Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 183
  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Choose what? ("Right to choose" makes it sound like a choice between chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Minimally this should be an "informed choice".) The choice should really be one about choosing a vocation and a mate before even engaging in sexual intercourse. Those who choose parenthood as part of their vocation should accept that nature intends procreation as a consequence of such acts. Our society sort of takes a "better living through science" approach here which it seems has reduced our ability to remain disciplined people.

    EDIT: In other words:


    Your "right wing bible-thumpers" comment clearly shows an unhealthy prejudice and lack of tolerance on your part. Not all Judeau-Christians fit the mold you are stereotyping them into and many would find your "sorting criteria" of fellow citizens in a democracy to be both shallow and uninformed (on both patriotic and religious fronts).

    You really ought to dispense with the "we vs. them" attitude you have and accept that in a democracy opposing ideas, carefully considered, often lead to a better society as a whole.
    Hey, thanks for your advice. Based solely on your comments, I am a changed man. You have so convinced me. I really appreciate being educated by you, as well, about how I should live my life and what I should accept and not accept. No wonder you are opposed to choice. Making sense now.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by noxaj2 View Post
    Yeah to all the people that stood up for Tebow and said he doesn't suck your mouths must have been when or if you even seen the Senior Bowl Tebow played against only Seniors just imagine him in the pros yeah he'll make a great 3rd string FB.

    Easy there, Jethro. Don't worry, Tim will be just fine, although it's nice of you to express your concern about him. And you know what? He'll be probably drafted in the first round or early second and he will get a chance to show what he can do at the next level. Maybe you should consider trying the next level yourself, huh?

    I may disagree with his politics, but he is a committed person with a work ethic that I suspect you might not be familiar with...so stay tuned. Maybe you can learn something from him. And please....stay in school.
  3. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Hey, thanks for your advice. Based solely on your comments, I am a changed man. You have so convinced me. I really appreciate being educated by you, as well, about how I should live my life and what I should accept and not accept. No wonder you are opposed to choice. Making sense now.
    Wait.... was there a hint of sarcasm here?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. TexMexSol's Avatar
    Posts
    49 Posts
    Global Posts
    50 Global Posts
    #64  
    Can someone please get noxaj2 a period? Or may be twelve periods?? He may be a CMU fan, but it's obvious he never went!

    And no, I'm not a Tebow fan.

    Hook 'em Horns!!
    Last edited by TexMexSol; 02/03/2010 at 10:38 AM.
  5.    #65  
    Get off my thread Davidra.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by noxaj2 View Post
    Get off my thread Davidra.
    Now now. Let's not have a tantrum. When you grow up you'll be able to deal with criticism.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    The commercial isnt about Tim Tebow's football talent, but how he and his mother are grateful that they didnt listen to the doctor who told them to have an abortion when she was pregnant with Tim. Its a 'Look at the miracle that happened when you dont abort!"...
    So ALL aborted babies would end up being professional athletes?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Choose what? ("Right to choose" makes it sound like a choice between chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Minimally this should be an "informed choice".) The choice should really be one about choosing a vocation and a mate before even engaging in sexual intercourse. Those who choose parenthood as part of their vocation should accept that nature intends procreation as a consequence of such acts. Our society sort of takes a "better living through science" approach here which it seems has reduced our ability to remain disciplined people.
    Yes, indoctrinating kids with abstinence and moral values works all the time. Just look at Bristol Palin!!!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Yes, indoctrinating kids with abstinence and moral values works all the time. Just look at Bristol Palin!!!
    Kenanator, glad to see that you finally had the courage to respond to one of my posts! I don't bite!

    My comment was about society as a whole and not about kids. If you look at our society's divorce rate (over 50%) it's clear to me that most couples who enter marriage have fundamental problems with how they communicate with and treat their spouses (me included). I've come to my opinion about the purposes of marriage mostly by making observations based on my own mistakes and retrospection of those.

    "Indoctrinating kids" with anything is usually less effective than herding cats. It simply does not work. Kids learn by making observations of the values practiced by those around them and parents best teach by how they act themselves. Contraception seems like an easy solution to reducing abortions, but in practice it's a little like playing Russian Roulette (except for one bullet in 100 instead of one in six). It would be better for society to learn not to spin the chamber in the first place. I know I'm being more idealistic than pragmatic. One could argue that being initially pragmatic might be preferred but to neglect to get to and educate on the root causes would be equally irresponsible.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Kenanator, glad to see that you finally had the courage to respond to one of my posts! I don't bite!

    My comment was about society as a whole and not about kids. If you look at our society's divorce rate (over 50%) it's clear to me that most couples who enter marriage have fundamental problems with how they communicate with and treat their spouses (me included). I've come to my opinion about the purposes of marriage mostly by making observations based on my own mistakes and retrospection of those.

    "Indoctrinating kids" with anything is usually less effective than herding cats. It simply does not work. Kids learn by making observations of the values practiced by those around them and parents best teach by how they act themselves. Contraception seems like an easy solution to reducing abortions, but in practice it's a little like playing Russian Roulette (except for one bullet in 100 instead of one in six). It would be better for society to learn not to spin the chamber in the first place. I know I'm being more idealistic than pragmatic. One could argue that being initially pragmatic might be preferred but to neglect to get to and educate on the root causes would be equally irresponsible.
    Right. Sure. So those parents, who are such great role models for their children that they inculcate them into virginity pledges are the model you're looking for? Must be, since schools don't do that. Guess what? It fails miserably. Take your idealism and use it to adopt an unwanted child from someone who was convinced not to abort because of yahoos that didn't want them to learn about contraception. Know anybody like that?

    MONDAY, Dec. 29 (HealthDay News) -- Teens who take virginity pledges are just as likely to have sex as teens who don't make such promises -- and they're less likely to practice safe sex to prevent disease or pregnancy, a new study finds.

    "Previous studies found that pledgers were more likely to delay having sex than non-pledgers," said study author Janet E. Rosenbaum, a post doctoral fellow at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. "I used the same data as previous studies but a different statistical method."

    This method allowed Rosenbaum to compare those who had taken a virginity pledge with similar teens who hadn't taken a pledge but were likely to delay having sex, she said.

    "Virginity pledgers and similar non-pledgers don't differ in the rates of vaginal, oral or anal sex or any other sexual behavior," Rosenbaum said. "Strikingly, pledgers are less likely than similar non-pledgers to use condoms and also less likely to use any form of birth control."

    The findings were published in the January issue of the journal Pediatrics.
    Virginity Pledges? Right.
  11. #71  
    I'm not trying to argue one solution over another here. I clearly stated there are advantage to being pragmatic and I also stated that kids are not very effective at picking up anything we are trying to teach them. I'm saying that both "abstinence education" and "prevention education" both are not working. I'm simply saying that a little deeper and more reasoned thinking from everyone would improve things all around. At the current point in this problem, both sides (you included) should be thinking of "both/and" rather than "either/or".
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ... Take your idealism and use it to adopt an unwanted child from someone who was convinced not to abort because of yahoos that didn't want them to learn about contraception. Know anybody like that? ...
    It's really ironic to hear someone from the left preaching to me about "idealism". Perhaps you would rather I be more conservative and less idealistic?

    I have 3 children and I've decided that I don't have the financial resources to support a larger family than this. Surely you understand and respect my decision not to procreate beyond my means.

    EDIT: For me, no more children (naturally or by adoption). This does not mean there are not others looking to adopt infants. While I agree that killing the offspring before birth is a more convenient "do-over" for many, both you and I agree that not producing the baby in the first place is preferable (and neither of us are sure of the best way to reach that optimal goal).

    I know an adult who recently graduated from college, whose father wanted an abortion but the mother chose to have the child. I know someone who gave their child up for adoption.

    I think labels and stereotypes are a poor and ineffective substitute for balanced thinking.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/05/2010 at 10:21 AM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep...it's really great that she had a choice...right?
    Yes, the choice she made to ignore the doctor is the one the commercial is about. Stay on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Choose what? ("Right to choose" makes it sound like a choice between chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Minimally this should be an "informed choice".) The choice should really be one about choosing a vocation and a mate before even engaging in sexual intercourse. Those who choose parenthood as part of their vocation should accept that nature intends procreation as a consequence of such acts. Our society sort of takes a "better living through science" approach here which it seems has reduced our ability to remain disciplined people.

    EDIT: In other words:


    Your "right wing bible-thumpers" comment clearly shows an unhealthy prejudice and lack of tolerance on your part. Not all Judeau-Christians fit the mold you are stereotyping them into and many would find your "sorting criteria" of fellow citizens in a democracy to be both shallow and uninformed (on both patriotic and religious fronts).

    You really ought to dispense with the "we vs. them" attitude you have and accept that in a democracy opposing ideas, carefully considered, often lead to a better society as a whole.
    Great way to put it! There are many choices that led up to that one event. Dont ignore the fact that she made the choice to have a 5th child and chose to honor it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So ALL aborted babies would end up being professional athletes?
    I am sure you answered your own sarcastic question by looking in the mirror or in your own family. Or maybe you wouldve read the first line on my comment that you quoted.

    Keep in mind that this is NOT a religious debate, regardless of what Tim Tebow stands for or who paid for the commercial. Its simply a recommendation for all to consider the result of the choice to not abort. Stop making it about religion!
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post

    Keep in mind that this is NOT a religious debate, regardless of what Tim Tebow stands for or who paid for the commercial. Its simply a recommendation for all to consider the result of the choice to not abort. Stop making it about religion!
    You're kidding, right? Have you discussed your theory with Catholics? I would be glad to stop making it about religion when religions stop trumpeting about opposing abortion being a "family value".

    Yes, it was very sad when it was revealed that Bristol Palin was pregnant...especially since her mother fought long and hard against sex ed classes and stressed abstinence. But she, just like Tebow's mother, had a choice. And that's the way it should be.


    And are you so distrustful of human thought processes that you believe that any pregnant woman doesn't "consider the result of the choice to not abort"? Or is this some kind of slam at a particular group of women who choose abortion?

    Sure, it would be preferable if nobody got pregnant who didn't want to. Unfortunately, parent role modeling and abstinence vows don't work. Of course, there's always surreptitious birth control pills slipped into teenage girl's morning cereal. Maybe that's the way you would approach this? Dont you really think it makes much more sense to educate people about this, about their birth control options, and offer counseling, as opposed to threatening them with hellfire and damnation?
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You're kidding, right? Have you discussed your theory with Catholics? I would be glad to stop making it about religion when religions stop trumpeting about opposing abortion being a "family value".

    Yes, it was very sad when it was revealed that Bristol Palin was pregnant...especially since her mother fought long and hard against sex ed classes and stressed abstinence. But she, just like Tebow's mother, had a choice. And that's the way it should be.


    And are you so distrustful of human thought processes that you believe that any pregnant woman doesn't "consider the result of the choice to not abort"? Or is this some kind of slam at a particular group of women who choose abortion?

    Sure, it would be preferable if nobody got pregnant who didn't want to. Unfortunately, parent role modeling and abstinence vows don't work. Of course, there's always surreptitious birth control pills slipped into teenage girl's morning cereal. Maybe that's the way you would approach this? Dont you really think it makes much more sense to educate people about this, about their birth control options, and offer counseling, as opposed to threatening them with hellfire and damnation?
    What you are addressing are religious issues. I wont bite regarding that argument.

    But I will defend my previous posts...I did NOT say anything about the Palin family, or any particular group of women, or what works in raising children. I stated that the commercial that Tim Tebow and his mother is in is about Mrs Tebow's decision to IGNORE the doctor's recommendation to abort. STAY ON TOPIC! Let me know if you have an argument about the validity in what I stated, but dont try to pull ME into the point(s) that you are trying to make. I want nothing of it. I didnt even state what was right or wrong...geesh! I would love for you to pull the quote that I said stating that I 'Threaten people with Hellfire and Damnation". Stop putting words into my mouth.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    What you are addressing are religious issues. I wont bite regarding that argument.

    But I will defend my previous posts...I did NOT say anything about the Palin family, or any particular group of women, or what works in raising children. I stated that the commercial that Tim Tebow and his mother is in is about Mrs Tebow's decision to IGNORE the doctor's recommendation to abort. STAY ON TOPIC! Let me know if you have an argument about the validity in what I stated, but dont try to pull ME into the point(s) that you are trying to make. I want nothing of it. I didnt even state what was right or wrong...geesh! I would love for you to pull the quote that I said stating that I 'Threaten people with Hellfire and Damnation". Stop putting words into my mouth.
    OK..so given your response, you favor having women consider the options when they are pregnant (which is really groundbreaking), but we can also assume that you favor allowing women the right to choose, correct? As someone who lives in the same town and roots for Tim Tebow, I'm delighted his mother made the choice she did. But it was her choice, not the doctor's. She had a choice. You certainly must favor that, correct?
  17. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sure, it would be preferable if nobody got pregnant who didn't want to. Unfortunately, parent role modeling and abstinence vows don't work.
    Sorry, davidra, but that's an utterly ridiculous statement. Would you care to modify this to say that parental role modeling and abstinence vows don't ALWAYS work? But they are 100% effective when they're applied appropriately by the parents and the child. In that sense, wouldn't you agree that they are actually better than most other forms of birth control?

    I'm not opposed to birth control by any stretch of the imagination. But it drives me nuts when people run to the opposite extreme to say that abstinence education doesn't work. As if parents should just dump trying to be any kind of a role model at all because, hey, statistics show it doesn't work. Anyone with decent parents can see the flaw in your argument.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sorry, davidra, but that's an utterly ridiculous statement. Would you care to modify this to say that parental role modeling and abstinence vows don't ALWAYS work? But they are 100% effective when they're applied appropriately by the parents and the child. In that sense, wouldn't you agree that they are actually better than most other forms of birth control?

    I'm not opposed to birth control by any stretch of the imagination. But it drives me nuts when people run to the opposite extreme to say that abstinence education doesn't work. As if parents should just dump trying to be any kind of a role model at all because, hey, statistics show it doesn't work. Anyone with decent parents can see the flaw in your argument.
    Certainly wasn't 100% effective in the Palin family, but I suppose you are right, they must not have been applied appropriately. I do tend to jump to conclusions in applying group data to individuals (it's a professional thing). The more accurate way to say it is that based on population-based studies, abstinence pledges do not prevent sexual activity statistically. However, that is for the group studied, not for each individual person. But you know what would be even more effective? Combine parental education, role modeling, and significant education to prevent pregnancy. What I can interpret from the data is that abstinence vows don't work for many families, and my guess is that it is likely that adding education would be helpful, probably in a big way. Do you agree? Is that better?
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I am sure you answered your own sarcastic question by looking in the mirror or in your own family. Or maybe you wouldve read the first line on my comment that you quoted.
    His mother was given the CHOICE and that is all I wish for. I want women to have the freedom to make their own choices in this matter. It is not per my beliefs or your morals, it is up to the individual woman to make that decision for herself.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    She had a choice. You certainly must favor that, correct?
    Deciding the fate of an unwanted child is a choice that I wish noone ever had to make. How many women do you really think like the decision they are faced with? How many fathers pressure the mother into aborting the child simply because they did not forsee that parenting would be a potential outcome of their ""conquest"? Sorry for the strong and presumptuous language here, but the point I've been trying to make, in general, here is that we men need to stand up and be accountable for our actions. We can't just leave the "choice" to our women. So no, I don't favor a "choice" when it is made at the expense of an innocent child simply due to the selfishness of their parent(s). If you agree with me this far, we can move onto more nuanced situations where committed couples might decide to abort a child. (yes?/no?)

    And now for a bit of humor (just to lighten the discussion a bit):
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    As someone who lives in the same town and roots for Tim Tebow, I'm delighted his mother made the choice she did. But it was her choice, not the doctor's.
    In order to show a "balanced" view of both sides, maybe what we need next is a commercial with a grown, aborted zombie telling us about how they've been affected by their mother's choice. Maybe the creepy Palm Pre lady would be the right person for such a commercial.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions