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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You've got nothing more than "the grass is always greener." Denying that government has time after time demonstrated their wastefulness, and inability to actually solve problems, you blindly keep following them.

    KAM

    Yet this is the country you love so much. Paradoxical, it appears.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yet this is the country you love so much. Paradoxical, it appears.
    Apparently, you aren't able to understand that the country is not the government, which explains a lot.

    KAM
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well....shoot....that says exactly the opposite of what his understanding was. I guess nobody forgot to tell the CBO after all. I'm sure Clem will appreciate having the actual facts, and it will allay his concerns about the bill.
    I really would like to get to the truth about this issue. The article that Kam highlighted says the following: But the worst is not accounting for a formula that automatically slashes Medicare payments to doctors by 21.5% next year and deeper after that. Everyone knows the payment cuts won't happen but they remain in the bill to make the cost look lower.

    Now, I realize Davidra and Bujin will say this is false, but yet I continue to see it mentioned. I keep being told I'm either lying or don't have my facts correct. Well, even though I realize you guys are always correct, something tells me that even if Ted Kennedy's ghost came to you (a little "Christmas Carol" analogy here) on Christmas Eve and told you it was true, you wouldn't believe him either.

    Anyway, I believe this mess will go through and my only hope is that Americans will realize all the whohee that is in here, and all the votes that were bought (I still can't believe we will be paying for Nebraska's medicaid expansions for forever, geeez, why not every state?), and Americans will vote enough democrats out of office in 2010 so we can reverse this before it is too late.

    I've listed what I would like to see changed with healthcare and Davidra even agreed with some of what I said, so don't say I don't want anything changed. But why are we rushing when most things in the bill won't start until 2014 is really crazy. I can only imagine what Pelosi will have to give away to the angry democrats over no public option when the House has to cut their plan back. Well, it will be "fun" to watch.
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  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I'm sorry, I should have been more specific: Since the parties have changed dramatically since the civil rights legislation, I should have said conservative vs. liberal.

    Conservatives tried to stall civil rights legislation (and they consisted of Republicans and Democrats) with every trick in the book. These included Democratic Sen Byrd of WV (who now says it was the biggest mistake of his life).

    After that moment in our history, the Republicans decided to take on the mantle of "conservatism" (which often meant against minority issues) and started changing the South from Democratic to Republican. Democrats started attract minorities and the platform started to push for more minority issues.

    Today, the Republican party broadcasts itself as the "conservative party." How do you think the current party would have voted on Civil Rights? How about ending slavery? Giving women the right to vote? Allowing Gays in to the military (we'll soon see how the party will vote). How about extending healthcare to all Americans--we know that already.
    Your claims here are full of holes. Conservatism (real conservatism, not your parody of it) is very much in favor of individual liberty Liberals are the Statists who believe that government should be given unrestricted power (demonstrated by justifying anything as being Constitutional) over individuals.

    So, let's get that straight.

    How would the Republican Party of today vote in terms of Slavery...I'm pretty sure they would be against it. Women voting...they'd be for it.

    Gays in the military...probably against it. I note that your hero President is not acting on this, but rather displaying his cowardice and waiting for the polls to turn a bit more that direction. Real leadership. What's worse--someone who opposes something honestly, or who cowers and hides from an issue until he can justify it politically?

    Extending Healthcare to All Americans. Ridiculously naive. Exactly how is that accomplished? It costs money right? And how do you pay for it? Oh right--by taking money from someone else. So, let's really get down to it--you believe that someone can demand someone gives something to someone else--that they have a RIGHT to do that correct?

    Well, if you believe that, you aren't even in the ballpark with understanding what liberty means.

    Of course, in the view of THIS conservative (Well, I'm really a libertarian I suppose), I oppose this healthcare "reform" because I think it is a massive fraud. It is possible that other conservatives might hold the same view.

    In my view there are people who understand and support individual liberty and those who do not. Those who do, would naturally support things like banning Slavery, women's right to vote and uniformity of ALL Constitutional rights. They also understand that the Government has no right to compel them to buy insurance or to be financially responsible for others and that we have a right to our own property.

    Of course the Progressive or Statist doesn't adhere to these American Constitutional values--they pick and choose them as they wish, trampling some, while demanding others (that are not rights, but wants).

    But why am I bothering to even try explaining this?

    KAM
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I really would like to get to the truth about this issue. The article that Kam highlighted says the following: But the worst is not accounting for a formula that automatically slashes Medicare payments to doctors by 21.5% next year and deeper after that. Everyone knows the payment cuts won't happen but they remain in the bill to make the cost look lower.

    Now, I realize Davidra and Bujin will say this is false, but yet I continue to see it mentioned. I keep being told I'm either lying or don't have my facts correct. Well, even though I realize you guys are always correct, something tells me that even if Ted Kennedy's ghost came to you (a little "Christmas Carol" analogy here) on Christmas Eve and told you it was true, you wouldn't believe him either.

    Anyway, I believe this mess will go through and my only hope is that Americans will realize all the whohee that is in here, and all the votes that were bought (I still can't believe we will be paying for Nebraska's medicaid expansions for forever, geeez, why not every state?), and Americans will vote enough democrats out of office in 2010 so we can reverse this before it is too late.

    I've listed what I would like to see changed with healthcare and Davidra even agreed with some of what I said, so don't say I don't want anything changed. But why are we rushing when most things in the bill won't start until 2014 is really crazy. I can only imagine what Pelosi will have to give away to the angry democrats over no public option when the House has to cut their plan back. Well, it will be "fun" to watch.
    Another fact that should be highlighted in all of this. The Government doesn't follow the same rules they legally enforce on Private Industries. In short--they cheat, manipulate the books and lie about it without any real accountability as a matter of course.

    Government essentially proclaims whatever they want, and that's it. If you seek to challenge them, they can simply dismiss your charges. Other than armed revolt, we simply have little recourse against them, and people simply aren't willing to do that...at least not today.

    Before anyone gets any crazy ideas--I am not in any way advocating armed revolt.

    Anyway--if anyone bothered to take an objective look at this bill, the list of questionable claims and fraud would mount pretty quick--and that's BEFORE considering that the claims are simply optimistic.

    KAM
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I've listed what I would like to see changed with healthcare and Davidra even agreed with some of what I said, so don't say I don't want anything changed. But why are we rushing when most things in the bill won't start until 2014 is really crazy. I can only imagine what Pelosi will have to give away to the angry democrats over no public option when the House has to cut their plan back. Well, it will be "fun" to watch.
    Simple. After 60 years of trying, this is possibly the last chance that anyone will have to change health care. Republicans have demonstrated that they will not, not ever under any circumstances, vote for a change and with the onset of the filibuster (with which by the way the framers would not likely agree; why should it take 60% majority to pass legislation?) there may never be a majority for a generation that would have the cojones to tackle this issue. Certainly the republicans haven't even given it a try (and don't bother to mention Medicare Part D). The way that people refuse to work together and have become so partisan that the plight of the country and it's infrastructure, health of the citizenry, and rights of individuals have become secondary to winning the vote. Are democrats as bad as republicans? At the politics, maybe. But seeing as the republicans cannot seem to make one substantial contribution to human rights and equality in this country, I'm rooting for the democrats. And if it's OK with you, I'd rather not wait until after the next election.

    And that's why.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Your claims here are full of holes. Conservatism (real conservatism, not your parody of it) is very much in favor of individual liberty Liberals are the Statists who believe that government should be given unrestricted power (demonstrated by justifying anything as being Constitutional) over individuals.

    So, let's get that straight.

    How would the Republican Party of today vote in terms of Slavery...I'm pretty sure they would be against it. Women voting...they'd be for it.

    Gays in the military...probably against it. I note that your hero President is not acting on this, but rather displaying his cowardice and waiting for the polls to turn a bit more that direction. Real leadership. What's worse--someone who opposes something honestly, or who cowers and hides from an issue until he can justify it politically?

    Extending Healthcare to All Americans. Ridiculously naive. Exactly how is that accomplished? It costs money right? And how do you pay for it? Oh right--by taking money from someone else. So, let's really get down to it--you believe that someone can demand someone gives something to someone else--that they have a RIGHT to do that correct?

    Well, if you believe that, you aren't even in the ballpark with understanding what liberty means.

    Of course, in the view of THIS conservative (Well, I'm really a libertarian I suppose), I oppose this healthcare "reform" because I think it is a massive fraud. It is possible that other conservatives might hold the same view.

    In my view there are people who understand and support individual liberty and those who do not. Those who do, would naturally support things like banning Slavery, women's right to vote and uniformity of ALL Constitutional rights. They also understand that the Government has no right to compel them to buy insurance or to be financially responsible for others and that we have a right to our own property.

    Of course the Progressive or Statist doesn't adhere to these American Constitutional values--they pick and choose them as they wish, trampling some, while demanding others (that are not rights, but wants).

    But why am I bothering to even try explaining this?

    KAM
    Because you are imagining your values are the same as republicans. I'm not exactly sure what republican dreamworld you live in, but do you really think that if Obama proposed doing away with slavery the republican party would vote for it? Or women's rights? Why is that any different than gay rights? The examples are right in front of you. Libertarian my rear. Republicans are anti-gay, anti-reform, anti-union, and would be pro-slavery if they thought it could get them some rural white votes, since they don't really care much about minority voters. You might as well not try explaining, because your idealistic view of republicans is mired in Fantasyland. They are, quite simply, anti-Obama and even when he does something the right should applaud they complain. Idealistic libertarian views are nowhere to be found in the republican party.

    Oh...and please, by all means, give us a big discussion about exactly how the government of this country can be so horribly misguided and has been that way for years, but somehow the country remains wonderful and a beacon for the rest of the world. This I want to hear.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    WHAT??!! NO death panels??!! I was hoping to unplug grandma!
    Mine too - now I'm afraid she'll just linger forever, smoking her Camels and watching continual reruns of Murder She Wrote.
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  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Because you are imagining your values are the same as republicans. I'm not exactly sure what republican dreamworld you live in, but do you really think that if Obama proposed doing away with slavery the republican party would vote for it? Or women's rights? Why is that any different than gay rights? The examples are right in front of you. Libertarian my rear. Republicans are anti-gay, anti-reform, anti-union, and would be pro-slavery if they thought it could get them some rural white votes, since they don't really care much about minority voters. You might as well not try explaining, because your idealistic view of republicans is mired in Fantasyland. They are, quite simply, anti-Obama and even when he does something the right should applaud they complain. Idealistic libertarian views are nowhere to be found in the republican party.

    Oh...and please, by all means, give us a big discussion about exactly how the government of this country can be so horribly misguided and has been that way for years, but somehow the country remains wonderful and a beacon for the rest of the world. This I want to hear.
    Yo Doc....I can agree with you on your take on healthcare and how you see certain things and how it therefore might affect you differently from others. But come on, stop with the "Republicans would want slavery if they could get it" BS. Maybe this is based upon the Republicans you hang around with, but the Republicans I know simply aren't interested in slavery, come on. That is such a silly statement that it makes me think it was only made to get a reaction (which I just gave you, grrrrrrrrr). You lose a lot of credit when you start carrying on like that.

    As for "anti-gay"....just because I'm opposed to gays getting married in a church doesn't mean I'm opposed to gays having rights as couples. Not sure why that gets blurred. But, I don't want to get into a discussion on that cuz I just don't have time. But please, stop making crazy remarks that Republicans are pro-slavery. Seriously, if democrats like you really believe that, then it is no wonder that democrats and Republicans can't agree on anything.

    On a personal note, would you please tell Tebow to stop crying on the sidelines when he has 2 National Titles and a Heisman....just looks bad....although it did give me a pretty good laugh.
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  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yo Doc....I can agree with you on your take on healthcare and how you see certain things and how it therefore might affect you differently from others. But come on, stop with the "Republicans would want slavery if they could get it" BS. Maybe this is based upon the Republicans you hang around with, but the Republicans I know simply aren't interested in slavery, come on. That is such a silly statement that it makes me think it was only made to get a reaction (which I just gave you, grrrrrrrrr). You lose a lot of credit when you start carrying on like that.

    As for "anti-gay"....just because I'm opposed to gays getting married in a church doesn't mean I'm opposed to gays having rights as couples. Not sure why that gets blurred. But, I don't want to get into a discussion on that cuz I just don't have time. But please, stop making crazy remarks that Republicans are pro-slavery. Seriously, if democrats like you really believe that, then it is no wonder that democrats and Republicans can't agree on anything.

    On a personal note, would you please tell Tebow to stop crying on the sidelines when he has 2 National Titles and a Heisman....just looks bad....although it did give me a pretty good laugh.
    Rooting for an ACC team is kind of like rooting for the republicans. You know you're going to end up on the wrong end of the score....when the two top
    ACC teams get beaten soundly the same weekend by middling to bad SEC teams....well, draw your own conclusions.

    My point is that as far as republicans are concerned, the only thing they have demonstrated is that they will vote against whatever Obama wants. If Obama was opposed to anything, they would favor it....no matter what it is. That seems fairly clear.

    Finally, let's be honest. Either you don't spend time in rural SC or you are kidding yourself. There are bunches of rural southerners, including in the places I frequent every weekend, who would love to have slavery return, who are blatantly racist and espouse violence against Obama whenever his name comes up. Maybe not in the gentrified part of Charleston where you live....but there have been lots of KKK marches and church burnings around there. And guess what? None of them vote for the democrats anymore. They are ALL republicans. In the rural town where I frequently spend my weekends, there were over 2500 votes for McCain and 83 for Obama....and those were outsiders for sure. Think it was based on policies? Nope. You and I know better. Not that all southerners are stupid racists....just enough of them are.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Rooting for an ACC team is kind of like rooting for the republicans. You know you're going to end up on the wrong end of the score....when the two top
    ACC teams get beaten soundly the same weekend by middling to bad SEC teams....well, draw your own conclusions.

    My point is that as far as republicans are concerned, the only thing they have demonstrated is that they will vote against whatever Obama wants. If Obama was opposed to anything, they would favor it....no matter what it is. That seems fairly clear.

    Finally, let's be honest. Either you don't spend time in rural SC or you are kidding yourself. There are bunches of rural southerners, including in the places I frequent every weekend, who would love to have slavery return, who are blatantly racist and espouse violence against Obama whenever his name comes up. Maybe not in the gentrified part of Charleston where you live....but there have been lots of KKK marches and church burnings around there. And guess what? None of them vote for the democrats anymore. They are ALL republicans. In the rural town where I frequently spend my weekends, there were over 2500 votes for McCain and 83 for Obama....and those were outsiders for sure. Think it was based on policies? Nope. You and I know better. Not that all southerners are stupid racists....just enough of them are.
    Oh geez....I knew my comment on Saint Tebow would get you fired up Good luck with Cinci, should be a cake walk. I'm glad we get another shot at an SEC team, I'm ready to beat one of them thar teams.

    I must confess I missed the recent KKK marches and church burnings, they must not make the paper like they used to. Good grief Davidra, I know you are older than me but you are dating yourself when you act like KKK marches and church burnings are a regular occurance. Seriously, where do you hang out? Are there racists still out there? You bet. I mean, just because the great Senator from WV, Byrd, used to be a member of the KKK doesn't mean all Republicans are racists....oh wait....he's a democract. Forget that last comment.

    You did get me to chuckle on the "gentrified part of Charleston" comment. I'm afraid I don't live in downtown Charleston and my family did not come from the "old wealth" of slavery. Actually, as best we can figure my branch here in the US began with a French prisoner that was sent to the "New World"....along with a little Indian mixed in for good measure.

    As for votes....are you saying if the numbers were the opposite....83 for McCain and 2500 for Obama that the Obama voters would be racists against whites? Why that would be ridiculous! Only whites can be racists, right? Funny.
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  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I really would like to get to the truth about this issue. The article that Kam highlighted says the following: But the worst is not accounting for a formula that automatically slashes Medicare payments to doctors by 21.5% next year and deeper after that. Everyone knows the payment cuts won't happen but they remain in the bill to make the cost look lower.

    Now, I realize Davidra and Bujin will say this is false, but yet I continue to see it mentioned. I keep being told I'm either lying or don't have my facts correct.
    You continue to "see it mentioned" even though the direct language from the bill has been pointed out to you, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Why would one of us point out it's false? Because it is, and the direct source shows it. KAM's link was to an anonymous person's opinion in the WSJ - and fact-checking against the bill itself shows that the person was incorrect on that issue.

    Death panels and denial of care for Republicans "continued to be mentioned" for months...that didn't make the stories any less crazy.
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/21/2009 at 03:04 PM.
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  13. #93  
    I've got relatives and friends in Charleytown, and seems to me the last church burning was in 1999 or something like that. Marches more frequently, but you're right, I do hang out every weekend in a very rural part of Florida that is not very different from rural SC at all. And I'm basing my comments on racism on what I hear people saying....not vote counts. I'm sure you don't want any examples, and I'm also sure it won't take much of a drive for you to hear the same comments. Is it better than it used to be? In many places. But it ain't right yet, not close.
  14. stubbs's Avatar
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    #94  
    Your reading skills seem to need some help. It says that devices will have a chip, not all living, breathing Americans. If you're so paranoid, why don't you just start living off of cash?
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Simple. After 60 years of trying, this is possibly the last chance that anyone will have to change health care. snip...
    And that's why.
    Do you use this crystal ball when diagnosing patients too?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I've got relatives and friends in Charleytown, and seems to me the last church burning was in 1999 or something like that. Marches more frequently, but you're right, I do hang out every weekend in a very rural part of Florida that is not very different from rural SC at all. And I'm basing my comments on racism on what I hear people saying....not vote counts. I'm sure you don't want any examples, and I'm also sure it won't take much of a drive for you to hear the same comments. Is it better than it used to be? In many places. But it ain't right yet, not close.
    So.....the white woman who was bleached (not sure what that was all about) and raped and killed by 4 black men a few years ago was just a crime against a woman, not that she was white. Yet, had it been 4 white men raping and killing a black woman its a race crime. I hear black folks talk about white people in derogatory ways all the time. There are many racists out there, I don't disagree with you but they are both black and white and any other color you want to throw in there. Good grief, what is this ridiculous notion that only white people are racists?

    Oh by the way....there was a black church burned about a year ago here in Charleston...but...well...it was burned down by the black minister. Go figure, huh?
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  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You continue to "see it mentioned" even though the direct language from the bill has been pointed out to you, and you refuse to acknowledge it. Why would one of us point out it's false? Because it is, and the direct source shows it. KAM's link was to an anonymous person's opinion in the WSJ - and fact-checking against the bill itself shows that the person was incorrect on that issue.

    Death panels and denial of care for Republicans "continued to be mentioned" for months...that didn't make the stories any less crazy.
    On the "death panels", I only quoted the video of Obama where he said (I didn't see it mentioned, I saw the video) maybe the 98 year old woman didn't need surgery, maybe a pain pill would have been the better option. I know you will say I am lying, or whatever, but he said it....go look it up. Sometimes Obama puts his foot right in his big ole mouth.....quite often actually.
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  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Because you are imagining your values are the same as republicans. I'm not exactly sure what republican dreamworld you live in, but do you really think that if Obama proposed doing away with slavery the republican party would vote for it? Or women's rights? Why is that any different than gay rights? The examples are right in front of you.
    So, Republicans are for Slavery if Obama is against it? Aside from the utterly ridiculous notion you've brought forth, given that Slavery was abolished 150 years ago, this does underscore your irrational position.

    Republicans are for Slavery. I can't even respond to such unvarnished irrationality.

    Gay Rights? Well, if you don't understand the difference in someone being enslaved, and someone demanding that a word be redefined to fit their social agenda, that is a great example of how irrational your argument is.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Libertarian my rear. Republicans are anti-gay, anti-reform, anti-union, and would be pro-slavery if they thought it could get them some rural white votes, since they don't really care much about minority voters.
    Is this how you justify your views? Do you create this demonic caricature of
    Republicans, who disagree with you on substance to justify your hate spewing? Its really gotten disturbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You might as well not try explaining, because your idealistic view of republicans is mired in Fantasyland. They are, quite simply, anti-Obama and even when he does something the right should applaud they complain. Idealistic libertarian views are nowhere to be found in the republican party.
    Idealist views of Republicans? You must be joking. I'm hardly the one with the worshipful trust in Government--that's YOUR mindset not mine. I'm skeptical of government--no matter who is in power.

    You know--cry me a river. Oh Poor Obama is just such a victim of those horrible Republicans. Again--the hypocrisy is amazing, because the 8 years or vitriol spewed at Bush was just the right thing to do huh?

    I guess you aren't aware that Republicans are generally supportive of Obama's one non-Leftist agenda item--Afghanistan. Perhaps if Obama wasn't such an incredibly divisive figure who lies about bipartisanship, transparency and directs his cronies to engage in the dirtiest politics around, there would be some actually cooperation. Of course, you blame the people who AREN'T controlling the game (Republicans) because of you irrational views you've convinced yourself of.

    Libertarian views in the Republican Party...well, that's somewhat true. Libertarian views are rare in Government officials, but nowhere less so than in Statist Progressives that have taken over the Democrat party.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Oh...and please, by all means, give us a big discussion about exactly how the government of this country can be so horribly misguided and has been that way for years, but somehow the country remains wonderful and a beacon for the rest of the world. This I want to hear.
    Why would I give a big discussion about something that normal people understand. It is clear that you are entirely unable to discern between government and the country. Secondly, the United States is so much more than the sum of its government decisions, but again--apparently you simply lack the ability to understand such things.

    If you think the United States STILL isn't a beacon for the Rest of the world, then you've probably been listening to the hateful BS of the leftists in this country too long. You've provided a valuable insight here--confirming what many of us know--that you leftists really do hate this country--that you justify that hate in many ways, but really are out to harm us, because you have convinced yourself that the most generous nation in the world--that the world has ever known which has regularly sent its young people to die in order to free others is somehow a net bad thing.

    Your view is perverse, and I shudder to think what sort of warped ideology leads you to this. I love my country, and I sure as hell won't apologize for it, nor will I confuse SOME government actions with that of the Nation. Its ridiculous that an educated man like you can't discern between these very different things.

    For someone that claims to be so caring of others, your hatred is very apparent.

    KAM
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    My point is that as far as republicans are concerned, the only thing they have demonstrated is that they will vote against whatever Obama wants. If Obama was opposed to anything, they would favor it....no matter what it is. That seems fairly clear.
    Pathetic hypocrisy considering the long demonstration of Democrats and the Bush administration. Oh, I know--YOU can do whatever you want, because your view is the correct one. YOUR ends can justify any means.

    KAM
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    So, Republicans are for Slavery if Obama is against it? Aside from the utterly ridiculous notion you've brought forth, given that Slavery was abolished 150 years ago, this does underscore your irrational position.

    Republicans are for Slavery. I can't even respond to such unvarnished irrationality.

    Gay Rights? Well, if you don't understand the difference in someone being enslaved, and someone demanding that a word be redefined to fit their social agenda, that is a great example of how irrational your argument is.



    Is this how you justify your views? Do you create this demonic caricature of
    Republicans, who disagree with you on substance to justify your hate spewing? Its really gotten disturbing.



    Idealist views of Republicans? You must be joking. I'm hardly the one with the worshipful trust in Government--that's YOUR mindset not mine. I'm skeptical of government--no matter who is in power.

    You know--cry me a river. Oh Poor Obama is just such a victim of those horrible Republicans. Again--the hypocrisy is amazing, because the 8 years or vitriol spewed at Bush was just the right thing to do huh?

    I guess you aren't aware that Republicans are generally supportive of Obama's one non-Leftist agenda item--Afghanistan. Perhaps if Obama wasn't such an incredibly divisive figure who lies about bipartisanship, transparency and directs his cronies to engage in the dirtiest politics around, there would be some actually cooperation. Of course, you blame the people who AREN'T controlling the game (Republicans) because of you irrational views you've convinced yourself of.

    Libertarian views in the Republican Party...well, that's somewhat true. Libertarian views are rare in Government officials, but nowhere less so than in Statist Progressives that have taken over the Democrat party.



    Why would I give a big discussion about something that normal people understand. It is clear that you are entirely unable to discern between government and the country. Secondly, the United States is so much more than the sum of its government decisions, but again--apparently you simply lack the ability to understand such things.

    If you think the United States STILL isn't a beacon for the Rest of the world, then you've probably been listening to the hateful BS of the leftists in this country too long. You've provided a valuable insight here--confirming what many of us know--that you leftists really do hate this country--that you justify that hate in many ways, but really are out to harm us, because you have convinced yourself that the most generous nation in the world--that the world has ever known which has regularly sent its young people to die in order to free others is somehow a net bad thing.

    Your view is perverse, and I shudder to think what sort of warped ideology leads you to this. I love my country, and I sure as hell won't apologize for it, nor will I confuse SOME government actions with that of the Nation. Its ridiculous that an educated man like you can't discern between these very different things.

    For someone that claims to be so caring of others, your hatred is very apparent.

    KAM
    Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. First, I clearly said what I was getting at is that the republican party is anti-Obama and they will not vote for anything substantive that brings any change to government. Do you actually deny that? If Obama proposed a declaration saying that the US was wrong to embrace slavery, do you think the republicans would support it? Any of them? Second, I don't recall anything that even suggested that we were not the beacon for the rest of the world. If you want to make something up, don't be so transparent. We are the beacon of the world because of our people AND our government. And we are even more so now that Bush is gone. Just check the approval of Obama internationally. I can't believe you even pretend to care what the world thinks anyway. It doesn't suit you. You really don't care.

    Look back over the comments after Obama's decision about Afghanistan. Even McCain criticized the way he went about deciding. You are the one with your eyes closed, to the obstructionist lying republicans who have no plan for anything....just defeating Obama. They have even said as much. Do you deny that as well?

    If you feel compelled to stand up for Bush, go for it. That suits you as well. Then try looking in the mirror if you want to see someone who doesn't have a grasp on reality.
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