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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    People are just hoping for something different--which is why the Democrats swept the last election. People aren't happy in every midterm, so they vote the other party back in.

    No one is doing lots of analyzing and thinking here--it's just back and forth--party to party. The regularity with which it occurs shows it has nothing to do with ideas.
    Wow, nice spin. I would love to have a glimpse into what your spin would have been had Coakley won. I suspect the voters would have been portrayed as being brighter and more in tune with national policy that you're portraying them now. I suspect it would have been portrayed as another indictment of Republican policies. But I guess we'll never know.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    No, Clemgrad, the man on the Fox News channel isn't talking directly to you.

    Can you tell me Obama's "real agenda," because it's a mystery to me.
    Well....sure.....I'll even quote Obama....."when you spread the wealth around, it is good for everyone." That is his real agenda. I applaud those that work (I know, evil word for many liberals) and are given the opportunity to succeed, but Obama's agenda is to take from those that have succeeded and to hand out to those that don't. Pretty simple.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Actually, Mass, being the state with the health care system closest to what the Democrats are trying to push, is in a unique place to speak for the nation. They spoke and it doesn't appear they like the "job" Democrats are trying to get done.
    Actually a good point on why you can't compare Mass to the rest of the nation. Mass already has a "solution" to Health Care as a State, of course they would object to most any Fed duplication.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    What democrats need to realize is the PEOPLE don't want this leftist liberal crap. You liberals are so intent on your agenda and now you are freaking out because the PEOPLE are figuring out Obama and his real agenda. Obama's lies can only last so long.
    Actually I think it would be more accurate to say the people want what President Obama campaigned on, not the crap being stuffed in by moderate cowardly democrats.

    Should just expand Medicare with a public buy-in option. BAM! You're done! You've covered millions at minimal costs and solidified medicare. Plus the infrastructure is there, no wait, Dems sweep 2010.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Oh no--that's all a lie--didn't you see, it was on Fox News.

    I blame government in a broad sense for this, but let's note something specific here in reference to McCain's proposed Legislation. "All of the Democrats voted against it."

    So, while there is plenty of blame to go around with Fannie and Freddie, let's not pretend that Democrats were some champions of Reform or Regulation--where it would have actually helped avert this major cause of the Recession.

    It's funny how propaganda can work--to turn around and benefit those who are at least as guilty as those being blamed. Congratulations on a Very successful lie campaign Dems--this one worked great.

    KAM
    I know your jesting. My point is it was talked and warned about. It's over and the FACTS are there. So there should be no more he said/she said. stuff. Once the facts are stated we need to move on. I am sure that I or many of you think and would love to go to State level or Washington and do good with the RIGHT values. Yet I am sure also that all of us would turn from the leadership and be just like the rest. The only way to make true change is to boot Rep's and Dem's. Then they will listen I hope. They all would love to maintain control and power. If they know that we will not reelect them if they do bad and shaft us, then they just may not. But it will take a MAJORITY of new elected. At least 2/3rds of the House and Senate.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    People are just hoping for something different--which is why the Democrats swept the last election. People aren't happy in every midterm, so they vote the other party back in.

    No one is doing lots of analyzing and thinking here--it's just back and forth--party to party. The regularity with which it occurs shows it has nothing to do with ideas.
    To some degree you are right but you can't over-generalize the way you are doing. Over-simplification will result in false conclusions which could be very detrimental to your party. I could have voted either way but I chose to vote for Brown in the primary because I did not like any of the candidates on the democratic ticket. I voted for Brown in the final election mostly because I felt the plan the democrats were devising had too many concessions that I could not live with, was not going to be sustainable beyond Obama's possible 2nd term, and was developed while ignoring 40% of the representatives of our nation's people.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Actually, Mass, being the state with the health care system closest to what the Democrats are trying to push, is in a unique place to speak for the nation. ...
    This was not my reason for voting it down. (EDIT: ie: because our plan is "bad".) You are over generalizing in the opposite direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    ... They spoke and it doesn't appear they like the "job" Democrats are trying to get done.
    Yes, I'd say we don't really like the job the democrats are doing here. I think the reasons I stated in my first paragraph are closer to the general reasons, but even then, the "too many concessions" part could be broken down into different sets of specific concessions for different people. Coakley's ill-preparedness in handling her campaign and her sense of "entitlement" are probably another big reasons why I and many others voted the way we did.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Actually I think it would be more accurate to say the people want what President Obama campaigned on, not the crap being stuffed in by moderate cowardly democrats.

    Should just expand Medicare with a public buy-in option. BAM! You're done! You've covered millions at minimal costs and solidified medicare. Plus the infrastructure is there, no wait, Dems sweep 2010.
    What? It could be as easy as you say but WAIT! The reports of late talk about all the fraud and yet you, as you say, many would like it put though. Maybe it's the mood of late that "the people" are tired of the spending, taxes, czars, list of decadents and general laws good for the people and different ones for the elected.
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Exactly. It's NOT about healthcare reform.

    Or else, the Massachusetts citizens would try to end their own healthcare system. I see no evidence of that.
    Actually, 48% of voters disapprove of the Dems health care reform plan as compared to 40% in favor. And, since Brown won 98% of those 48%, I'd say it had quite a bit to do with it.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Actually, 48% of voters disapprove of the Dems health care reform plan as compared to 40% in favor. And, since Brown won 98% of those 48%, I'd say it had quite a bit to do with it.
    If it had anything to do with Mass, it had to do with the lack of a strong public option keeping Dems at home last night.
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    If it had anything to do with Mass, it had to do with the lack of a strong public option keeping Dems at home last night.
    If it makes you sleep better at night
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Um...no.
    That's not my opinion, that's just plain math.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    ... Should just expand Medicare with a public buy-in option. BAM! You're done! You've covered millions at minimal costs and solidified medicare. Plus the infrastructure is there, no wait, Dems sweep 2010.
    Only problem here is that Medicare is currently "subsidized" by all other forms of insurance and payment. I guess medical providers would need to make at least what HMOs are currently paying. The Massachusetts plan has coverage criteria but allows you to choose existing/traditional plans to meet your coverage. The infrastructure is mostly in place for that too (aside from having more patients than the doctors could handle). My premiums have gone up, but that probably would have happened in any case.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The people have seen right through the made up controversies created by the right.

    The people want jobs and a better economy. Period.
    TRUE! Except if I may add it is both the right and left.
    Period.

    The issue is how. And we all know how including those of power. But they need to do the right things. And there is the problem. How do we get them to do that?
    Tax less. Including the rich. The rich create the jobs. The more jobs the more tax revenue. It will balance in the time. But no one wants a "benny" cut. And without cuts there is no tax relief. Now the talk is taxing banks. Are they kidding? Tax the rich more and now make the loans cost more. What the heck is that? All that will do is tighten the money flow and create higher unemployment thus creating less tax revenue.
    Look there is only so much money. So how do you create more taxes without raising taxes? You make it as easy as you can to allow more jobs to be created thus the money flows in the circle faster and the tax revenue goes up.
  14. #154  
    SUDOER - Question for YOU.

    Which was the bigger topic there. Healthcare or terrorist rights?
    It seems that I am hearing that your states people were more concerned about the terrorist rights issue. Is this true?
  15. #155  
    ROFL.....actually, Obama was quoted today as explaining how Brown won. It isn't the anger of the last year, on no, it couldn't be that, but rather the anger of the last 8 years. aka....Bush. Holy cow, he actually said that Brown won because people were angry at Bush! ROFL. I guess when leftist liberals can't really grasp the truth that the country doesn't want to be another France, they blame it on Bush. When all else fails, blame it on Bush. This guy Obama, I mean seriously, what a freakin joke. Is "freakin" allowed in here?
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  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So, you voted for Brown because you didn't like what the democrats were doing.
    I voted for Brown because I felt he showed more preparation and understanding of the job at hand he would need to perform than Coakley showed.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Fair--but let's not pretend Brown had any startling ideas that attracted you to fix all this. You basically voted against the incumbent party. In four years, you'll vote against the incumbent party again.
    No, I was not swayed in the presidential election to vote for ObamaChange.
    Yes, I voted in a way that would allow change in the senate special election.

    Before you bark at me for "voting republican" in spite of Bush, I see that as a generalization which would not apply in my case. I saw more leadership ability in McCain. To me, Obama was a "talker" (like Mitt Romney) and not a "doer". Leadership involves both leading and doing.

    As for the specifics regarding Brown, he seemed to me simply to be the person who would be a better senator and representative of all the people of Massachusetts.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    As for the hilarious "was developed while ignoring 40% of the representatives of our nation's people"...did you vote for the democrats when the Republicans caucused about the Patriot Act and the Medicare Part D Act and didn't allow Democrats in the room?

    If not, you're just being a hypocrite.
    I was not as careful in my politics back then (but go ahead and call me a hypocrite, since you would know that better than me).

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The problem wasn't that 60 senators were ignoring the republicans--it's the republicans wanted to crush health reform SOLELY for political purposes. They offered no ideas on health care reform because this isn't one of their pet issues (just like dems don't have much about illegal immigrants). Would you invite someone to help you renovate your home who is hellbent on breaking everything down?
    Obama could have shown more leadership here. Leaders figure out how to get people to step up to the plate when they might otherwise not want to.

    I don't flip from party to party based on a simple "change" agenda. It would be nice if we had more than two dominant parties in American politics. I agree with you that many independents do flip in the way you say. I'm just saying that I don't fit the mental model you currently have in your head.

    I think most Americans (of all political persuasions) had higher expectations of Obama than past presidents. Hopefully Obama will learn to adapt and lead now that we've rearranged the players in his army.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Actually I think it would be more accurate to say the people want what President Obama campaigned on, not the crap being stuffed in by moderate cowardly democrats.
    ROFL.....thanks.....what a great laugh. Needed that. Yes, daThomas, you nailed it....the American People really want a more liberal agenda. ROFL Whew. That would explain why a Republican was elected in Mass because, I mean, voting for a Republican would more than likely get Obama back on track with what "Obama campaigned on". Good one....almost as good as Obama blaming the Brown win on the anger of 8 years of Bush. Classic!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    SUDOER - Question for YOU.

    Which was the bigger topic there. Healthcare or terrorist rights?
    It seems that I am hearing that your states people were more concerned about the terrorist rights issue. Is this true?
    While I'm concerned about preventing terrorism, I don't think terrorists think much about their rights before committing their acts of horror, so I'm inclined to place healthcare reform as a higher priority. Congress really should finish the work they started as "the work will grow stale" if this is put on a back burner.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    While I'm concerned about preventing terrorism, I don't think terrorists think much about their rights before committing their acts of horror, so I'm inclined to place healthcare reform as a higher priority. Congress really should finish the work they started as "the work will grow stale" if this is put on a back burner.
    If I may restate. When talking about Terrorist rights I'm saying the legal rights in court that we do or do not give them. Like the NY city cases. IMO terrorist have no rights in US civilian court. It is a military court issue.
    Your funny. I too do not thing that a terrorist thinks about their rights before committing an act. lol
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    If I may restate. When talking about Terrorist rights I'm saying the legal rights in court that we do or do not give them. Like the NY city cases. IMO terrorist have no rights in US civilian court. It is a military court issue.
    This is what I had assumed you were meaning, Just wanted to be sure.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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