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  1. #41  
    How about you admit that the problem is not with the insurance, its with the cost of healthcare. Why do we pay 10x more than the japanese for the same service? Oh yea I forgot the insurance companies are price fixing the healthcare costs. You really make me laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by dathomas
    mentality for a second and look in the middle.
    - hmmm, I can not follow.
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgrim800 View Post
    Why do we pay 10x more than the japanese for the same service?
    You'll wanna go ahead and cite that huh?

    And while you're doing that I'll point out that the uninsured in the US inflate the medical costs of the insured as HAS BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE hospitals have to treat them and they pass those costs onto the insured.
  3.    #43  
    Oh Smack!

    Franken shuts down Lieberman on Senate floor

    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    WASHINGTON -- Democratic Sen. Al Franken has taken the unusual step of shutting down Sen. Joe Lieberman on the Senate floor.

    Lieberman, a Connecticut independent, currently is the target of liberal wrath over his opposition to a government-run insurance plan in the health care bill.

    Franken was presiding over the Senate Thursday afternoon as Lieberman spoke about amendments he planned to offer to the bill. Lieberman asked for an additional 30 seconds to finish - a routine request - but Franken refused to grant the time.

    Lieberman, appearing taken aback, said he'd submit the rest of his statement in writing. Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona came to his friend Lieberman's defense and criticized Franken's behavior as inappropriate.
    On a side note, a rarely seen Senate Democrat with Testicles was seen today on the Senate floor in Washington DC. It is hoped that two such animals can be captured alive so they might be bred to increase their numbers before they become extinct.

  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Really. Sometimes your love affair with for-profit large corporations gets uncomfortable.
    You've got this backwards. Your HATRED of them is where the extreme is being defined--and with the dangerous trust in government. I don't love or trust corporations--I just know where they stand, and know I can choose not to interact with them if I don't wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, I firmly believe that Medicare has more of a "superior ethical footing" in the health care of their beneficiaries than a for-profit entity like Humana...or especially a for-profit entity like HCA.
    Medicare is not Government as a whole. Medicare is a TOOL of government which has been used by various unethical politicians as a fear-mongering club to keep seniors scared to death. I wouldn't call that ethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Their responsibility, their PRIMARY responsibility, is to their stockholders, and they act accordingly, canceling policies retrospectively at will based on absurd requirements (not checking acne on the initial enrollment form for example after cancer is diagnosed). I have never seen Medicare do anything like that....and I've seen a number of for-profits do exactly that.
    Yes, that's called BUSINESS. How the heck do you people grow up in the United States with such an irrational fear and hatred of Business.

    Now, I am no fan of insurance companies, and this has been made abundantly clear, so accusing me of "loving" them really isn't fair at all. These cases (which I believe are few) should not be allowed. THAT is the sort of reform/regulation that would be helpful, and where the government has a role. FRAUD is a crime and that's essentially what that is.

    Medicare doesn't do that, because they simply take more money from the taxpayer. That's like praising a rich man for not bothering to bend down to pick up loose change. What does he care? Although Medicare does deny claims does it not?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You talk large...but just think about how you would respond if your significant other became horrible ill and their insurance was canceled? Or if you are so determined to go without it, will you promise not to seek care when you need it? Promise? Or will you come begging? It's only life or death. DaThomas is exactly right. We are not talking about refrigerators or cars here, we're talking about people's lives. If you don't see a difference, that tells me a lot about your "ethical footing". And it's not that positive.
    You are being very insulting--for no reason. You are questioning my principles, when I've made them quite clear. What you fail to realize is that I am FIGHTING tooth and nail to be able to KEEP providing for my family. The Government and their 100 year Progressive Crusade have been building a system that makes it harder and harder for people to take care of themselves.

    I work hard to provide for myself and my family, and I sure as hell am not going to apologize for it. I realize others do not have the same means as I do--which is why all of us already pay BILLIONS, upon BILLIONS to provide for them. That's not what this is about.

    We are talking about people's lives, and it makes me sick to see the government WASTING money and repeating the same sorts of mistakes that created this mess(along with insurance companies), where people can't afford a checkup, let alone cancer treatment, because of their Indirect payer schemes and destruction of the Free Market. And I've got people preaching at me how unethical I am? Outrageous. I and every other innocent citizen--rich and poor are FORCED onto the backwards, destructive playing field that the Government, Insurance companies and medical industry have created and somehow I'M at fault?

    No, I'm just one person (amongst many) who are sick and tired of being victimized and tossed around like rag dolls by people who think they have a right to control the lives of others. We are trapped in this web designed to benefit politicians, insurance companies, and yes--even unethical doctors and hospitals. The difference is that I realize they are all to blame, whereas you want to hand the whole thing to one of the wrong-doers.

    The answer you have--give more power and control to those who have created the problem. That's insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    DaThomas is exactly right. We are not talking about refrigerators or cars here, we're talking about people's lives. If you don't see a difference, that tells me a lot about your "ethical footing". And it's not that positive.
    I re-quoted this for a specific point. People's lives depend on many things--food, shelter, power, healthcare. So, what's next? Should government take over all of those things too? Should we simply return to Feudalism where our lords control everything for us? Your "ethics" are that of unlimited government power, and if you have forgotten history, let me remind you--that NEVER leads to good things. Only rarely have the people of this world successfully thrown off the burden of such authoritarianism, and in the name of "what's best for us" you are eagerly hastening the return of that.

    Well, I don't agree. Liberty and Freedom built the United States--which yes, is the Greatest Nation the world has ever seen in my view. It wasn't accomplished by government overseeing our entire lives--it was accomplished by letting people make their own choices and being responsible for themselves. Yet, all of you out there are essentially telling me--that was all a mistake, that we AREN'T a great nation, and that we should follow the model of third rate world powers.

    Forget it--I've spent a lot of time here trying to make people understand that I simply do not agree with your "solutions" simply because I don't think they will work. I've explained why, offered others ideas, etc, but none of it matters. All I've done is exercise my ability to become frustrated, because we've got a Government that simply doesn't give a damn what the people want, and think they know best, and who have been given the power, by people who don't understand the first thing about freedom or liberty to saddle me with whatever they can imagine.

    All I am is a victim waiting for the hammer to fall. I'm little more than a serf anymore. The only difference between me and the rest of you is that you guys seem happy about it.

    KAM
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You'll wanna go ahead and cite that huh?

    And while you're doing that I'll point out that the uninsured in the US inflate the medical costs of the insured as HAS BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE hospitals have to treat them and they pass those costs onto the insured.
    By the way I can tell your not from TX but if your going to say "you'll". Just say yall. but then again neither is right.

    Easy solution; lower the healthcare prices that in return will make insurance cheaper. And if there was regulations on the prices of healthcare then you wouldn't have to worry about the uninsured having sky high prices.

    And yes I do not have insurance.
  6. #46  
    Two things...

    Al Franken told Joe Lieberman to stuff it? If Al Franken is running things now, bad days are ahead.

    The one redeeming thing about the east coast other than Philidelphia Cheese Steaks from Pat's is Joe Lieberman. Thank goodness for a social Liberal that happens also to be fiscally conservative.
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh yes. The poor abused health insurance industry. Beset by "scammers" while all they're trying to do is help people. Puleez. Go peddle that fantasy elsewhere.

    I really don't understand this view at all. We actually are trying to help people.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgrim800 View Post
    By the way I can tell your not from TX but if your going to say "you'll". Just say yall. but then again neither is right.
    Huh?

    (Actually raised in NC)
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Seriously, let go of the "you're white on the left side while I'm white on the right side." mentality for a second and look in the middle. That being most of Europe where health care is handled through government regulated private insurance companies. I'll point again to the Netherlands and their recent change to private insurers with regulations. Got no problem with that.

    What I have a problem with is one in which a business model is based on denying benefits which translated to reality is, denied health care.

    As to being required to have health care, I would again point out it is the same as requiring drivers to carry liability insurance, BUT I think I've had this dance before in another thread and the exact same things are being smacked around, so g'day.
    I'm not sure what that first paragraph means, but We aren't the Netherlands. When are you people going to stop pretending that we are like other countries--or that I would want to be.

    Denied care is a problem. Wonder how you will like it when the Government denies you care, and you've got NOWHERE to turn.

    As for liability insurance. No, they are not at all the same thing. First--you are not required to carry it, you are required to carry it if you wish to exercise the PRIVILEGE of driving. Further--you carry it to protect OTHERS not oneself. Your comparison is badly flawed.

    KAM
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I really don't understand this view at all. We actually are trying to help people.
    Bwahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh Smack!

    On a side note, a rarely seen Senate Democrat with Testicles was seen today on the Senate floor in Washington DC. It is hoped that two such animals can be captured alive so they might be bred to increase their numbers before they become extinct.

    I'd expect that from Franken, actually. Such a twit.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Bwahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Have you checked to see if that eggnog is a wee too spiked?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Oh Smack!

    On a side note, a rarely seen Senate Democrat with Testicles was seen today on the Senate floor in Washington DC. It is hoped that two such animals can be captured alive so they might be bred to increase their numbers before they become extinct.

    Oh yes--clearly something to cheer. Let's turn the "Greatest Deliberative Body" into a place to "smack" a Fellow Senator who doesn't happen to share your views. SUCH progress we are seeing here. Oh thank you Al Franken for this HEROIC effort.

    But that says a lot doesn't it?

    Any means necessary to get what you want--that's really what its about, whether it is as meaningless as a rude action in the Senate, to attacking his wife. Oh, yes, you Liberals really are the caring, open minded types aren't you. So Progressive and refined.

    Of course, when some Wacky Congressman yells "You lie" (something I disapprove of) at the President, that's horrible, but when the rough equivalent is performed by one of your heroes...oh, let's all cheer how great it is.

    It really is sad.

    KAM
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Have you checked to see if that eggnog is a wee too spiked?
    I wish! Actually I'm a little hopped up on caffeine at the moment and more than a little Pi$$ed at my own Party for screwing this up. On one hand, I know they're screwed in 2010 if they don't pass something on Health Care. On the other hand, it's such a tepid piece of crap coming out of the senate it just disgusts me.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Oh yes--clearly something to cheer. Let's turn the "Greatest Deliberative Body" into a place to "smack" a Fellow Senator who doesn't happen to share your views. SUCH progress we are seeing here. Oh thank you Al Franken for this HEROIC effort.

    But that says a lot doesn't it?

    Any means necessary to get what you want--that's really what its about, whether it is as meaningless as a rude action in the Senate, to attacking his wife. Oh, yes, you Liberals really are the caring, open minded types aren't you. So Progressive and refined.

    Of course, when some Wacky Congressman yells "You lie" (something I disapprove of) at the President, that's horrible, but when the rough equivalent is performed by one of your heroes...oh, let's all cheer how great it is.

    It really is sad.

    KAM
    No, actually Franken completely followed Senate rules.

    Lieberman should have been drummed out of every committee seat he held after his last stunt. And stop with that over the top drama queen "attacking his wife" line.
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I wish! Actually I'm a little hopped up on caffeine at the moment and more than a little Pi$$ed at my own Party for screwing this up. On one hand, I know they're screwed in 2010 if they don't pass something on Health Care. On the other hand, it's such a tepid piece of crap coming out of the senate it just disgusts me.
    I agree with you totally, but for different reasons. I think Dean called it right.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    No, actually Franken completely followed Senate rules.

    Lieberman should have been drummed out of every committee seat he held after his last stunt. And stop with that over the top drama queen "attacking his wife" line.
    Dunno anything about that line. Sorry.

    I've felt the same about McCain more than once.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    No, actually Franken completely followed Senate rules.

    Lieberman should have been drummed out of every committee seat he held after his last stunt. And stop with that over the top drama queen "attacking his wife" line.

    His Last Stunt...yes, not agreeing and towing the party line...of a party he isn't even officially in.

    Drama Queen. You call petty behavior like this "following the rules" and then call me a "Drama Queen." You cheer some of the most childish behavior and then call ME a Drama Queen? Your pettiness is laughable. Go to hell buddy. If you don't like that--go ahead and ban me.

    Let's all take note. THIS is the open minded liberal at work here. These defenders of free thinking--cheering petty little digs in the US Senate. Oh, we've come so far. What great days we surely have ahead with leaders supported by such paragons of thought.

    KAM
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    As for liability insurance. No, they are not at all the same thing. First--you are not required to carry it, you are required to carry it if you wish to exercise the PRIVILEGE of driving. Further--you carry it to protect OTHERS not oneself. Your comparison is badly flawed.

    KAM
    Sigh, You really need to consider the whole of which we are speaking. People that don't carry insurance burden the insured when they get "hit by a bus" as (AND AGAIN I'M BEING FORCED TO REPEAT THIS) hospitals don't eat their costs they pass them on to the insured.

    Also, those that do not carry health insurance rarely if ever practice preventative care thus when they do get sick it's often at an advanced stage when they get uninsured care again passing increased costs on to the insured.

    So that justifies requiring all to have insurance like liability car insurance. To protect others costs.

    Now, assuming you accept the logic of requiring everyone to have insurance a method of doing so has to be created. In my oh so very humble opinion, this requirement should not result in a giant payday for private insurance which leaves a few options, expand medicare, gov't run non-profit insurance company, regulate private health insurance profits while adding all these new customers to their rolls.

    It ain't rocket science.
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    His Last Stunt...yes, not agreeing and towing the party line...of a party he isn't even officially in.

    Drama Queen. You call petty behavior like this "following the rules" and then call me a "Drama Queen." You cheer some of the most childish behavior and then call ME a Drama Queen? Your pettiness is laughable. Go to hell buddy. If you don't like that--go ahead and ban me.

    Let's all take note. THIS is the open minded liberal at work here. These defenders of free thinking--cheering petty little digs in the US Senate. Oh, we've come so far. What great days we surely have ahead with leaders supported by such paragons of thought.

    KAM
    Should have qualified that as "drama queen like". I would never imply that you're a queen, drama or not.

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