View Poll Results: Do you approve of Obama's speech on Afghanistan?

Voters
45. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, and it's about time he stepped up to the plate, dang it!

    12 26.67%
  • No, we must pull out of Afghanistan immediately!

    11 24.44%
  • It was pure politics, sends the wrong message, and we're in big trouble!

    19 42.22%
  • We're fighting in Afghanistan?

    3 6.67%
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Results 41 to 57 of 57
  1. #41  
    BARYE!! It's really good to see you back!! Where've you been? How's life in the cave? Hopefully all's been well for you.

    I feel that propaganda machine from all sides are in business. It's so rare that I read what I feel is true, unpropagandized, news. That said, it appears to me that the propaganda injected by the far left seems so much more prevalent and colorful. It can really be sickening sometimes, to me anyway, reading a news article, and having to spend so much time rejecting the newswriter's opinion just to get the 2% of the story that may be fact.

    It's kinda the same with radio. I watch a little television news, but spend the majority of my time listening to talk radio. I've always tried to listen to all sides, but for the past few years I've been unable to find anything resembling leftist, liberal radio shows where I live. They're all gone. And I can see why. Most were a pain in the *** to listen to. But then there is internet streaming radio. So I still spend almost half my life with this pain in my ***. But I gotta do it to hear all sides.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    It shows someone skeptical, engaged, and intellectually curious. It also shows someone unconstrained by ideology -- someone leading a team that understood that they had been dealt a horrific hand, but that they had no choice but to play what cards they received as intelligently as possible. They weigh the complexities -- understand the multi-dimensional aspects of the problem: Pakistan, the limping american economy, the corruption and ineffectualness of Karzai and his government...
    How did you arrive at the above conclusions? The way the article reads, to me, even if someone with no pre-conceived notions reads it, they would arrive to some of the same conclusion as you did (if they didn't discard the color injected by the writer).
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    How did you arrive at the above conclusions? The way the article reads, to me, even if someone with no pre-conceived notions reads it, they would arrive to some of the same conclusion as you did (if they didn't discard the color injected by the writer).
    no doubt the writer of that lengthy article has a favorable view of Obama and the methods he used to find a way through the nightmare that’s Afghanistan now.

    I concede that the article reflects a sympathetic (but factual) spin of the events that the writer personally observed or was told about. In as much as the article contains facts -- actual events -- its hard to attack it as misleading or propagandistic.

    Would a faux news reporter (or a crystal, rush, or beck) have written similarly, if they had received the same access ?? Obviously not.

    We all expect faux (et al) to take any Obama policy pronouncement, any utterance -- and spin it into something unrecognizable and false. Its what their audience expects and demands.

    But no matter their personal inclinations, a publication like the NYTimes makes great effort attempting to present facts in as neutral and non-prejusticed a way as possible.

    I would argue that it was this desire on the part of the NYTimes (and other main stream media) to be neutral that was taken advantage of by junior and company in the lead up to their invented war. The NYTimes felt constrained to report without comment almost everything junior rumsfelt cheney said. They shrewdly used the NYTimes and other media like stenographers -- as pipelines to get their lies out to the american people.

    There is tremendous potential value for democracy both in the neutral reportage of facts, and in the unbiased informed analysis of facts.

    In the lead up to the Iraq disaster, there was almost no resistance in the media. (As you might recall, there was none even in congress. junior cleverly waited until just before the congressional elections to demagogue those that resisted him on going to war in Iraq. Spineless democrats gave him the majority for his Iraq war resolution.)

    The internet age is bringing us an entirely new information landscape -- one that has become molecularized -- one in which people naturally seek information that conforms to and reinforces their own biases, one that confirms rather than challenges their ignorance.

    This is the product of a disassembled free market -- of companies in pursuit of ratings, eager to give their audiences what they want so they will reliably watch or listen.

    Talk radio -- (particularly the demagogic rightwing nuts: hanity, o'reilly, beck, & rush) encapsulates the worst features of this trend. All "information" is bent for the purpose of reenforcing their audience's POV, that audience's sense of grievance.

    Sadly I think this trend bodes ill for a progressive intelligent future of america. More sadly, I fear that Obama's triumph will be hard to repeat.
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/09/2009 at 11:31 AM.
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    BARYE!! It's really good to see you back!! Where've you been? How's life in the cave? Hopefully all's been well for you.

    Ah Sblanter -- you alone it seems, have noticed BARYE’s absence.

    Perhaps after a decent interval, after I have had a chance to recover and recuperate, BARYE will recount the horrors of his capture, rendition, and escape from his secret confinement in a CIA controlled zoo somewhere in Europe...
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    ...This is the product of a disassembled free market -- of companies in pursuit of rating, eager to give their audiences what they want so they will reliably watch or listen.

    Talk radio -- (particularly the demagogic rightwing nuts: hanity, o'reilly, beck, & rush) encapsulates the worst features of this trend. All "information" is bent for the purpose of reenforcing their audience's POV, that audience's sense of grievance...
    I meant to add the following:


    Internet based media, blogs, etc. (from the left as well as the right) similarly succeed by reenforcing and supporting their constituencies' native biases and prejustices.

    The molecularation of pre-bent information and analysis prepared and distilled for existing niche audiences has the potential to further alienate the people who populate america from each other -- and from finding constructive non-winner take all, solutions.

    Its hard to imagine the world view of "tea baggers" and Obama accolytes finding common ground and compromise -- they simply no longer see the world with enough shared knowledge. Its getting harder for there to be a common repository of respected neutral "facts".

    Collectively these trends cause me worry about the future of america.

    I admire your effort Sblanter to actively pursue alternative points of view. Your search for lefty talk radio (even internet based) is clearly a Quixotian task. But you are, I suspect, more the exception than the rule.
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  6. #46  
    why is this being discussed on precentral? shouldnt this be discussed on some political site?....just saying...
  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by pottyvick View Post
    why is this being discussed on precentral? shouldnt this be discussed on some political site?....just saying...
    It's an off-topic "topic" that's posted in the "off-topic" forum
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Perhaps after a decent interval, after I have had a chance to recover and recuperate, BARYE will recount the horrors of his capture, rendition, and escape from his secret confinement in a CIA controlled zoo somewhere in Europe...
    OMG!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I concede that the article reflects a sympathetic (but factual) spin of the events that the writer personally observed or was told about. In as much as the article contains facts -- actual events -- its hard to attack it as misleading or propagandistic.
    But, to me, it is easy. They should never inject their opinions. And if a part of it was something that was told to them, they should specifiy as such, complete with names or specifying anonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Would a faux news reporter (or a crystal, rush, or beck) have written similarly, if they had received the same access ?? Obviously not.
    Not sure, but I don't think any of the individuals noted do the news.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    But no matter their personal inclinations, a publication like the NYTimes makes great effort attempting to present facts in as neutral and non-prejusticed a way as possible.
    I have to say, I've been reading the NYT routinely for a decade, and I can't really agree with that statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The internet age is bringing us an entirely new information landscape -- one that has become molecularized -- one in which people naturally seek information that conforms to and reinforces their own biases, one that confirms rather than challenges their ignorance.
    True to an extent. I think it goes back a little farther than the internet. May be a little more prevalant issue nowadays, though. It encourages me to see that you listen to "the other side" as you mention above. I do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    This is the product of a disassembled free market -- of companies in pursuit of ratings, eager to give their audiences what they want so they will reliably watch or listen.
    Not sure about the disassembeld free market part, but I think as long as I've been alive, ratings have always been an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Talk radio -- (particularly the demagogic rightwing nuts: hanity, o'reilly, beck, & rush) encapsulates the worst features of this trend. All "information" is bent for the purpose of reenforcing their audience's POV, that audience's sense of grievance.
    Pretty much the same, if not more prevalent, from the left wingnuts. In either case, you gotta dissect what you hear to glean the relevant "facts".

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Sadly I think this trend bodes ill for a progressive intelligent future of america.
    Folks need to quit believing, at face value, everything they read/hear, get info from wherever they can, and ANALYZE it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    More sadly, I fear that Obama's triumph will be hard to repeat.
    Not sure what this means.
  10. #50  
    My last post was a response before I read this one (I tend to read oldest first).

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I meant to add the following:

    Internet based media, blogs, etc. (from the left as well as the right) similarly succeed by reenforcing and supporting their constituencies' native biases and prejustices.

    The molecularation of pre-bent information and analysis prepared and distilled for existing niche audiences has the potential to further alienate the people who populate america from each other -- and from finding constructive non-winner take all, solutions.
    Agree to this to a certain extent. It's still up to the individual to avoid the attraction. Most don't (at least as far as I can see).

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Its hard to imagine the world view of "tea baggers" and Obama accolytes finding common ground and compromise -- they simply no longer see the world with enough shared knowledge. Its getting harder for there to be a common repository of respected neutral "facts".
    Glad to see you quoted "teabaggers".

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Collectively these trends cause me worry about the future of america.
    Agree!
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Agree to this to a certain extent. It's still up to the individual to avoid the attraction. Most don't (at least as far as I can see).
    Its the nature of humans, sadly. Most people actively push away knowledge that challenges or contradicts their preconceptions.

    As I've said before, talk radio succeeds most when it reenforces the listener's world view, and justifies their sense of grievance. To me talk radio is the intellectual equivalent of greasy fast food.

    Glad to see you quoted "teabaggers".
    Am I to infer that you view them skeptically ?? Would you characterize them as an ignorant, dangerous, and easily manipulated mob ?? (do you support them ??)

    Agree!
    cool -- I think we both see the potential danger, though we come to this from opposite sides ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/10/2009 at 09:48 PM.
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Ah Sblanter -- you alone it seems, have noticed BARYE’s absence.

    Perhaps after a decent interval, after I have had a chance to recover and recuperate, BARYE will recount the horrors of his capture, rendition, and escape from his secret confinement in a CIA controlled zoo somewhere in Europe...
    I must admit, I came to visit the hallowed grounds of Off Topic-topia after prolonged absence specifically because I saw that one Barye (who, as my avatar has memorialized, on one occasion found one of my posts worthy) was listed as the last poster in one of her threads.

    Yes, that was one sentence.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ...Collectively these trends cause me worry about the future of america...
    it's an appropriate concern. Once people are divided, all that remains is for them to be conquered.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I must admit, I came to visit the hallowed grounds of Off Topic-topia after prolonged absence specifically because I saw that one Barye (who, as my avatar has memorialized, on one occasion found one of my posts worthy) was listed as the last poster in one of her threads.

    Yes, that was one sentence.
    were it not for the fur now covering BARYE's face, a tear could be seen crawling down his cheek ...

    (the jailers at the CIA run zoo where BAYRE was confined, denied him access to a razor)
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/10/2009 at 12:05 PM.
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's an off-topic "topic" that's posted in the "off-topic" forum
    And moderated by fantastic "off topic" Moderators.
    Just call me Berd.
  16. #56  
    Wait. Off Topic is ....moderated? When did that start?
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm sure that most of you either watched Obama's speech last night, or have caught the essence of it's content through the tidbits/spin in the news.

    Do you feel that his approach and strategy is sound and structured for winning this war on the Al Queda and the Taliban?

    I was pretty underwelmed by it, personally. I felt it was purely calculated as a political speech, not a strategy speech you'd expect from the "Commander in Chief". Why else would he tell the world that we'll be starting to pull out in 18 months?

    I don't think I've heard any talking head, on the left or right, happy or supportive of his speech.

    Sad, but I think that last night was a defining moment of the Obama presidency.
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