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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    I for one am glad to see something like this happen. Of course being for more transparent government is like saying "I like puppies". Its nice to see some movement towards giving the public the information needed so that we can hold our politicians accountable.

    I'm just not looking forward to going stark raving screaming mad when I get to see the extreme wasteful spending (of both parties) in a very clear manner
    Oh right.... that'll happen. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of all what got spent where
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Certainly, when trying to get elected, Obama promised alot. Then ,the reality of politics hit.
    Translation: He lied to get elected. Imagine "reality of politics" hitting a politician!

    Much of which he promised has been blocked or weakened by Republicans--Healthcare for all? No! That's a Nazzi Plan!! Get troops out of Iraq? No, that will mean we're weak! Should we create stronger oversight of Wall Street? No! That goes against the free market!

    I can't wait until we have the Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA debates. The Republicans will trying to block any changes there too.

    So, stop deprecating Obama's inability to keep all his promises, when you also criticize him when we acts to keep his promises.
    hahahaha! You mean the Republicans that are in total minority? The Dems can pass ANYTHING they want, and the Republican's can't stop them.

    Please explain to us exactly what was blocked and by who and when?

    And while you're at it, name one major promise that Obama has kept?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    It's been a year. Before you call him a liar, you need to be realistic about the time in which things move in DC. He's not doing any of this in a vacuum. He's not a dictator who can do anything at will.

    You think McCain/Palin would be "maverick-ing" their way throught DC, if they had won, keeping promises left and right? Now, THAT's a hilarious thought.
    But I thought things moved fast now. What did it take, 10 days to earn the Nobel Peace Prize?
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Dems cannot pass anything they want--many of them come from conservative districts which may revert back to Republicans if they are unhappy. The Dems also depend on Lieberman, who is really a Republican in disguise. The Republicans, of course, will not give an inch--hoping he'll fail so they can gain politically.
    But the Dems CAN pass anything they want. They have the majority in both houses. That's the bottom line. They have the ability, just not the will, primarily for the reason you stated.

    As you have alluded, Democrats are scared that, if they pass everything they want, they will lose their majority. That should be very telling. Their platform is not as overwhelmingly popular as many want to think.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    It's been a year. Before you call him a liar, you need to be realistic about the time in which things move in DC. He's not doing any of this in a vacuum. He's not a dictator who can do anything at will.

    You think McCain/Palin would be "maverick-ing" their way throught DC, if they had won, keeping promises left and right? Now, THAT's a hilarious thought.
    I actually agree. I was never a McCain fan.

    But as for the "It's been a year.", he's a quarter of the way through his term. Bush faced 9/11 in his 9th month.

    Maybe our economy and Afghanistan don't rise to that level of immediacy, but I'd say he could move a bit quicker.... he did run on a platform of change, after all. You can't argue he's for change on the one hand, and "the time it which things move in DC" on the other. Didn't you send him there to change all that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Democrats, unfortunately, don't walk-in-step like Republicans do. Those from conservative districts act more like Republicans. They were elected to change Bush policies. They are scared for the wrong reasons. They think if they vote with the liberals, they might get voted out. The truth is, if they don't pass significant legislation, like health care reform, they will get voted out.

    They were elected to govern. If they don't govern, they should be voted out. That's what happened to Clinton's legislature when they couldn't pass healthcare reform--and the Republicans are banking on it happening again.
    You are describing leaders failing to lead with any thought, vision or conviction. It sounds like they also campaigned or were elected under false pretenses and are not representing themselves (as they portrayed) or their constituents. You are correct, they are not governing or representing and they should not be in a position to lead this country (or state or district), if this is the case and should be voted out.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Dems cannot pass anything they want--many of them come from conservative districts which may revert back to Republicans if they are unhappy. The Dems also depend on Lieberman, who is really a Republican in disguise. The Republicans, of course, will not give an inch--hoping he'll fail so they can gain politically.

    As for the blocking, various aspects of healthcare reform have been blocked--The Public Option is one. Any thought of leaving Iraq and Afghanistan has been blocked--None of this has been by legal manuevering but by mis-information campaigns to get the people scared and confused and call their representatives. "I don't want you killing Granny!"

    As for Obama promises, it's been one year. In that time, he's gotten us out of a deep recession (still a work in progress, admittedly). He's has helped bring healthcare reform further than it has ever come (should conclude by the end of this year). He has put the focus on Afghanistan (as much as I disagree with his assessment, this was one of his promises). There is a focus on climate change. The EPA can now regulate
    CO2. He signed a new hate crimes bill. He's passed the largest middle class tax cut in history by lifting the AMT level. Cap and Trade, DOMA, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, stronger consumer protections are all coming up next.
    Translation: Their constituents don't want what they want and they just happen to be smart enough to see that. They dont want to lose their power so...

    But to Zelgo this makes them better. My dog has more sense.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  8. KAM1138
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Democrats, unfortunately, don't walk-in-step like Republicans do.
    Partially true--they often have to be convinced to vote against their constituents by their Strong-arm leadership tactics and with bribes (all funded by taxpayers) to soothe the anger with someone money they don't have.
    Please. Not in lock step--that's a good fantasy, but in reality--being in "lock-step" if how parties get things done.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Those from conservative districts act more like Republicans.
    Or, in other words...Represent their voters. In reality--they do this when their feet are held to the fire. Otherwise they tow their party line as their leadership demands in "lock step" just as eagerly as anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    They were elected to change Bush policies.
    That's a good one. As if people can even articulate what "Bush policies" are outside of Democrat soundbites. Of course, one they do have a good feel for--reckless spending has been taken to the next level by The Obama administration and this Democrat Congress. See--its ok to spend, if its YOUR party in control. Citizens lose either way.

    This is actually very simple--Democrats capitalized on an unpopular President after declaring everything that occurred during the Bush Presidency to be "a failed Bush policy", despite Democrats holding Congress since the 2006 Elections (which just happens to be when the economy started to tank), and pretending they had no power whatsoever. In reality, Congress has a lot of power, but they depend on the ignorance of their voters, who believe that the President is some sort of king who controls the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    They are scared for the wrong reasons. They think if they vote with the liberals, they might get voted out. The truth is, if they don't pass significant legislation, like health care reform, they will get voted out.
    Interesting--they will only benefit if they do what you want. Not likely. The more likely story is that they will get voted out one way or the other, because they rode into office depending on a wave of blame. This was the entire Democratic strategy--run against a very unpopular, lame duck President mired in two wars and an economic downturn, they could pin on him--no matter if that is accurate or not. It worked great. That's how you get a majority of Democrats elected in a country that remains Center-right, and in Conservative districts.

    Claiming that you are going to maintain conservative voters support by pushing a leftist agenda is...well, that's laughable. No, they are scared for the exact right reasons, but it probably won't matter anyway.

    I know leftists have bought into their own party-line that these last two elections is some sort of change in the electorate, and that liberalism is on the rise, but that's little more than a fantasy. Democrats in 2006 and 2008 got elected for one primary reason--they ran against the most unpopular President...well in a very long time. It is not very likely that will work again, but I'm amused by the continued efforts to blame everything bad on the last Administration while claiming credit for imaginary gains. That will sell GREAT with the voting public.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    They were elected to govern. If they don't govern, they should be voted out. That's what happened to Clinton's legislature when they couldn't pass healthcare reform--and the Republicans are banking on it happening again.
    And that's a pretty good bet. Keep telling yourself that people voted for huge spending and leftist agendas ignoring the voting public, and see where it gets you. This is pretty simple. People voted for Democrats to "make it all better" because that's what they promised in essence. That the economy was simply bad because that horrible George Bush made it so. Well, of course that is sheer stupidity, but worked well for the Democrats. It isn't likely to work that well again, and anyone with any feel for the way the voting public works can see this. Here's why.

    The voters LOVE to blame someone. The Democrats love to blame Republicans, and there was a perfect storm--unpopular president AND an economic "crisis"--it was as good as the Blame-game gets, of course ignoring that Bush wasn't running...those sorts of details are irrelevant.

    In 2010...well, that desire to blame will surely remain unless we've somehow really turned things around (highly unlikely), and while I'm sure the Democrats will try to blame President Bush, and the impotent minority of Republicans, it isn't likely to work. That's one component.

    The other component is the squishy center. These are the folks that the leftists have laughably believed have embraced them. They surely did in 2008, but they are now more likely to swing the other way, because they are just sophisticated enough for the claims Democrats made against Republicans are now reversed. Add in a little failure-to-live-up-to-your-promises anger and Democrats are looking at trouble.

    Your claim that pushing a far-left agenda will keep them in office is not even close. Democrats are desperate to push that agenda--which is hard to undo, BEFORE the voters turn the tables on their blame-game plan. Pelosi (especially) is willing to sacrifice their Moderates, and is willing to bet that the payoff (massive government expansion) will be worth the losses.

    This isn't partisanship--its just an understanding of historical trends in politics and the American voting public. Its really easy to blame the other guy--and that's what got the Democrats elected (and what got Republicans elected in the past...and will again in the future for both parties).

    Back to the Transparency issue. The Obama administration isn't any more transparent than any other, and won't be. They will CLAIM to be, because that's what politicians do--they lie. They simply played their leftist supporters like a fiddle, and apparently there was enough noise to cause them to Re-declare they will do what they never had an intention of doing, didn't do, and won't do whenever it suits them.

    It must be nice to have supporters who are so easily placated however.

    KAM
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    9th month is pretty close to 12th month. What had Bush done in that time? It seems nothing, because we got attacked despite ample warning.
    Oh, you mean all of the warnings that Clinton had and ignored? You're right.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    What is good for the country, or even their constituents, takes a back seat to what their constituents are made to perceive is the issue.
    Face piles of trials with smiles. It riles them to believe that you perceive the wit they weave.

    Oh ok, that was totally random. So sue me!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #31  
    Democrats... Rebublicans... they are all just lying SOBs
  12. KAM1138
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Yes, you're right, the Democrats are terrible; Bush did nothing wrong and left the country in wonderful shape; all Democrats do is blame Bush for the problems they have caused; Republicans are wonderful politicians who are the only ones looking out from all Americans....

    I wish I could see the world as black and white as you do, KAM. I would be so happy---like a child.
    Well, you are making a fool of yourself, by attempting to attribute things to me that I didn't say. I know you think this works, but it really doesn't. Now I have to waste my time, stating what you already should know--that you've fabricated this.

    I didn't say Democrats were terrible. I stated what I thikn they do.
    I didn't say Bush did nothing wrong, nor that the country was in wonderful shape.
    It is true that Democrats blamed President Bush for pretty much everything they could think of, and declared pretty much everything a failures, without regard to how that harmed the country.
    I never said that Republicans are wonderful politicians.

    So, you've got a 25% accuracy rate here, but go ahead--keep on spouting nonsense.

    It is true that I tend to point out the bad things Democrats do, but you'll notice that is almost always in response to someone praising them. If someone incorrectly praised Republicans, then I'd be happy to tell you where I think they are wrong too.

    Since we've posted many times before to each other, I'm sure you will recall that I've not been a particular cheerleader of Republicans, given that I've been disappointed with government behavior in general. Now, people without much to say have of course accused me of being a Republican, or a shill for them or similar silliness.

    The fact is, that I'm pretty disappointed in government in general, and the Republicans to me are useful in one way--to balance off the Democrats. Unfortunately, they've been doing a poor job of it. Democrats are in power and doing things I don't like, hence, I will probably tend to complain about them more. That being said--I've stated many times that I greatly dislike the things that President Bush did in terms of this economic "crisis" as well as the reckless spending that Republicans engaged in.

    However, unlike the people fooled by the Obama campaign, I knew that these things weren't going to go in the direction I wanted (less spending, more responsibility) but the opposite, and of course that was proven true almost immediately.

    So, now I have to contend with people who are cheering an administration that openly lies about what they will do, and then spinkles meaningless promises around to make their robotic base cheer--all the while continuing the same reckless policies that they supposedly were going to change.

    I'm perfectly willing to say that the Bush administration screwed a lot of things up. If only Obama supporters had the same willingness, we might be able to hold our government accountable, instead of just swallowing their pathetic rhetoric at every turn.

    Republicans or Democrats aren't my enemies--bad government is, and we've got plenty of that to go around.

    KAM
  13. KAM1138
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You seem to have forgotten all the strong-arming done by the Republican leadership to get Medicare Part D passed. Three criminal investigations came out of those tactics.
    I never advocated that program, but I haven't really gotten into deep discussions about it either. I never approved of ANY strong-arming.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    "how parties get things done"--with healthcare, the only thing the Republicans are trying to get done is get a political win against Obama. Period.
    No, they are attempting to stop a massive government expansion and likely disaster for the American people. You simply aren't willing to consider the harm that these plans will cause. Of course, you are also seemingly ignoring that Pushing Healthcare reform is highly political, while accusing those of opposing it of being motivated that way. The whole thing is political--obviously...at least to me. Of course the Democrats say they "care" so that makes it all better right?

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So Republicans from Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida are all representing the needs of their states? Their states have 1/4th of their populations uninsured--the highest in the US. They are towing the Republican party-line, not helping their constituents in the least.
    Well, again--you seem to continually believe that YOU define what's best for them. The citizens of those States are responsible for electing people to represent them. YOU do not define whether they want their representatives to support this or not--that's THEIR responsibility.
    You always try to create this nicely packaged (and often false) choice to make what you demand seem like the only choice. That tactic is very transparent to me. Does this actually work on people?


    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    No matter what evidence you're given or who says it, you just call each Bush-related problem (wars, recession, climate change, healthcare) a "Democratic soundbite." The country, however, articulated quite effectively when it voted anyone related to him out.
    Did I? The fact is Democrats followed a very well orchestrated campaign to villify everything President Bush did--from declaring Failure in Iraq (and doing their best to insure it happened--opposing the surge for example) to attacking him personally, to placing all blame (including their own) for anything bad that happened on him. The voters certainly did buy into this--doesn't mean it was true or honest or accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Yet you blame Obama for the economy...
    Did I? Can you point out what you are referring to, because my position has remained consistent, or are you just putting words in my mouth again. That is simply that the government can do a lot of harm to the economy, but that the President isn't in control of it. That's the lie democrats depend on.

    President Obama surely didn't cause the Recession, but of course neither did President Bush. What President Obama is guilty of in my view is sham solutions to help the economy recover. The stimulus package is a horrible joke that WILL definitively create economic harm (massive debt, and devaluing the US dollar further), and isn't doing much good at all, except for some artificial inflation of 3rd Quarter GDP (direct government spending). It isn't creating jobs, and they are falling over themselves trying to falsify justifications to claim it is.
    This massive pork-barrel orgy of spending that included very few stimulative elements is in fact very harmful. So, Congressional Democrats, and President Obama are responsible for harming the economy further (longer term), and failing to act in a way that could have alleviated the harm the government does to the economy--with their reckless spending and such.

    President Obama is also attempting to cause the Economy great harm by saddling the citizens with unsustainable costs from this Healthcare "reform" as well as Cap and Trade, which will undoubtedly harm the economy's ability to recover. So, in short--President Obama isn't the CAUSE of the recession, but he is threatening to do things that will harm the economy, all the while whining about jobs.

    So, while I do not believe that any President is responsible for the economy, government (which includes the President) certainly can and does many things to harm the economy. Blanket statements that blame the President for the Economy are simplistic propaganda tools of the left typically--not something I can really agree with.


    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Like Bush, after 8 years in office, had nothing to do with those two wars and the recession.
    Well, obviously he had something to do with two wars. Who claimed otherwise? If you bothered to read, I said "accurate or not" which would tell you that in fact President Bush is responsible for some things. What I'm saying is that the simpletons accusations that the Democrats depend on--to appeal to their voters is to just declare (nearly) everything he did a problem or a failure or bad for America. They did their best to attack President Bush in every way possible for his entire Presidency (excepting after 9/11 for most), and then they whine about how people are trying to "Destroy the President" in reference to Obama. Such rich hypocrisy is so disgusting.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Reagan got elected because Carter was unpopular. Bush II got "elected" because of Clinton's affair.
    Oversimplifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Bush administration blamed 9/11 on Clinton and claimed credit for not having any more terrorist attacks in America. We, by the way, also didn't have any Martian invasions either.
    Not really. The Bush administration was very mild in their blame regarding Clinton and 9/11. They didn't roll out the "We inherited this" at every turn, like the pathetic cowards in the Obama administration do. Obviously, as I've stated--every President takes over for the last, but the Obama campaign used this as a central point and continue to rely on it as an excuse. Everything bad is due to their "inherited problems" and everything good is due to their brilliant "change." Apparently this grade-school blame game is something that works for their supporters, but to me--it is just a big red flag that tells me how endangered we are with these amateurs in charge of our Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    ...but Republicans don't like blaming Democrats...?
    Of course they do. They just aren't very good at it. They don't have a willing lap-dog media that is happy to parrot their propaganda. Democrats have little else to run on it seems. The entire Obama campaign was based around running against George Bush--and you little "me too" supporters demonstrate that every day. They succeeded in convincing the public of one of the biggest lies there is--that McCain would have been a third Bush term. This is so laughable that I can't even begin to understand how someone could be so stupid as to believe this, but apparently it worked.

    Obama supporters swallowed this campaign whole and keep on chattering about how horrible George Bush is--even almost a year after he's been out of office. Its as if you've got nothing else to say...and you probably don't.

    How else do you think that Democrats have ANY chance of getting elected in a country with a Center-right alignment, where twice as many people identify themselves as conservative as liberal. You all imagine there is a big sweeping change in the American attitude--that they are embracing liberalism. Most any poll demonstrates that is incorrect--when you ask them about what they actually want--it isn't what the Democrats are. Simply, Democrats are the superior politicians--they know how to make their opponents look worse than they do, and have the vast majority of the media supporting them in that goal. Otherwise, they've got nothing other than their special interests, labor/trade supporters (which is still dwindling), trial lawyers, teachers unions, and some elitist urbanites.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Please name some recent Republican politicians who have lied....
    Why would I waste my time with this. A lot of them lie, to varying degrees--they are politicians.

    KAM
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The Dems cannot pass anything they want--many of them come from conservative districts which may revert back to Republicans if they are unhappy. The Dems also depend on Lieberman, who is really a Republican in disguise. The Republicans, of course, will not give an inch--hoping he'll fail so they can gain politically.

    As for the blocking, various aspects of healthcare reform have been blocked--The Public Option is one.
    Not by Republicans. They don't have the votes to block anything... for the moment.
    Any thought of leaving Iraq and Afghanistan has been blocked--None of this has been by legal manuevering but by mis-information campaigns to get the people scared and confused and call their representatives. "I don't want you killing Granny!"
    Is this the same Afghanistan that Obama declared he'd commit to refocusing and winning while he was campaining?
    As for Obama promises, it's been one year. In that time, he's gotten us out of a deep recession (still a work in progress, admittedly).
    That's an admission? Try admitting that its just as bad as when he started. I know... not his fault... lagging indicators... blah blah blah...
    He's has helped bring healthcare reform further than it has ever come (should conclude by the end of this year).
    Huh? It actually has lower approval now than Hillarycare. Just stating wishful thoughts do not make them come true.
    He has put the focus on Afghanistan (as much as I disagree with his assessment, this was one of his promises). There is a focus on climate change. The EPA can now regulate
    CO2.
    Which I've been told may not be constitutional, and will be challenged in courts
    He signed a new hate crimes bill.
    Another laughable concept. Murder is murder. Hate crime legislation is nothing more than mind policing. You want mind police?
    He's passed the largest middle class tax cut in history by lifting the AMT level.
    OMG, what spin! tax cut? what?!? This should be all over the news!
    Cap and Trade, DOMA, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, stronger consumer protections are all coming up next.
    I can't wait.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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