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  1. #21  
    This is why we need the Fair Tax. Before you start to bash the Fair Tax, read about it. There is a lot of misinformation about it and the democrats hate the idea (though many Republicans in office aren't rallying around it either) because it takes power away from them.

    The idea behind the Fair Tax is not necessarily paying less in taxes, but rather getting tax from EVERYONE. Think about all the money that folks earn through drugs, or prostitution, or side jobs (legal jobs, just not reported) that results in $0 tax coming into the government. The Fair Tax taxes individuals at the time they spend it. This results in less money being spent on tax avoidance. Oh, and for those concerned with folks who don't earn much and have to pay higher taxes when they buy products, well, they get a monthly check that offsets the taxes that someone on say a $30,000 income would end up paying. So for them, it's a wash....no taxes! Imagine getting a paycheck and having no Federal or FICA subtracted from it (can't help the state tax, sorry).

    The one thing that many opponents of this plan shout about is no corporate taxes....yup....that's right....corporations don't pay tax under this plan. But think about it, corporations really don't pay taxes now, they just charge more for a product or service (passing the tax along to consumers). If they don't have this expense, they can lower the cost of the product or service. Skeptical they would? All it would take is one company to drop their cost (competition!) and before you know it, the others would follow for that particular product or service.

    Anyway, read the book by Neal Boortz, The FairTax Book: Amazon.com: The FairTax Book (9780060875411): Neal Boortz, John Linder: Books Don't trash the concept before you read how it works....then....pass it along to a friend....
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  2. #22  
    I've been a fan of a fair tax. It would also force the government to create a productive economy, because for them to be paid, we have to have money to spend. It will never happen though.

    You guys that repeat fox soundbytes about obama destroying capatilism are insane. It's more like he's trying to save capatilism, please turn off rush and hannity and begin to think, whatever happened to thinking? The republicans created this mess, we were bankrupt when bush left office. Hold on, I'm sorry, I forgot republicans have never taken responsibilty for anything. It's also funny, how after 8 years, really longer, they have had nothing but wrong answers, and now they know whats best for us. What a joke.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    This is why we need the Fair Tax. Before you start to bash the Fair Tax, read about it. There is a lot of misinformation about it and the democrats hate the idea (though many Republicans in office aren't rallying around it either) because it takes power away from them.

    The idea behind the Fair Tax is not necessarily paying less in taxes, but rather getting tax from EVERYONE. Think about all the money that folks earn through drugs, or prostitution, or side jobs (legal jobs, just not reported) that results in $0 tax coming into the government. The Fair Tax taxes individuals at the time they spend it. This results in less money being spent on tax avoidance. Oh, and for those concerned with folks who don't earn much and have to pay higher taxes when they buy products, well, they get a monthly check that offsets the taxes that someone on say a $30,000 income would end up paying. So for them, it's a wash....no taxes! Imagine getting a paycheck and having no Federal or FICA subtracted from it (can't help the state tax, sorry).

    The one thing that many opponents of this plan shout about is no corporate taxes....yup....that's right....corporations don't pay tax under this plan. But think about it, corporations really don't pay taxes now, they just charge more for a product or service (passing the tax along to consumers). If they don't have this expense, they can lower the cost of the product or service. Skeptical they would? All it would take is one company to drop their cost (competition!) and before you know it, the others would follow for that particular product or service.

    Anyway, read the book by Neal Boortz, The FairTax Book: Amazon.com: The FairTax Book (9780060875411): Neal Boortz, John Linder: Books Don't trash the concept before you read how it works....then....pass it along to a friend....
    Maybe obama will get that passed in his next term in office.

    I disagree with your corp reasoning... the tax expense would be passed right along someplace else. Like not being able to deduct corporate spending. At the end, corps would be in the same situation. And if startups can't deduct spending (offset for future years), you might actually hurt them... but I'm sure there is a plan for that... lol
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    You guys that repeat fox soundbytes about obama destroying capatilism are insane. It's more like he's trying to save capatilism, please turn off rush and hannity and begin to think, whatever happened to thinking? The republicans created this mess, we were bankrupt when bush left office. Hold on, I'm sorry, I forgot republicans have never taken responsibilty for anything. It's also funny, how after 8 years, really longer, they have had nothing but wrong answers, and now they know whats best for us. What a joke.
    Well....here's where you aren't exactly correct. I am not aware of many issues getting to Prez Bush's desk for signature that were so one sided (that is, all Republicans voting for it, and all dem's against it). In other words, the Congress seemed to work more together (Republicans and democrats) to screw things up and yes, Prez Bush then signed the bills. I was very disappointed in Prez Bush towards the end of his Presidency and that is something that democrats don't like to see, that many Republicans were disappointed with many things he did. So to blame Republicans for all the issues during the Bush 8 years is just crazy, as the democrats were right there participating. But I will agree, the Republicans were not acting very conservative like.

    I personally just feel the Government has gotten way to big, and to say Obama is not leading this charge is just not being honest. Obama and most democrats simply believe that when there is an issue that needs fixing, the government is the answer. This forces larger government, more debt, higher taxes, and how you expect this to help capitalism is beyond me. I don't have the percentage in front of me, but a HUGE percent of Americans pay $0 in federal taxes. This means that folks earning more, pay more in taxes, which means they have less to invest back into their companies, less to hiring, and less to put back to work in the economy.
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  5. #25  
    I dont agree with everyting the dems do, at all. But considering that republicans had majority, even while clinton was in office should speak for itself. Also, bush pushed more executive orders and expanded government more than anyone else has. I am in texas, and when he was our governer, he didnt do much then either. I was disappoined with bush, before his presidency.

    I also feel goverment has gotten to big, but there is no changing it. It's been growing since the dawn of civilization, and as the world continues to grow, it will also.

    The fact of the matter is, many supposed news sources push this idea of goverment take over and socialism, which just isn't correct. I never truely realized how stupid so many americans were until recently. When I look at what is gong on, I have to wonder, what if they didn't intervene? What if your mortgage company didnt have the funds for the house you've been paying for?, and your evicted. I dont agree with how the money was given away, but that was, again, started under bush. When I hear government take over of the banks and so forth, it's ridiculous. There has been no takeover, and the government is attempting to and has been recouping alot of hte money back from them. What they are doing, by bailing out the banks and auto industry is attempting to keep large private businesses open, therefore trying to save capatilism. Putting a bandaid on it until it heals is all they are doing.

    Also, where were all these socialism cryers, when bush bailed out the airlines? Its the same thing. Do I agree with it? No. But it is what it is. The same people that cry socialism wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they lost social security or medicare or unemployment benefits, which, ya know, is like socialism.

    I honestly believe the dems have bent over backwards trying to appease the right. And it's been proven the right has absolutely no intentions on working with the left, its proven. So that leaves us, the people they are all working for, in one hell of a mess. I am very disappointed in the weakness the left has shown, and in obamas strict political correctness. I absolutely loathed the Bush adminstration, but they had the balls to do what they wanted to do, like it or not, and I just wish the current administration would show the same spine.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Thank Bush for that...

    Oh, Bush had nothing to do with it... all on Obama... Obama is the President.

    Obama is trying to get us out of this mess... as Bush was before he left office.

    Getting business involved and working out new plans to get business hiring again is a step in the right direction... a little late, IMO (last month), but at least business is on the radar... and obama seems to understand the importance.

    Please don't come in with the faulty notion of anyone attempting to save the world or ride in a magic carpet. Obama has a good team.

    Comments like yours is what keeps the republicans stating they won't sign off on anything... heck, who cares if nothing gets done... we might be able to win back one house... they nothing will get done for sure. But who cares? Maybe the rep will control both houses and presidency again if obama can accomplish nothing.

    I will always vote, but sometimes I can't fault people who don't... or people who don't follow the circus we call politics. At times it is a major joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Keep in mind; The little American is hurting because of the last Presidency.
    They destroyed the working American.
    Now where is this country supposed to get it's taxes? I know people hate that word, but that's how those in charge support themselves.

    Oh No,
    Don't tax the big guy, he'll just take it out of the little guy.
    First, Dont make assumptions about me, I am the little guy.. I own a small construction business and Im struggling just like everybody else except the extreme left.

    You guys immediately jump on Bush instead of blaming the ones who are truly responsible, The likes of pelosi and reid who forced Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as well as others to make dangerous loans to people who should NEVER have been given a loan for a house out of some screwed up sensibility that everybody deserves a house....Thats B/S!

    If you cant put 20% down then you should be ineligible!!

    As far as Bush being President... He was unable to do much of anything his last 2 yrs in office due to Democrats doing what you lefties are accusing the Republicans of doing...S a n d b a g g i n g the current Administration! The Democrats are just as culpable Republicans.

    The final year of his Presidency Falls entirely on Obama, as he was a shoe in due to the liberal media making this Criminal look like a saint. (Saint crack head).. Oh Sorry I meant to say Messiah!
    Bill Clinton was Slammed for smoking a Joint in College while in his autobiography Obama admits to hard core cocaine usage for years, and states the only reason he didnt use heroin is because he didnt like the dealer(not because its illegal or stupid).

    you guys should really think about this guy before you spout off about Bush, Maybe he wasnt very well spoken but at least he spoke from the heart not from 15 teleprompters.

    As for where we will get our taxes, Maybe your Messiah should stop forcing american companies to go elsewhere by increasing corporate taxes and lower the corporate tax rate to an acceptable level many would come home and bring jobs w/ them. If I thought my business would do well overseas I would have gone the day he was elected.
    Also making loans to american companies was a good idea, except to say when I take out a loan it doesnt give the bank the right to tell me who i can hire and fire nor does it give them the right to tell me how much I can pay them.

    Throughout the years this country, weather Democrat or Republican leadership, Has always been able to meet in the middle. This Administration is so far left we may never get back to the middle again.

    The guy is a fake,criminal,drug abuser,and a puppet for the Democrats!
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  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2sslow View Post
    lower the corporate tax rate to an acceptable level many would come home and bring jobs w/ them.
    That will never happen. Those companies were given the breaks to take their biz oversees. It was such a sweet opportunity, that they didn't mind the huge cost of moving and setting up shop over there.

    No, they won't be coming back.
    The cost to make the move back here is just too much.
    Add in the cost of cheap labor over there.
    No, they are not coming home.
    Just call me Berd.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    That will never happen. Those companies were given the breaks to take their biz oversees. It was such a sweet opportunity, that they didn't mind the huge cost of moving and setting up shop over there.

    No, they won't be coming back.
    The cost to make the move back here is just too much.
    Add in the cost of cheap labor over there.
    No, they are not coming home.
    If we would lower our tax rate to 12.5 like Ireland did they most certainly would come home!

    Raising taxes does not work, Its been proven time and time again! lowering taxes stimulates the economy 10 fold. I wont build my business beyond 3 employees because of the additional taxes i will have to pay!
    I had 15 employees at one time and quite frankly I make more money w/2 than I did w/ 15 due to the corporate tax structure!

    When Reagan was President the tax rate was 1/3 of what it is now and we all prospered. I think we need to look back to when things actually worked to our advantage not try to give everybody free health care by raping me!

    If you are not willing to work hard and be a productive member of society you are not deserving of my help. Now before you call me heartless I'm talking about those who WONT help themselves not those who cant!

    I dont Hate Obama because I want too I sincerely hope(no pun intended) that I am wrong, I would love to come in here and say I'm sorry for the accusations I have made. But I dont see that spending 10s of trillions of dollars we had to borrow from our most dangerous neighbors to be very prudent.
    That would be the equivilent of me borrowing 10 million from the local loanshark. Not very bright!

    BTW I do appreciate your opinions as well, I just hope we can keep this thread civil, These threads can get out of control fast. lol

    Everybody deserves to have an opinion
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  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #29  
    Hello Everyone,

    I'm not entirely clear on what is going on here, but let's point out a few facts. TARP was proposed under the Bush Administration, and approved by Congress--including Senator Barack Obama, and subsequently, has been overseen by his Administration.

    Let me be clear--I think this TARP business is a load of nonsense--thought so when Bush was President, think so when Obama is President.

    This Tax is not about repaying TARP--its simply a tax, using TARP as an excuse, to pass billions in taxes, and ignoring the fact that the American Citizen will pay the price.

    What should happen is that the Government should get repaid for TARP funds, and return that (fake) money to where it came from (a printing press...electronic, not even real) in order to stave off the devaluation of our currency. Instead, a while back the Obama administration was treating it as found money and suggesting it be used for other things.

    End that "program" and stop playing these games. Stop this "too big too fail" idiocy that has CREATED many of these problems. Stop the Crony Capitalism train.

    Of course, it wouldn't hurt to make Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pay back the American Taxpayer, but of course they are essentially broke, so that won't happen, and there are way too many government-fingers in that pie.

    Bottom line--the American Taxpayer will be shouldering the burden of any tax ultimately. That will continue to put a drag on our economy, and hurt everyone from top to bottom.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2sslow View Post
    As for where we will get our taxes, Maybe your Messiah should stop forcing american companies to go elsewhere by increasing corporate taxes and lower the corporate tax rate to an acceptable level many would come home and bring jobs w/ them. If I thought my business would do well overseas I would have gone the day he was elected.
    Well, the fact is, that our nonsensical "corporate tax" has long been a problem--not when President Obama took office. Our government has long fooled the people into thinking that Taxing business somehow benefits them--it doesn't. That is passed directly onto the American Citizen.

    When someone complains about their job going overseas--look to the morons who support high corporate taxes--that is, most of our Government, other than the few people who actually stand for Economic freedom.

    President Obama isn't guilty for starting that--he's merely guilty for continuing it. I think the biggest damage the current administration is responsible for is creating MORE uncertainty in the midst of very uncertain times.

    Business can deal with problems--but it cannot deal with uncertainty very well, and that's where we are at. I think this unhealthy atmosphere is going to be one of the most significant reasons our economy fails to recover, or recovers at a slow pace.

    All this talk about stimulus, and any other manipulation of the economy--almost all damaging. You want to get the economy going? Get the government out of the way--let Private Industry loose and they WILL grow this economy.

    KAM
  11.    #31  
    Thanks KAM,

    It's always nice to read well thought out, reasonable arguments.
    I sincerely was confused.
    There's a chance someone will come along and try to dismantel the points you make here. But for me, I find this a satisfying answer.

    Thanks again,
    -Berd
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Thanks KAM,

    It's always nice to read well thought out, reasonable arguments.
    I sincerely was confused.
    There's a chance someone will come along and try to dismantel the points you make here. But for me, I find this a satisfying answer.

    Thanks again,
    -Berd
    Hello,

    Well, as I said--I'm not an expert, but its clear that this isn't simply a matter of recovering the money that was handed out in TARP. Rather, it seems that this is taking advantage of people's ill will towards the banks (not really understanding exactly what happened) and using it to justify raising taxes.

    I wish President Obama was dedicated to getting the taxpayers' massive burden relieved, not shifted to us in a different way. ALL of these bailout recipients need to pay it back, and it needs to go back to where it came from, and NOT be turned into a slush fund. If we do this, we might stave off some of the negative effects of printing and spending money we don't really have.

    I think we should do the same with the non-stimulus money--simply don't spend it (we don't really have it anyway), and help shore up the dollar--that's a much bigger long term problem I think. If we strengthen the dollar, that will aid our recovery. Again--UNCERTAINTY is doom. Uncertainty in the dollar is massive doom.

    KAM
  13. #33  
    @2slow, you should google the bush drug tapes, he admits cocaine use also. Also him and cheney, were convicted criminals before taking office.

    Another thing, the housing crunch. While there was alot of overextended loans being given out, most people seem to forget that most of these people could afford their homes. The lack of any government oversight, is what failed. I know people that bought houses, and could afford 800.00 a month. Then in the rush of greed by these companies, interest rates started becoming ridiculous. The 800.00 note, quickly morphed into 1100.00$ notes. What do you do? You eventually walk out of your house. It was the banks and lenders greed that caused alot of this mess, and allowment by the government for them to do so, but we end up toting the note for them. It sucks.
  14. #34  
    @ KAM

    Bush inherited a record surplus of 128 billion$,from clinton.obama inherited 1.2 trillion deficit.("The federal deficit is the difference between what the government spends and what it takes in from taxes and other revenue sources. The government must borrow money to make up the difference.")our actual debt owed is hard to find,suppossedly somewhere around 50 trillion.

    I dont think we will be shoring up our dollar anytime soon. With nothing backing our current dollar, other than notes of debt, we are in really bad shape. Factor in that we create nothing anymore in the U.S., and that makes it that much worse. When we've become a service outlet for the rest of the worlds products, it makes me think we have a very long road ahead of us. But, who knows.
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    @ KAM

    Bush inherited a record surplus of 128 billion$,from clinton.obama inherited 1.2 trillion deficit.("The federal deficit is the difference between what the government spends and what it takes in from taxes and other revenue sources. The government must borrow money to make up the difference.")our actual debt owed is hard to find,suppossedly somewhere around 50 trillion.
    Are you aware that Senator Obama voted for the TARP programs that was about 700 billion of that 1.2 Trillion? Are you aware that he has increased that Deficit more than any other president--in just one year?

    You won't find me cheering President Bush's reckless spending, nor the even worse spending of Obama. In short--President Obama can't cry about what he "inherited" while he is eagerly making it worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    I dont think we will be shoring up our dollar anytime soon. With nothing backing our current dollar, other than notes of debt, we are in really bad shape. Factor in that we create nothing anymore in the U.S., and that makes it that much worse. When we've become a service outlet for the rest of the worlds products, it makes me think we have a very long road ahead of us. But, who knows.
    Well, the weakness of the dollar is partially due to borrowing or printing money--which again has rapidly accelerated under the Obama Administration (which was already bad before). Reversing this will have the tendency to help the dollar. As it stands--we are now making it worse.

    We create many things in the United States still, but you are correct that it is shifting the opposite way. What we need to do to change that course is what? REVERSE what we are doing now--stop with the economy ruining corporate tax that sends industries overseas is one good way. I suggest slashing the Corporate Tax by 50% immediately. It just passes through to the American Taxpayer anyway. That would be a good first step.

    I would agree we have a long road ahead of us, to reverse the economic damage that has been done to this country. That road however, didn't start in 2001--it started long before that, and undoing the Government orchestrated damage to the economy is a very important component of that. Now, of course, there are non-government related issues too, so we aren't likely to end up where we were (in terms of manufacturing), but we can certainly be more competitive on all fronts.

    KAM
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Hmmm...no regulations and they'll grow the economy? Sounds vaguely familiar...
    It should--it works almost every time its tried.

    KAM
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Of course the American taxpayer shoulders the burden--whic is exactly what happened when Wall Street was on the brink.
    The individual taxpayer is the ultimate source of all taxes, but I'm not sure what your statement is supposed to mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Get great returns? Wall Street gets to keep them.

    Losing on risky investments? The Tax payer has to pay to keep the economy moving. Letting these banks fail could ruin the economy.
    What do you mean "wall street" gets to keep them. Who's wall street? If a company has great profit, their shareholders profit.

    Losing...no--only if you follow the Crony capitialism playbook does the taxpayer lose. Only with this "too big to fail" nonsense.

    First--all banks wouldn't fail--only the ones doing these things you supposedly hate. So, YOUR apparently (fear based) plan--bailouts is what is causing the harm to the American taxpayer. And of course what's more important to remember--this situation only got to where it was due to government manipulation--primarily via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--two supposedly highly regulated organizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Conservatives don't want regulations on these banks so they can grow and grow and become more invincible. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
    No, they don't want regulations, because it is just a means for government to burden the private sector.

    KAM
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Thank Bush for that...

    Oh, Bush had nothing to do with it... all on Obama... Obama is the President.

    Obama is trying to get us out of this mess... as Bush was before he left office.

    Getting business involved and working out new plans to get business hiring again is a step in the right direction... a little late, IMO (last month), but at least business is on the radar... and obama seems to understand the importance.

    Please don't come in with the faulty notion of anyone attempting to save the world or ride in a magic carpet. Obama has a good team.

    Comments like yours is what keeps the republicans stating they won't sign off on anything... heck, who cares if nothing gets done... we might be able to win back one house... they nothing will get done for sure. But who cares? Maybe the rep will control both houses and presidency again if obama can accomplish nothing.

    I will always vote, but sometimes I can't fault people who don't... or people who don't follow the circus we call politics. At times it is a major joke.
    +1 i love how ppl quickly forget Bushes doing
  19. #39  
    Democrats vs Republicans is irrelevant they're both the on the same team when it comes down to it. See my signature and check out the show.
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  20.    #40  
    You do have to wonder though.
    Throw money, with so little thought, no stipulations whatsoever to big business.
    But now, when it comes to asking for that money back, it's all of a sudden going to hurt the little guy. Were they ever concerned about the little guy?
    I say no.

    Here Big Business.
    Here is lots of money off the little americans back.

    Here little American - you can't have any of it back. You can't even have healthcare. That's only for the wealthy. Yes, we threw money out the window - we could afford that. But healthcare? Nope. It will be too much of a financial burden.

    Aren't you guys starting to even wonder just a little?

    What makes you think these Big Guys care one bit about the little guy?
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