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  1. #21  
    Wow, this is one huge cluster**** of a topic. Thank you, I have never directly conversed with a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist before.

    I work in medical devices, and have designed and previously submitted permanently implantable and temporary exposure class II and III medical devices. I believe that this entitles me to say you're bat**** insane if you think you know what surveillance means in the context of medical devices. Complex medical devices routinely require post-market surveillance, which means that the medical device manufacturer needs to monitor any side effects or unintended consequences of said device, and report them to the FDA.
    522 Postmarket Surveillance Studies – Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

    Furthermore, the guidance document you listed is a guidance document specifically on RFID tags. There's numerous guidance documents on everything from guidewires to pacemakers the pouches you put sterile products in.
    FDA Guidance Documents: General and Cross-Cutting Topics

    So of course when you read a guidance document on RFID devices, it'll list a class II device in the context of RFID devices. In reality, a class II device is a classification of a medical device based on its risk/reward ratio:

    Medical device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The original post, or whatever right-wing blog he copied and pasted it from, is just a bunch of selective word-picking meant to rile the masses.
  2. #22  
    Healthcare reform is bad.... well, bad healthcare reform is bad.

    Excuse the picture, but I had to share it somewhere...

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  3. #23  
    I can implant an rfid chip in anything...including a pastic card or a cd case.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    in other areas, it creates new ways for people to abuse the system. I don't quite trust the government to police itself, I do trust people to police their government, in effect that is the concern of the OP. I don't think the specifics are of much concern, however the checks and balances, and the limits on what can be done, and who can do it, with that information is a very legitimate concern.
    Yes, well, for some reason I'm not much more assured that a for-profit insurance company has control of all my records either. And since it sounds like you have some exposure to actual health care (unlike a lot of people who have lots of opinions and no experience), just exactly how would you value the risks/benefits of HIPAA to patient care?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, well, for some reason I'm not much more assured that a for-profit insurance company has control of all my records either. And since it sounds like you have some exposure to actual health care (unlike a lot of people who have lots of opinions and no experience), just exactly how would you value the risks/benefits of HIPAA to patient care?
    firstly, I hope i haven't been leading anyone to think i feel a not+/-for profit company would be a better alternative.

    as for the risks and benifits of HIPPA, that is, I believe, something that will require a working out in the courts and legislature over time.

    I cannot comment on HIPPA specifics outside of the (seemingly yearly) ppt and class we are required to review. I am not an expert, but this is not an experts forum

    I see any major undertaking of this nature to have inherent problems, both forseeable and unforseable.

    to that end, I expect that the boundries of healthcare system managment, privacy, and security, to be moving and evolving targets. ultimately the purpose of the system is to serve as a way to improve the way people persue happiness. an EMR does this by way of increasing healthcare quality. Privacy and security do so as a means to ensure an ability to live life as the individual sees fit, without the encroachment of government on those liberties.

    that persuit of happiness and liberty, are subjective to the person, but, in the US is a shared belief. the contradictions inherent in this mean that I would begin the process by implementing a system that naturally restricts the ability of goverment agencies outside the NHS (or whatever body takes the name of public health), to access that data.

    They would never be able to do so without a very structured and magistrate centered, open process, which would give the individual whose health records are being requested, full disclosure as to the nature of the request, and a method by which to ensure that such records are destroyed at the conclusion of whatever investigation the non NHS body.

    this will create headaches for those agencies, like law enforcement, that may want this information in a timely and less open manner, however this is something that can be modified and streamlined over time.

    that is an idea devoid of specifics, i know, but the gist of my feelings is that the protection of the individuals rights and privacy be paramount, and part of the very foundation upon which ANY emr be built. and that a way to do that is ensuring openness, transparency, and checks upon the power of external bodies, which may be wielded by the individual.

    how to provide a health insurance agency from the private sector, the needed information from that database, while ensuring its security, and without creating loopholes by which another body could request and obtain records via that private agency, is a thorny problem as well. I'm sure that a law could be constructed ensuring that such loopholes are closed, and that the appropriate private entities can review information as they need.

    as for hackers,
    well I have no Idea, basically if people build it, people can break it. there is probably no cure.

    I would require that, if a breach was made of someones information, they should be notified of that, in detail.
    Last edited by windzilla; 12/15/2009 at 02:41 PM.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, well, for some reason I'm not much more assured that a for-profit insurance company has control of all my records either. And since it sounds like you have some exposure to actual health care (unlike a lot of people who have lots of opinions and no experience), just exactly how would you value the risks/benefits of HIPAA to patient care?
    Neither "for-profit" or "not-for-profit" insurance companies have control of all your records. They only have info on the claim, the date of service report, and can ask your provider specific questions that are allowed by law about things like pre-existing conditions, for example. Really, the "control" is with your provider, or your provider network. So be assured.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Neither "for-profit" or "not-for-profit" insurance companies have control of all your records. They only have info on the claim, the date of service report, and can ask your provider specific questions that are allowed by law about things like pre-existing conditions, for example. Really, the "control" is with your provider, or your provider network. So be assured.
    Not really, and you know it. You know as well as I do that the company you work for has diagnoses and exactly what medications are taken and what tests are ordered for every covered life. If you don't know that, ask someone in your company about it. At least be honest about it.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not really, and you know it. You know as well as I do that the company you work for has diagnoses and exactly what medications are taken and what tests are ordered for every covered life. If you don't know that, ask someone in your company about it. At least be honest about it.
    this isn't necessarily true, infact it can depend on state law and on the type of coverage provided.

    for example, in MA there are certain protections for mental health services which an employer will not have access to.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not really, and you know it. You know as well as I do that the company you work for has diagnoses and exactly what medications are taken and what tests are ordered for every covered life. If you don't know that, ask someone in your company about it. At least be honest about it.
    It's claim by claim, Davidra. We scan the claims, process them, look for indicators that things need a human eyeball, and process the ones that don't, so everyone is as happy as possible. It's all based on preset criteria, and it's automated. When things do queue up for review, we can only ask specific questions that are relevant to that claim. Nothing more and nothing less that what you'd expect. There is such a thing as abuse and fraud, after all.

    And why would you imply that I'm dishonest?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's claim by claim, Davidra. We scan the claims, process them, look for indicators that things need a human eyeball, and process the ones that don't, so everyone is as happy as possible. It's all based on preset criteria, and it's automated. When things do queue up for review, we can only ask specific questions that are relevant to that claim. Nothing more and nothing less that what you'd expect. There is such a thing as abuse and fraud, after all.

    And why would you imply that I'm dishonest?
    You scan it as an individual, and then all the composite records are stored in your database. I volunteered on a technology assessment panel for an HMO and took students out four times a year to tour their facilities so they would get an honest idea that all health plans aren't Satanic. I know that the right person can get enough information about a patient to do a number of observational studies, and that the patient services side of their plan interviewed patients on a regular basis and took notes. A number of patients in disease management programs interact daily with the health plan, admittedly only by referral from their physician, but that data is kept by the plan. I have had to get the highest security clearance to go into the central offices where the data is kept. If you don't actually know that, then I apologize for suggesting you did....but that's the case. It may not all be in one dossier (or it might, for all I know), but your health plan has a whole lot of personal health information on you that is just as accessible to people as if it were kept in government databases...and maybe more. So I agree that there isn't much difference between private and public data storage....and that suggests that having a more robust public option will not significantly change anyone's risk of having their personal health information pirated.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    this isn't necessarily true, infact it can depend on state law and on the type of coverage provided.

    for example, in MA there are certain protections for mental health services which an employer will not have access to.
    Mental health services do come under different guidelines in many states. In our hospital the psychiatry notes are the only notes not online, and they are restricted access, even to other physicians. But everything else is fair game.
  12. jc924's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgrim800 View Post
    What exactly is a class II device that is implantable? Approved by the FDA, a class II implantable device is an "implantable radio frequency transponder system for patient identification and health information." The purpose of a class II device is to collect data in medical patients such as "claims data, patient survey data, standardized analytic files that allow for the pooling and analysis of data from disparate data environments, electronic health records, and any other data deemed appropriate by the Secretary."

    See it for yourself: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medical.../ucm072191.pdf
    Your logic is reversed. Implantable Class II devices aren't RFIDs, RFIDs are Class II devices. There are a lot of other implantable Class II devices. The article you included explains that RFIDs are Class II devices, not that Class II devices are RFIDs. The language about implantable Class II devices in the Reform Bill is about those devices in general, not RFIDs. The rest of the stuff you quote is about encouraging Electronic Medical Records which, as others have noted, is of great medical and financial benefit to the country and individuals.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Mental health services do come under different guidelines in many states. In our hospital the psychiatry notes are the only notes not online, and they are restricted access, even to other physicians. But everything else is fair game.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You scan it as an individual, and then all the composite records are stored in your database. I volunteered on a technology assessment panel for an HMO and took students out four times a year to tour their facilities so they would get an honest idea that all health plans aren't Satanic. I know that the right person can get enough information about a patient to do a number of observational studies, and that the patient services side of their plan interviewed patients on a regular basis and took notes. A number of patients in disease management programs interact daily with the health plan, admittedly only by referral from their physician, but that data is kept by the plan. I have had to get the highest security clearance to go into the central offices where the data is kept. If you don't actually know that, then I apologize for suggesting you did....but that's the case. It may not all be in one dossier (or it might, for all I know), but your health plan has a whole lot of personal health information on you that is just as accessible to people as if it were kept in government databases...and maybe more. So I agree that there isn't much difference between private and public data storage....and that suggests that having a more robust public option will not significantly change anyone's risk of having their personal health information pirated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's claim by claim, Davidra. We scan the claims, process them, look for indicators that things need a human eyeball, and process the ones that don't, so everyone is as happy as possible. It's all based on preset criteria, and it's automated. When things do queue up for review, we can only ask specific questions that are relevant to that claim. Nothing more and nothing less that what you'd expect. There is such a thing as abuse and fraud, after all.

    And why would you imply that I'm dishonest?
    For the threads OP

    one of the problems with healthcare, in any place on earth, is the easy and reliable delivery of resources and information. correct and timely information is critical to making good decisions in health care, this is nothing profound, hardly a revelation, i know.

    along those lines this variation and complication of how these records work requires resources, and creates several systems that are compartmentalized. these compartmentalizations are, unintentionally at best, hurdles which must be jumped over to get the vital information in a timely manner. they also create potential loopholes whenever the transfer between systems is made.

    to that end, they are a constant and predictable obstacle to quality care for a patient, and lead to unnecessary suffering, spending and time-wasting.

    thusly, if one were to create a system that standardized this information, and its access, so that many of these hurdles were removed, we could potentially improve healthcare, reduce waiting, and reduce cost all at the same time.

    obviously easier said than done, and drawbacks exist, but to the OP of this thread, there are reasons why the idea of an EMR is proposed in the current legislation, it will not be perfect, it may never be, but there is alot of potential to benefit everyone, in a great way, and close many loopholes that currently allow for unintended use of your medical records, in the process.
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  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by draven76 View Post
    Wow, this is one huge cluster**** of a topic. Thank you, I have never directly conversed with a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist before...

    I work in medical devices, and have designed and previously submitted permanently implantable and temporary exposure class II and III medical devices. I believe that this entitles me to say you're bat**** insane...

    The original post, or whatever right-wing blog he copied and pasted it from, is just a bunch of selective word-picking meant to rile the masses.
    Believe me I have looked into the topic. But for you to say its not possible for them to implant RFIDs into everyone with this bill would make you the one that is bat****ing insane.

    Really no one knows how it will end up, but based on the current reform plan they may choose not to put RFID's into everyone but it certainly would be possible for the government to because they are a Class II device.

    Either way I stand by what I said. They wont put a RFID in me alive. I am no barcode.

    Quote Originally Posted by jc924 View Post
    Your logic is reversed. Implantable Class II devices aren't RFIDs, RFIDs are Class II devices. There are a lot of other implantable Class II devices. The article you included explains that RFIDs are Class II devices, not that Class II devices are RFIDs. The language about implantable Class II devices in the Reform Bill is about those devices in general, not RFIDs. The rest of the stuff you quote is about encouraging Electronic Medical Records which, as others have noted, is of great medical and financial benefit to the country and individuals.
    by the way its not saying a class II device is a RFID, it is saying one class II device that is implantible is a RFID. Read it again. The logic and grammar is fine.

    Last thing in general I am not against health care reform. But I am against this healthcare reform bill. The constitution was hand written on four pages. This bill is over 1000 pages. Don't you think you should be more informed? Do you really have an idea whats in that bill? Did you know if you had a family of four and only made 66k a year that you would be required to pay $550 a month(that is a apt or two car payments)? Sure I geuss thats not too bad huh, and yes you will be fined if you don't pay. This is going to be like paying a loan to the government. You better not mess up on this loan.
    Last edited by mrgrim800; 12/15/2009 at 04:58 PM.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgrim800 View Post
    Last thing in general I am not against health care reform. But I am against this healthcare reform bill. The constitution was hand written on four pages. This bill is over 1000 pages. Don't you think you should be more informed? Do you really have an idea whats in that bill? Did you know if you had a family of four and only made 66k a year that you would be required to pay $550 a month(that is a apt or two car payments)? Sure I geuss thats not too bad huh, and yes you will be fined if you don't pay. This is going to be like paying a loan to the government. You better not mess up on this loan.
    Riigggghhhhttttt. You just stay out of the gamma rays and you'll be just fine. Tell me, how many militias do you belong to? Who was behind 9/11?

    Do YOU know how quickly that person making 66K a year will go bankrupt if his daughter gets in an automobile accident and doesn't have insurance? How would you like to tell him that you're really sorry, but you just can't operate on her because she doesn't have insurance? And just how much do you think current employed individuals pay for insurance for a family of four? Or are you just saying they should go without? What ARE you saying? Do you have a clue?

    It is so tiring to deal with people who 1. don't really know anything about what the delivery of health care entails and 2.are paranoid about how everything is going to hell and 3. don't really care as long as Obama fails. Please...prove me wrong on any of those points. Please.

    Oh, and by all means, consider me arrogant. I am quite used to that label, and it doesn't bother me a bit.
  16.    #36  
    These are some of the errors found in this bill:

    SECTION 225 PROVIDER PARTICIPATION

    This section states that Physician salaries will be dictated on an annual basis.

    How can you support taking over the livelihood of all physicians and dictating the terms? This is pure socialism and to call it anything else is disingenuous.

    SECTION 131 REQUIRING FAIR MARKETING PRACTICES BY HEALTH INSURERS

    This section gives the government veto power over advertising by private companies.

    Again this is an example f socialism where the government decides what the public is allowed to be told. How can you support this?

    SECTION 312. EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS EMPLOYEE AND DEPENDENT COVERAGE.

    This Bill mandates employer-paid coverage for part-time employees and families which will be a huge burden for small businesses.

    Overall, the compliance regulations and associated costs for physicians, employers and insurance providers is enormous. Also, random audits are authorized with the full cost of the audit to be paid by the person or entity being audited. Do you support random, costly intrusions into physician’s offices?

    SECTION 1501

    The health commissioner will approve expansion of physician residency training positions with preference being given to primary care and disadvantaged applicants.

    Do you want the best and brightest to be our future doctors or those selected by the government? This section also suggests that specialty positions will not be expanded. This will lead to a diminishing specialist base and a loss in quality care. The obvious intention is to limit specialist care and I think the country needs to be aware of this.

    SECTION 155 SEVERABILITY.

    “If any provision of this Act, or any application of such provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this Act and the application of the provision to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected.”

    Why put this in? Do you think the bill is so radical that you are trying to block the Supreme Court from striking it down?

    Page 124 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue the government on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.

    Page 203 Line 13-15 HC: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Why the deception?

    Page 265 Section 1131: Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC(Health Care) industries.

    Page 268 Section 1141: Government regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

    Page 280 Section 1151: The Government will penalize hospitals for whatever Government deems preventable re-admissions.

    A good medical outcome is never guaranteed! This is a crazy rule and may actually increase costs as hospitals and doctors will be hesitant to release sick patients!

    Page 494-498: Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

    As for the dangers, costs, and failure of electronic communication upon which this bill is dependent on, the following article must be studied: The computerization of Britain’s National Health Service has been an expensive fiasco. Why does Obama want to emulate it?


    No NHS, Please, We're American

    YAY health care!!!

    FYI all these points were taken from a doctor that wrote it in a letter to a senator if you wish to read the full letter here is the link: Doctor Found Serious Problems With Health Care Reform Bill « Quipster
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Riigggghhhhttttt. You just stay out of the gamma rays and you'll be just fine. Tell me, how many militias do you belong to? Who was behind 9/11?

    Do YOU know how quickly that person making 66K a year will go bankrupt if his daughter gets in an automobile accident and doesn't have insurance? How would you like to tell him that you're really sorry, but you just can't operate on her because she doesn't have insurance? And just how much do you think current employed individuals pay for insurance for a family of four? Or are you just saying they should go without? What ARE you saying? Do you have a clue?

    It is so tiring to deal with people who 1. don't really know anything about what the delivery of health care entails and 2.are paranoid about how everything is going to hell and 3. don't really care as long as Obama fails. Please...prove me wrong on any of those points. Please.

    Oh, and by all means, consider me arrogant. I am quite used to that label, and it doesn't bother me a bit.
    Actually under our system right now, a doctor dousn't have to charge them. My father was an orthopedic surgeon and he suffered through hard times in his early life and he only wanted to help people. There are people in this town who have named their children after him because he knew they diddn't have the money and he would tell them ill send you a bill so you know how much my services are worth but if you are not able to pay I understand. You realise with this new system its going to take the heart away from doctors and their work.

    Fallacies do not make you look smart, how about you tell me something I don't know.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgrim800 View Post
    Actually under our system right now, a doctor dousn't have to charge them. My father was an orthopedic surgeon and he suffered through hard times in his early life and he only wanted to help people. There are people in this town who have named their children after him because he knew they diddn't have the money and he would tell them ill send you a bill so you know how much my services are worth but if you are not able to pay I understand. You realise with this new system its going to take the heart away from doctors and their work.

    Fallacies do not make you look smart, how about you tell me something I don't know.
    Thanks for that yarn Opie. So your Health Care fix for the US system is the goodness of your heart?
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep....and that's why computerized medical records (or access to them promptly) could save literally millions of dollars in tests that don't need to be done because they've already been done, or information regarding a patient evaluation that is unnecessary. Everyone in health care knows that. It's a key to lowering costs. And that's why that profound progressive, Newt Gingrich, has been pushing for this kind of system for a number of years now.

    That old lefty Newt
    Your boy thinks differently. Electronic Medical Records Don't Save Money, Says Study
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Thanks for that yarn Opie. So your Health Care fix for the US system is the goodness of your heart?
    I never said I had a fix. All I have said is this Healthcare reform is too much a garbled mess to understand.

    Ironically very close to your yarn to Opie comparison, It honestly gives me the Analogy of yarn>Opie = E. Coli > $H1t when thinking of you.

    I only brought up my father operating on and giving the ability for some to walk, is because if this future Healthcare bill comes to pass and something terrible does happen to a family who can not pay:

    a) (Future Times) - say the family of 66k a month has for whatever reason been late on their monthly payment for 3 months... His daughter gets in a wreck. He is already late on his monthly payments trying to make ends meet. So it should be no surprise he can also not make the deductable. This is money owed to the government, and if you can not pay, what will they do if you owe them money? The government will make you pay.. with either money or time.

    b) (Present Times) Same scenario above, up until the wreck the family takes the daughter to the emergency room, they have no money.... GUESS WHAT?!?! IT IS ILLEGAL TO TURN DOWN MEDICAL AID TO ANYONE ON THE GROUNDS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA; CITIZEN OR NOT! So the daughter gets better the family has a debt and no one is in prison.... Do you see what I'm getting at?

    This whole time yall have been trying to trim my argument down with all the centralized medical system and the defintion of Class II to III posts.. When in reality I have never said one thing being against a centralized medical system. Its time to let me grow or burn me down. Come on people burn me with intelligent posts.
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