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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Medicare is not Government as a whole. Medicare is a TOOL of government which has been used by various unethical politicians as a fear-mongering club to keep seniors scared to death. I wouldn't call that ethical.


    We are talking about people's lives, and it makes me sick to see the government WASTING money and repeating the same sorts of mistakes that created this mess(along with insurance companies), where people can't afford a checkup, let alone cancer treatment, because of their Indirect payer schemes and destruction of the Free Market. And I've got people preaching at me how unethical I am? Outrageous. I and every other innocent citizen--rich and poor are FORCED onto the backwards, destructive playing field that the Government, Insurance companies and medical industry have created and somehow I'M at fault?

    No, I'm just one person (amongst many) who are sick and tired of being victimized and tossed around like rag dolls by people who think they have a right to control the lives of others. We are trapped in this web designed to benefit politicians, insurance companies, and yes--even unethical doctors and hospitals. The difference is that I realize they are all to blame, whereas you want to hand the whole thing to one of the wrong-doers.

    I re-quoted this for a specific point. People's lives depend on many things--food, shelter, power, healthcare. So, what's next? Should government take over all of those things too? Should we simply return to Feudalism where our lords control everything for us? Your "ethics" are that of unlimited government power, and if you have forgotten history, let me remind you--that NEVER leads to good things. Only rarely have the people of this world successfully thrown off the burden of such authoritarianism, and in the name of "what's best for us" you are eagerly hastening the return of that.

    KAM
    Medicare is a program for the elderly that has done more good, and saved more lives, than you can possibly imagine. Calling it a tool of the government used for fear tactics is, indeed, unethical. That's not what it was designed to be, and that's not what it is. Just like everything else, it can be improved, but your statement is absurd.

    Yes, the government participated in the disaster that is the current system....but the other two hold most of the blame. Insurance companies and the "medical industry" were in the process of destroying any direct payment before Medicare became nearly as large as it is. Fee for service, which thankfully is almost dead, provided very poor services for those who really needed them. There was a limit on lifetime coverage, the care was totally unmanaged so anyone could go see any doctor as much as they wanted with no oversight, abuse was rampant, with some doctors seeing patients every day, and costs skyrocketed. That's why Nixon passed the HMO act; employers could no longer afford paying for fee-for-service insurance. It was a business deal; you know, the people you love so much. It sucked, in other words. What is responsible for your wailing about being unable to afford checkups or being forced into indirect payment? One word: greed. Technology added a lot to it, but greed, primarily by insurance companies and doctors, and partially by hospitals, are responsible. It's time to do away with that entire code of ethics.

    Yes, we strongly disagree. People in this country rarely die of starvation, or lack of shelter, or lack of power. They die every day in front of me because of inadequate insurance. If you want to say they are the same thing and should be treated the same way, then I'll say the same thing I said before. It says a lot about you.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Medicare is a program for the elderly that has done more good, and saved more lives, than you can possibly imagine. Calling it a tool of the government used for fear tactics is, indeed, unethical. That's not what it was designed to be, and that's not what it is. Just like everything else, it can be improved, but your statement is absurd.

    Yes, the government participated in the disaster that is the current system....but the other two hold most of the blame. Insurance companies and the "medical industry" were in the process of destroying any direct payment before Medicare became nearly as large as it is. Fee for service, which thankfully is almost dead, provided very poor services for those who really needed them. There was a limit on lifetime coverage, the care was totally unmanaged so anyone could go see any doctor as much as they wanted with no oversight, abuse was rampant, with some doctors seeing patients every day, and costs skyrocketed. That's why Nixon passed the HMO act; employers could no longer afford paying for fee-for-service insurance. It was a business deal; you know, the people you love so much. It sucked, in other words. What is responsible for your wailing about being unable to afford checkups or being forced into indirect payment? One word: greed. Technology added a lot to it, but greed, primarily by insurance companies and doctors, and partially by hospitals, are responsible. It's time to do away with that entire code of ethics.

    Yes, we strongly disagree. People in this country rarely die of starvation, or lack of shelter, or lack of power. They die every day in front of me because of inadequate insurance. If you want to say they are the same thing and should be treated the same way, then I'll say the same thing I said before. It says a lot about you.
    I'm a little sick and tired of your accusations. I've done my best to treat you and what you say you want with respect, but all I get out of you are attacks on my ethics--simply because I disagree with the "Solutions" that you think will work.

    What is happening now is a fraud. You've placed your trust in a bunch of political hacks who don't give a damn about helping anyone. Helping people is just a propaganda tool, and you are too blind to be able to realize it.

    This fraud of a "reform" bill isn't going to lower costs, or improve care--its going to just continue allowing government to make a mess of things. You complain about these horrible insurance profits, but are perfectly willing to expand government programs that BY THEIR OWN DEFINITION include massive amounts of waste. I guess its ok to burn money for fraud and lining the pockets of politicians, but its a crime against humanity if an insurance company profits. What's the difference in the end? Its ok for scum-bag A to gain, but not Scum-bag B? Wow, that's progress.

    This was never about helping people or lowering costs--its politics, pure and simple. You keep that in mind when billions more dollars that COULD have been used to actually help someone are being burned by bloated, fraudulent government systems.

    You say that Medicare has saved more lives than I could know? Really--how many were NOT saved, because of GOVERNMENT waste? It isn't about doing nothing--its about doing the BEST thing, and this "Reform" sure as hell isn't the "best thing." Why? Because this is and always has been a political game--designed for political purposes and without giving a damn about helping anyone.

    Congratulations, this will be going through. Enjoy yet another government Sham.

    KAM
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Yet the Republicans haven't provided any viable alternative. Every suggestion they have always includes reducing taxes--something that analyses show will only help about 2% of the uninsured.
    Well, I don't particularly like the path that they've chosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    12 years of Republicans being in power in Congress, and all we got was the $1trillion Medicare Modernization Act which incentivized drug companies to raise prices because Medicare couldn't negotiate with them. It also paid private Medicare Advantage Insurance companies 16% more than it paid for regular medicare patients--bloating Medicare and our debt even more.
    What's funny is that you criticize that train wreck, while ignoring the backroom deals cut in regards to this "reform" mess. The American public will continue to be the loser.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And that reform was the "best thing"?? And, you want to believe that Republicans have a better answer? Who do you think you're kidding?
    No, I didn't say that. No one had even suggested what I find to be a good answer, because they are dedicated to politics, not solutions. I realize this, you do not. You seem to think that just because your preferred politicians control this, that it will turn out well. I know better.

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    KAM, I understand that you dislike central government. That's an acceptable stance to take. When you claim "yet another government sham," I think you believe that EVERYTHING the government does is a sham.
    Well, I do talk about that a lot, but no, I do not actually believe that Government is universally a sham, nor that government is always wrong. I think that THIS is a Sham however.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Has the private world really given Americans a viable alternative for healthcare?
    Well, to understand that this is not possible, you would have to acknowledge that government has their claws into healthcare already--and is part of the problem. The solution is to remove government from it to the maximum extent possible, which would THEN allow for other solutions to occur.

    That's what you and supporters of this don't seem to understand. The Government IS the problem. Expanding their role BLOCKS the potential at actually finding solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Beliefs like "People who cannot pay for healthcare should not get it;" "Let's change this entire sector so that the private world can try again;" and "There actually isn't a healthcare problem in America today so let's do nothing," aren't acceptable solutions to me and most Americans.
    And I've not suggested that. I'm in no position to push any of my ideas. That doesn't mean I'm going to lie to myself and pretend that more of the same is going to fix things.

    Things cannot happen overnight, but we need to start moving in the right direction, and I think many of those ideas have been suggesting exactly that.

    For example--we cannot simply pull the Medicare/medicaid rug out from under everyone--but I want to move to a point where it isn't necessary. I want to use the money we spend there more wisely, instead of expanding a system that is already heading to financial disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The central government only steps in when the private world has failed. Decades of private control have led to where we are now. The central government feels, that to survive as a country financially, it had to do something drastic. (considering the federal government pays for 60% of overall healthcare costs--Medicare, Medicaid, VA, community health centers, etc.)

    It did.
    That's simply not true. We have not had Decades of "private Control" We have had decades of GOVERNMENT MEDDLING under which prices have skyrocketed. You aren't even properly identifying the problem, which makes it impossible to reach a solution.

    Private Insurance didn't collapse at some point requiring government to take over. Government helped CREATE the insurance system we have, and is an active participant in Medicare and Medicaid (and other various programs). No, medical care has been in the hands of government (for quite some time--claiming yourself they pay for 60% of costs). In other words--they are already the single largest payer and what is the result? Skyrocketing prices. Your answer is simply--let's give them 70%, 80%...more perhaps. What makes you think anything else will change?

    No, government has been HIGHLY involved in healthcare, and they have led us here. Blame insurance companies if you want (and they have plenty to take), but pretending that the government is some positive influence is crazy in my view.

    All this Healthcare "reform" bill is doing is insuring that we will not be able to even pursue actual reforms. It may not have been likely before--because ACTUAL reform is needed, but now, we are assured we will never be able to fix the mess that Government has worked so hard to provide.

    Let me state this again, so it is very clear. Government has been involved at every turn for the better part of 100 years, PRESIDING over skyrocketing costs and NOT fixing the problem. Do you get that--government ALREADY holds most of the power and influence (60% by your count) and they have FAILED.

    My preference is to stop the damage they do, and extricate ourselves from the mess they've led us into. Your preference is to keep repeating the same mistakes.

    KAM
  5.    #65  
    I'm a little confused. If this Health Care Reform is such an anti-capitalist move, why are health insurance company stocks so high?
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'm a little confused. If this Health Care Reform is such an anti-capitalist move, why are health insurance company stocks so high?
    Look up Crony Capitalism--its becoming a regular practice of this Administration. Just because they rail against Insurance companies doesn't mean they are being honest about it. They are perfectly willing to allow insurance companies to rob the American people as long as Government expands.

    The Insurance company vs the Government business is a joke. Its all against the average Citizen--they are the ones who will lose.

    Congratulations.

    KAM
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Look up Crony Capitalism--its becoming a regular practice of this Administration. Just because they rail against Insurance companies doesn't mean they are being honest about it. They are perfectly willing to allow insurance companies to rob the American people as long as Government expands.

    The Insurance company vs the Government business is a joke. Its all against the average Citizen--they are the ones who will lose.

    Congratulations.

    KAM
    Honestly, constantly posting that the average joe is screwed no matter what is less than contributory to the discussion.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Honestly, constantly posting that the average joe is screwed no matter what is less than contributory to the discussion.
    Is that an official statement as a moderator or just your opinion.

    I know, I know--I should just happily accept a massive government intrusion into my life--what's just one more bit of liberty destroyed right? We voted for this "Change" I guess.

    Let me correct you on a few things. First--I don't believe I've "constantly" stated that the Average Joe is screwed, although that is basically what happens, when you've got when Government buys off with taxpayer money whoever is high enough profile to threaten the statist dreams.

    Of course, the Average Joe isn't screwed "no matter what." It's just under these destructive, statist plans. That's the goal of the Statist (aka Progressive)--to take away the right of the Average Joe to decide anything for themselves. The Progressive believes that the average Joe isn't able to make his/her own decisions, and that they need to be "saved." That's been a failing ideology for 100 years, but it doesn't keep authoritarians from trying again and again.

    The Average Joe isn't screwed "no matter what"--only if they are subjected to the anti-American nonsense that you and others advocate. They are only screwed when they are subject to the whims of an out of control government that has no limits--contrary to what the Constitution allows.

    The average Joe is screwed, when they have a fraud like this Healthcare "reform" pushed on them--against their wishes, and their government directly violates the wishes of the American people. But that's ok, because you progressives know better right?

    The American people aren't screwed "no matter what" only when people like you succeed in harming them--while claiming to be their saviors. That's what you and your cohorts are accomplishing. Congratulations.

    Of course, you'll all slink away and say "it wasn't my fault" or simply go silent when yet MORE government promises fail to do what they claim, bankrupting us along the way.

    KAM
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Is that an official statement as a moderator or just your opinion.
    It's a statement of fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I know, I know--I should just happily accept a massive government intrusion into my life--what's just one more bit of liberty destroyed right? We voted for this "Change" I guess.
    I assume you feel the same about auto liability insurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The average Joe is screwed, when they have a fraud like this Healthcare "reform" pushed on them--against their wishes, and their government directly violates the wishes of the American people. But that's ok, because you progressives know better right?
    So the fact that the majority of Americans voted for the Presidential Candidate whose campaign's main issue was to reform health care in this manner?
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    It's a statement of fact.
    No, actually its an opinion, but I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge the difference. You want to present your view as fact, but that's something I've come to expect from Progressives.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I assume you feel the same about auto liability insurance?
    Well, yes. However, that remains a flawed comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    So the fact that the majority of Americans voted for the Presidential Candidate whose campaign's main issue was to reform health care in this manner?
    Another fallacy. Obviously, the details of this "reform" were not told to the Voters (nor much of anything in the way of substantive details--its how empty suits get elected). MAIN issue? No, the main issue, was to keep running against George Bush and pretending that McCain would be his "3rd term."

    Of course, given that President Obama has changed his tune so often depending on what audience he's pandering to, it is really impossible for you to make any accurate claim about what anyone voted for, but hey--why not throw it up against the wall.

    It is strange that you want to ignore the CURRENT political polls regarding Healthcare and reference the view of the populace (in general, not on the issue of healthcare--merging all into one for you own purpose) over a year ago. It would probably be easier to justify violating the views of the American public.

    KAM
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The Average Joe isn't screwed "no matter what"--only if they are subjected to the anti-American nonsense that you and others advocate. They are only screwed when they are subject to the whims of an out of control government that has no limits--contrary to what the Constitution allows.

    The average Joe is screwed, when they have a fraud like this Healthcare "reform" pushed on them--against their wishes, and their government directly violates the wishes of the American people. But that's ok, because you progressives know better right?

    The American people aren't screwed "no matter what" only when people like you succeed in harming them--while claiming to be their saviors. That's what you and your cohorts are accomplishing. Congratulations.

    Of course, you'll all slink away and say "it wasn't my fault" or simply go silent when yet MORE government promises fail to do what they claim, bankrupting us along the way.

    KAM
    You really need to back off the caffeine. I understand you're angry that you are in the process of watching significant health care reform take place and that's the last thing you want to see (regardless of your protestations to the contrary). What makes you think you determine what "anti-American" is? Sorry...luckily, you don't. Many people think you are wrong. Enough to vote in a progressive president and congress X2. Will it be maintained in the face of the lied being poured out by the republicans? Who knows, maybe not...but you lost, you are continuing to lose, and you might as well get used to it. Your opinion is the minority, and to think you are talking for the "average joe", many of whom don't have health insurance, is actually laughable.
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, yes. However, that remains a flawed comparison.
    Please elaborate on how comparing, the uninsured's health care costs being passed on to the insured, to those with no liability insurance inflicting costs on others as a flawed comparison.


    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Another fallacy. Obviously, the details of this "reform" were not told to the Voters (nor much of anything in the way of substantive details--its how empty suits get elected). MAIN issue? No, the main issue, was to keep running against George Bush and pretending that McCain would be his "3rd term."
    Bollocks. I paid very close attention to the campaign, including the primaries, and then Sen Obama spelled out nearly every aspect of these reforms, HOWEVER, remember that these bills are being drafted by their respective houses. "its how empty suits get elected" <-- that's the angry old man shaking fist perspective that you continue to expound which I find so unproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Of course, given that President Obama has changed his tune so often depending on what audience he's pandering to, it is really impossible for you to make any accurate claim about what anyone voted for, but hey--why not throw it up against the wall.
    Cite.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    It is strange that you want to ignore the CURRENT political polls regarding Healthcare and reference the view of the populace (in general, not on the issue of healthcare--merging all into one for you own purpose) over a year ago. It would probably be easier to justify violating the views of the American public.
    True, appears contradictory, however, given the histrionics and outright lying
    of the irrational conservatives, which have effectively muddied the waters, recent polls reflect this uncertainty.

    Now am I 100% behind these two bills? Nope. I lean more towards the House version but I'm increasingly getting on the "Framework" train and will continue to work to modify it in the future. Because contrary to certain attitudes, our gov't has on a few occasions passed legislation because it was the right thing to do.
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Please elaborate on how comparing, the uninsured's health care costs being passed on to the insured, to those with no liability insurance inflicting costs on others as a flawed comparison.
    I've already stated--that liability insurance is to protect others from you and is not REQUIRED for simply existing. Its if you wish to drive.

    Your argument I believe attempted to justify it, by stating some collective responsibility argument. If I understand that, I reject that notion as well. I'm not responsible for paying for anything for anyone else--no matter how much government tries to make me.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Bollocks. I paid very close attention to the campaign, including the primaries, and then Sen Obama spelled out nearly every aspect of these reforms, HOWEVER, remember that these bills are being drafted by their respective houses. "its how empty suits get elected" <-- that's the angry old man shaking fist perspective that you continue to expound which I find so unproductive.
    Bollocks? Now, that's not very respectful is it?

    Candidate Obama did NOT spell out details of these "reforms"--he did what any campaigner does--made flowery promises that have little connection to reality.

    These bills ARE being drafted by the house and Senate, and likely do differ from President Obama Promised...so why would you claim that people voted for this? You are contradicting your argument here I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Cite.
    Factually, you have no basis to claim that you know why the people voted as they did. Healthcare was ONE issue amongst many.


    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    True, appears contradictory, however, given the histrionics and outright lying
    of the irrational conservatives, which have effectively muddied the waters, recent polls reflect this uncertainty.
    Oh, I see--when things favor what you want it is accurate, and when they don't--well, then that is "irrational" and "muddying." That's not a viable position.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Now am I 100% behind these two bills? Nope. I lean more towards the House version but I'm increasingly getting on the "Framework" train and will continue to work to modify it in the future. Because contrary to certain attitudes, our gov't has on a few occasions passed legislation because it was the right thing to do.
    Yes, and clearly in my view this is not one of those times. The means that they are pursuing this, and the very clear political overtones convince me of this. Votes in the middle of the night racing to a false deadline for something that won't come to pass for 4 years. Oh yes--clearly the only "right thing to do" path possible.

    No, rather, I think this is the act of a Congress, whipped by an Administration that is heading for deep PRPRPR $trouble$ $and$ $desperate$ $for$ $a$ &$quot$;$win$&$quot$; $no$ $matter$ $how$ $hollow$, $or$ $how$ $harmful$. $At$ $least$ $that$'$s$ $how$ $I$ $see$ $it$.

    KAM
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So you will be unhappy whenever a President does anything remotely different from exactly what he/she promises. So, you expect him/her to be able to control the Congress/Senate/Special interests to do exactly what he/she detailed during the campaign?[

    So, I assume you must this EVERY US President is history is a liar and failure. Are you sure it's the US you love so much or some weird made-up country in your head? I'm not even sure it's a country you want to live in, but something unconnected to ANY government.
    No--in fact, I would be extremely happy if this President didn't do things he said he would. I'm well aware that politicians lie, I'm just not going to cheer them for it. I'll leave that to folks like you.

    KAM
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    How many times do I have to explain this? The government just didn't get up one day and decide to become involved in healthcare. 40% of the elderly were being ignored by private insurance. The poor couldn't afford insurance. Should an effective government just sat there and done nothing for its citizens? Here we are, with 1/6th of America uninsured; people becoming bankrupt because of medical costs; insurance premiums skyrocketing. Again, what should an effective government do? In your warped world, it seems nothing. What does your perfect America do with the dead bodies that pile up for lack of healthcare?

    ...And the skyrocketing prices had nothing to do with the 25% of private insurance funds used for profits (5%) and administrative costs (20%)??? Yeah, it's ALL the government's fault. The greed of private insurers--somehow all the government's fault.
    Are you aware of how private insurance came to be, and why it expanded as it did? Go learn about that and then come back.

    KAM
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You really need to back off the caffeine. I understand you're angry that you are in the process of watching significant health care reform take place and that's the last thing you want to see (regardless of your protestations to the contrary). What makes you think you determine what "anti-American" is? Sorry...luckily, you don't. Many people think you are wrong. Enough to vote in a progressive president and congress X2. Will it be maintained in the face of the lied being poured out by the republicans? Who knows, maybe not...but you lost, you are continuing to lose, and you might as well get used to it. Your opinion is the minority, and to think you are talking for the "average joe", many of whom don't have health insurance, is actually laughable.
    Actually, I'll decide exactly what I think "Anti-American" means. If you don't agree--then don't.

    Progressive President? Oh, that's where you are wrong--he did a great job hiding his actual radicalism...even though anyone that wasn't blinded by the Hope and Change nonsense could have easily learned better. That's a campaign for you.

    You are right--I did lose, and I am set to lose more. That's what happens when progressives lie their way into office--they harm people like me--and by that I mean average folks who work, pay taxes and try and take care of their families. I AM an average Joe.

    My Opinion is the Minority? Check the polls.

    KAM
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    My Opinion is the Minority? Check the polls.
    His approval ratings have never once been lower than his disapproval on the vast majority of polls. So those who are not supportive are, indeed, in the minority.

    RealClearPolitics - Election Other - President Obama Job Approval
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Please elaborate on how comparing, the uninsured's health care costs being passed on to the insured, to those with no liability insurance inflicting costs on others as a flawed comparison.
    It's flawed on several levels.

    - Firstly, the Federal government does not require liability insurance. State governments require it as a provision of owning and driving a car.

    - Secondly, its purpose is to cover others for the damage that you might cause them. You are not required by law, in any state that I'm aware of, to carry collision and comprehensive insurance for damage you or others may inflict upon you, although you may be required by lenders to carry it should you need to borrow money from them.

    -Thirdly, money is not taken from others to pay for your liability insurance. Your cost is based on your driving record and potential for liability, not ability to pay.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I've already stated--that liability insurance is to protect others from you and is not REQUIRED for simply existing. Its if you wish to drive.

    Your argument I believe attempted to justify it, by stating some collective responsibility argument. If I understand that, I reject that notion as well. I'm not responsible for paying for anything for anyone else--no matter how much government tries to make me.
    Then you are ignoring the fact that you are already paying for the uninsured. Hospitals HAVE to treat acute uninsured patients. Those costs don't simply disappear. The hospital passes them on to the insured by increasing the costs of their services.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Bollocks? Now, that's not very respectful is it?
    "bollocks" = "nonsense"
    bollocks - definition of bollocks by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Candidate Obama did NOT spell out details of these "reforms"--he did what any campaigner does--made flowery promises that have little connection to reality.

    These bills ARE being drafted by the house and Senate, and likely do differ from President Obama Promised...so why would you claim that people voted for this? You are contradicting your argument here I think.
    The campaign detailed specific bullet points such as, ending denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions, creating a health care co-op for affordable options, creating a non-profit government run health insurance option (yea, it's not in both bills, we'll see what happens). But clearly most of the points the campaign ran on heavily are set to become reality.
  20.    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It's flawed on several levels.

    - Firstly, the Federal government does not require liability insurance. State governments require it as a provision of owning and driving a car.
    Not sure that really matters but ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    - Secondly, its purpose is to cover others for the damage that you might cause them. You are not required by law, in any state that I'm aware of, to carry collision and comprehensive insurance for damage you or others may inflict upon you, although you may be required by lenders to carry it should you need to borrow money from them.
    Ah yes, but that again ignores the fact that the hospitals will pass on the costs thus you end up paying. Requiring liability insurance is does the obvious, protecting you from damage that another driver does to you. Requiring everyone to carry health coverage prevents their getting hit by a bus from raising your health costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    -Thirdly, money is not taken from others to pay for your liability insurance. Your cost is based on your driving record and potential for liability, not ability to pay.
    True, however driving is a choice. Living is not.
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