channel if you dont want to see it.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I though we were having a discussion and I was raising counter-points to yours. I would hope that we each learn from each other. I think you have some good points that you should articulate further rather than poking fun at me for engaging in discussion with you. I think we really need to be open to understanding each others point of view.

    Name calling and stereotyping aren't conducive to learning. We live in a very polarized democracy precisely because of such divisive actions and lack of understanding. Let's try here and work to right that wrong.
    Without mentioning names, certain people in here enjoy poking fun at you if your opinion is different or if, God forbid, you happen to come from a state such as South Carolina. Many who are so adamant for abortion "rights", simply cannot understand those that would prefer a woman carry the baby to term....oops...I said "baby to term", you see, that is wrong....it should be carry "fetus to term". Saying "baby" paints a rather nasty picture.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The Pre lady would be a prime candidate.
    And no, I don't agree with you because I don't agree that a zygote is a child,
    She simply did what she thought was right (against "medical" advice).
    Yes, we disagree on terminology. I sang and read to my zygotes (which comforted them). They are all avid readers now (more so than their stupid father).

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ... and I don't agree that all choices are being made because of the selfishness of their parents. ...
    We've both established that we are in agreement on this point. My point was to see if you'd be willing to admit that killing of helpless zygotes might be considered perhaps as cruel (or more so) than killing baby veal for meat, or fur for a coat? I'm trying to raise some compassion and soften your extreme position. I was just reaching to see if there is even an ounce of compassion in your mind that killing life might not be the best alternative here. You can just say that you don't want to soften your position and we can move on anyways.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #88  
    You have to take Tebows situation as a whole, including his surroundings and his family and their siutation. If you can get this support, this can work out for the best most everytime. Unfortuneatly, not everyone gets this, but I personally believe child should get this chance. I have seen children who were wanted badly and raised well but still live a life where they dont grow up to expectation too.
    You can't compare the Palins to this situation. a) its not the same and b) the child is still a baby so you cant tell what the child would become yet. The Tebows didnt know about Tim until he was older.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Deciding the fate of an unwanted child is a choice that I wish noone ever had to make. How many women do you really think like the decision they are faced with? How many fathers pressure the mother into aborting the child simply because they did not forsee that parenting would be a potential outcome of their ""conquest"? Sorry for the strong and presumptuous language here, but the point I've been trying to make, in general, here is that we men need to stand up and be accountable for our actions. We can't just leave the "choice" to our women. So no, I don't favor a "choice" when it is made at the expense of an innocent child simply due to the selfishness of their parent(s). If you agree with me this far, we can move onto more nuanced situations where committed couples might decide to abort a child. (yes?/no?)
    In a perfect world, this would be great. Sadly, in most cases, these decisions are made by younger women and the men have jumped ship, so to speak. If the men were to actually stick around for this choice, I am sure there would be a lot less dead beat dads...

    And now for a bit of humor (just to lighten the discussion a bit):

    In order to show a "balanced" view of both sides, maybe what we need next is a commercial with a grown, aborted zombie telling us about how they've been affected by their mother's choice. Maybe the creepy Palm Pre lady would be the right person for such a commercial.
    It would be a role to play a nugget floating in a jar, and I do not think that the Palm Lady has the charisma to play that part...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

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    - H.L. Mencken
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    OK..so given your response, you favor having women consider the options when they are pregnant (which is really groundbreaking), but we can also assume that you favor allowing women the right to choose, correct? As someone who lives in the same town and roots for Tim Tebow, I'm delighted his mother made the choice she did. But it was her choice, not the doctor's. She had a choice. You certainly must favor that, correct?
    I'm astounded that you have a response to my response, but I guess given YOUR response, a few assumptions can be made. 1) You dont know what beliefs I have because I have not expressed them. 2) Women have choices long before the choice of aborting. (thats not a belief, but the truth) 3) My argument is NOT about abortion, but the defense of the commercial to air.

    By the way, look at my avatar. I live in the same region as Tim Tebow's parents and has even seen him play football down at Nease a few times, which means I'm not far from you. Considering the heavy-Christian/Catholic population of this region, I can understand why you feel that you need to change people's mind to be Pro-Choice. But understand, your should quit while you're ahead with me...my argument is NOT ABOUT ABORTION choices. Its about the commercial's legitimacy to air. And stop your feeble attempts to peg me into a stereotype/group. Lets stick to the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    His mother was given the CHOICE and that is all I wish for. I want women to have the freedom to make their own choices in this matter. It is not per my beliefs or your morals, it is up to the individual woman to make that decision for herself.
    Umm, can you quote what I said that oppresses women from having choices? I dont understand why you think you and I have an argument/disagreement. Other people in this thread has expressed more of their views regarding the Pro-choice/life argument than I. How did I become your target? Are you just trying to spread your views on others? If so, you are becoming like those you are trying to change.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by JDGAFFLIN View Post
    Well, without getting into this ridiculous debate about Tim Tebow's belfief structure, I will admit, I'm Pro-Choice. That's my stand.

    That being said, if he wants to make an anti-abortion commercial, I don't really care. Him and I have differing views. It certainly doesn't make him "suck" or any less of a human being becasue of it. Bottom line is some people here need to get over them selves.

    Guy is a postive role model. As long as he isn't ramming his belief structure down my throat, does it really matter? Damn, it's just a TV commercial. Change the f'in' channel if you dont want to see it.
    Thanks! One of the better ways to put things.

    Funny...someone once pointed out to me that someone on the corner with a Bible gets scorned more than a yard jockey telling to you to eat at their establishment. What if you dont like their place because you are lactose-intolerant, or a vegan, or just not into Sushi that day...do you honk your horn in passing and yell out "I should have a choice, you *****!"?

    Just ignore what you dont want to pay attention to.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    In a perfect world, this would be great. Sadly, in most cases, these decisions are made by younger women and the men have jumped ship, so to speak. If the men were to actually stick around for this choice, I am sure there would be a lot less dead beat dads...
    I'm inclined to agree holding men responsible might have a deterrent effect. If a dude causes say 5 abortions, he clearly is not learning any lessons and likely causing mental anguish for many of these mother's later in life. Proof of paternity record keeping should be a standard practice for the protection of the mother in the event that the abortion later causes her harm.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #93  
    Hello Everyone,

    This is a side note, but I thought I would share. A couple that I know this week adopted a 5 Week old Baby girl, who was born to a teenage mother, who gave her up for Adoption right after she was born--giving false information regarding her identity (even though there is no penalty). They are elated to receive this child into their family (their second adopted child).

    They had been waiting 3 years.

    KAM
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by JDGAFFLIN View Post
    Well, without getting into this ridiculous debate about Tim Tebow's belfief structure, I will admit, I'm Pro-Choice. That's my stand.

    That being said, if he wants to make an anti-abortion commercial, I don't really care. Him and I have differing views. It certainly doesn't make him "suck" or any less of a human being becasue of it. Bottom line is some people here need to get over them selves.

    Guy is a postive role model. As long as he isn't ramming his belief structure down my throat, does it really matter? Damn, it's just a TV commercial. Change the f'in' channel if you dont want to see it.
    That's a very good point. That should tell you something about people who rabidly oppose the rights of someone to display their opposing views. Not so much the champion of rights they pretend to be perhaps.

    KAM
  15. KAM1138
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Umm, can you quote what I said that oppresses women from having choices? I dont understand why you think you and I have an argument/disagreement. Other people in this thread has expressed more of their views regarding the Pro-choice/life argument than I. How did I become your target? Are you just trying to spread your views on others? If so, you are becoming like those you are trying to change.
    Yes, excellent point.

    KAM
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The Pre lady would be a prime candidate.
    And no, I don't agree with you because I don't agree that a zygote is a child, and I don't agree that all choices are being made because of the selfishness of their parents. If Tebow's mother had chosen to abort, after being cautioned by her doctors about the risk, would you have considered her selfish?
    So when in your development do you consider yourself worthy of living?
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The Pre lady would be a prime candidate.
    And no, I don't agree with you because I don't agree that a zygote is a child, and I don't agree that all choices are being made because of the selfishness of their parents. If Tebow's mother had chosen to abort, after being cautioned by her doctors about the risk, would you have considered her selfish?
    Every pregnancy carries risk. This is that gray zone that is always jumped on by the pro choicers. But what they are defending *is* the selfish choice, not the risk based choice.

    Obviously her's was a difficult situation. I can understand a mother and wife wishing to avoid undue risk, especially when a family is depending on her. I sure wouldn't want to have to make that choice.

    I think we'd all be happy if we could greatly reduce the number of 'selfish' abortions - through education, and with compassion.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Certainly wasn't 100% effective in the Palin family, but I suppose you are right, they must not have been applied appropriately. I do tend to jump to conclusions in applying group data to individuals (it's a professional thing). The more accurate way to say it is that based on population-based studies, abstinence pledges do not prevent sexual activity statistically. However, that is for the group studied, not for each individual person. But you know what would be even more effective? Combine parental education, role modeling, and significant education to prevent pregnancy. What I can interpret from the data is that abstinence vows don't work for many families, and my guess is that it is likely that adding education would be helpful, probably in a big way. Do you agree? Is that better?
    A little. But, leave out the gimmicky "abstinence pledges" for a moment and look at abstinence education. I think you'll find that it work more that you give it credit for. And, there is a statistically significant difference:

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med -- Abstract: Efficacy of a Theory-Based Abstinence-Only Intervention Over 24 Months: A Randomized Controlled Trial With Young Adolescents, February 2010, Jemmott et al. 164 (2): 152
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by renaldobenjamin View Post
    OH HELL NO! I swear to G-Whiz if I see him on my t.v one more time I will find out where he lives and break his kneecaps before the draft so he won't be able to play that ******** needs to get out of football. He is so over-rated it's not even funny. Everytime I turn on sprtscenter BAM! Tim Tebow and I am sick of this ****!


    Threat to do bodily harm?
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    A little. But, leave out the gimmicky "abstinence pledges" for a moment and look at abstinence education. I think you'll find that it work more that you give it credit for. And, there is a statistically significant difference:

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med -- Abstract: Efficacy of a Theory-Based Abstinence-Only Intervention Over 24 Months: A Randomized Controlled Trial With Young Adolescents, February 2010, Jemmott et al. 164 (2): 152
    OK. Good work. I can't get the whole article until I get to work, but in spite of the fact that they played fast and loose with the statistics (which we can discuss if you really want to; essentially they used multiple comparisons) there does seem to be a borderline significant difference (by the confidence interval, just barely) but it also seems to be reasonably clinically worthwhile. I would like to see more info, because this kind of study is so dependent on anonymity. That's not a problem if the data are collected for each group in exactly the same way. But yes, this looks like it might work in this particular format. There is always a question as to who these kids are and how representative they are of other kids given the borderline results. What I would really like to know is the quality of their safer-sex intervention.

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