View Poll Results: Do you approve of Obama's speech on Afghanistan?

Voters
45. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, and it's about time he stepped up to the plate, dang it!

    12 26.67%
  • No, we must pull out of Afghanistan immediately!

    11 24.44%
  • It was pure politics, sends the wrong message, and we're in big trouble!

    19 42.22%
  • We're fighting in Afghanistan?

    3 6.67%
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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    First, he is rightly putting pressure on Pakistan to help out the situation.
    So I guess its a good thing that we send our drones into a sovereign nation (Pakistan) and bomb them because we believe the mythical Taliban is hiding there?

    This has nothing to do with the Taliban, Afganistan, Pakistan Al Queda etc...

    Stop your dependence on Faux news or the CNN (Clinton News Network) or the Rachel Madow (alternative lifestyle network) MSNBC...

    Look for independent news sources and make informed decisions. We have no business anywhere in the middle east or Europe for that matter. Thomas Jefferson warned us that this would happen. JFK was another.
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Private channels could have been used to communicate these deadlines, and numerous ways to apply pressure without publicly broadcasting war plans. I think you may be over-estimating the level at which John Q. Public's opinion could influence or drive Afghanistan's or Pakistan's policy.

    I have no issue with the 18 month goal, if it's an achieveable goal that is. I just think that broadcasting to the enemy our exit date is a huge tactical error. It may prove to be a very very costly mistake.
    The public harping on the Afghan Central gov and Pakistan serves a very important purpose. It's saying to them, and in front of the World Community, "We're taking one last shot at addressing the people/causes of 9-11. Yea, we know we had the entire World in favor of our efforts when we first entered Afghanistan and that we took our eye off the goal while giving the World's support a good smack in the face. But we're going to take another shot and Karzai & Pakistan, you have to pull your weight because this offer of help has a time limit."
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by notaphonegeek View Post
    We have no business anywhere in the middle east or Europe for that matter. Thomas Jefferson warned us that this would happen. JFK was another.
    Um yea. I fully supported the US going into Afghanistan to root out Al Queda after 9-11 and so did the World. The Taliban had a choice as the ruling thuggery of the moment (our fault? yes) to turn over Al Qaeda and bin Laden and refused to do so.
  4. #24  
    Are you still sleeping? 911? They hate us because were free right? This is why there is no difference between the two parties... Misdirection at it's best. By the way, there has been no evidence provided that Al Queda or the Taliban attacked us. In fact the pilots were trained to fly here. How come the 30 VIDEO cameras of the attack on the pentagon hasn't been released? The video is there, they admit they have it. Do you not want to see it?
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by notaphonegeek View Post
    How come the 30 VIDEO cameras of the attack on the pentagon hasn't been released? The video is there, they admit they have it. Do you not want to see it?
    No, not really. When I want to indulge in fictional stories of the Illuminati working secretly with the Masons to run our country from the shadows, I just read Dan Brown.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    No, not really. When I want to indulge in fictional stories of the Illuminati working secretly with the Masons to run our country from the shadows, I just read Dan Brown.
    Though secret societies are real, they had nothing to do with 911 from my research.
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Um yea. I fully supported the US going into Afghanistan to root out Al Queda after 9-11 and so did the World.
    The world? really? Do me a favor and research the topic. The World didn't support us invading Afganistan, roughly a third of the UN did, but most opted out of the vote or voted against it. Even less supported the Iraq farce. None of the non-UN Nations supported the Afganistan invasion. Hardly "The World". But I will have to leave this discussion before I hijack the thread with facts.
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by notaphonegeek View Post
    before I hijack the thread with facts.
    From what I've read here, there's very little chance of that.

  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Um yea. I fully supported the US going into Afghanistan to root out Al Queda after 9-11 and so did the World. The Taliban had a choice as the ruling thuggery of the moment (our fault? yes) to turn over Al Qaeda and bin Laden and refused to do so.
    Did you actually just say that the Taliban was our fault, or am I misreading?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Did you actually just say that the Taliban was our fault, or am I misreading?
    We used these fighters to fight the Russians indirectly, trained them, armed them, empowered them, then left a broken country to them.

    Charlie Wilson could elaborate further if you need.

    This is by no means a statement for condoning their behavior, it just wasn't a surprise to anyone.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    We used these fighters to fight the Russians indirectly, trained them, armed them, empowered them, then left a broken country to them.

    Charlie Wilson could elaborate further if you need.

    This is by no means a statement for condoning their behavior, it just wasn't a surprise to anyone.
    yup to all that.

    I recommend a thread from a year ago that goes into some depth in regards to the history there:

    "What's the plan, Stan ?? The Pakistan Afghanistan paradox & Charlie Wilson's legacy"

    (a thread wierdly only viewable in a mobile version unfortunately).

    There were 4 great American blunders in regard to Afghanistan --

    1. Reagan supporting the islamic fundamentalists in their war against the Russians -- fundamentalists that included Bin Laden and company

    2. Reagan and Bush1 abandoning the Afghans after the Russians left. Modest intelligent economic help and political support could have bent the climate in Afghanistan toward moderation, progress, and peace. The government left behind was tolerant of women, progressive, and much more popular than any government before or since (especially Karzai). Instead those administrations continued to support the Pakistani ISI's efforts to overthrow that government (the one left behind after the russians left). They supported the islamic fundamentalists and warlords who destroyed Afghanistan. This lead directly to the rise of the Taliban and the creation of international islamic terrorism.

    3. junior's (and Rumsfeld's) stopping of a planned assualt by our forces on Bin Laden at Tora Bora. His pulling back of our troops when they were about to capture Bin Laden will be long remembered as amongst the greatest blunders in american history.

    4. (A blunder that is likely only topped by) junior's mindless catastrophic invaison of Iraq. Not only did he contrive to invent a war when no justifiable pretext existed -- he then transferred all the resources required for Afghanistan to that trillion dollar Iraqi sesspool.

    Starved of manpower, intelligence, economic development, and political assistance -- junior transformed an Afghan miracle into the Taliban resurgence that Obama is now forced to deal with.
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/04/2009 at 05:51 PM.
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  12. #32  
    Isn't this a forum for issue with the Pre? Go to a political forum for these subjects. I personally don't want to here anything about that *****.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It was actually meant to be slightly humorous...
    NOTHING about war should be humorous! Now I need to go get my military gear in order.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by stiggyc View Post
    Isn't this a forum for issue with the Pre? Go to a political forum for these subjects. I personally don't want to here anything about that *****.
    Welcome to Off Topic, where folks discuss things that are...well...off-topic.
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  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #35  
    RealClearPolitics - George Will: This Will Not End Well

    Many Democrats, who think the $787 billion stimulus was too small and want another one (but by another name), are flinching from the $30 billion one-year cost of the Afghan surge. Considering that the GM and GMAC bailouts ($63 billion) are five times bigger than Afghanistan's GDP ($12 billion), Democrats seem to be selective worriers about deficits. Of course, their real worry is how to wriggle out of their endorsement of the "necessary" war in Afghanistan, which was a merely tactical endorsement intended to disparage the "war of choice" in Iraq.

    ...

    George Orwell said the quickest way to end a war is to lose it. But Obama's half-hearted embrace of a half-baked nonstrategy -- briefly feinting toward the Taliban (or al-Qaeda, or a "syndicate of terror") while lunging for the exit ramp -- makes a protracted loss probable.
    Rep. Woolsey: Majority Of Dems Will Vote Against War*Funding - Real Clear Politics – TIME.com

    "I believe that the majority of Democrats are going to vote against funding for an escalation in Afghanistan," Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.) told RealClearPolitics in an interview last night following Obama's speech at West Point.

    ...

    Woolsey said she does not support taxing Americans for a war they do not support. Polls in the last two months have shown support for increasing troop levels in Afghanistan below 50 percent, and a Gallup survey released yesterday found Obama's approval rating on his handling of Afghanistan at 35 percent -- down 21 points since July.
    Of course, it doesn't bode well for the president if he's leading the enemy into battle. Question: if West Point leadership is his enemy, and his allies in congress won't give him any more money, how exactly will this war be won?
    Last edited by groovy; 12/04/2009 at 09:38 PM.
  16. #36  
    Regardless of anyone's opinion on Obama's decision, I think that this NYTimes article gives some interesting insights into the decision-making process:

    NYT: Turning point for surge decision - The New York Times- msnbc.com
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Regardless of anyone's opinion on Obama's decision, I think that this NYTimes article gives some interesting insights into the decision-making process:

    NYT: Turning point for surge decision - The New York Times- msnbc.com
    I hope the Afgan gov't takes the 2011 date seriously and work hard between now and then to get a proper gov't/army/police in order.
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  18. groovy's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    We're heading into the 7th year of war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Can we now openly admit that we are getting our butts kicked?
    Feel free. Thanks to our outstanding military, this is a free country and you can say whatever you like--no matter how inaccurate.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Regardless of anyone's opinion on Obama's decision, I think that this NYTimes article gives some interesting insights into the decision-making process:

    NYT: Turning point for surge decision - The New York Times- msnbc.com
    Looked to me like this article should've been from the Opinion or Editorial section. Maybe it was; I didn't see it. Some apparent facts peppered with an abundance of propaganda.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    Looked to me like this article should've been from the Opinion or Editorial section. Maybe it was; I didn't see it. Some apparent facts peppered with an abundance of propaganda.
    Were you as outraged by the completely uncritical coverage leading up to junior's contrived war, his prancing about that aircraft carrier posing in a flight suit under his "Mission Accomplished" banner ?? Were you as offended by his endless ranch vacations, and the media's idolatrous coverage of his "clearing of brush" ??

    Before the war the NYTimes, the Washington Post, and most of the Main Stream Media covered junior's, rumsfeld's, and cheney's pronouncements in regard to the "grave threat" presented by Saddamm like stenographers. Bob Woodward -- the guy who co-broke the Watergate scandal -- wrote a book about junior's preparations for his contrived war that sounded like the squealings of a school girl at a Jonas Brothers concert.

    Were you as outraged by all that "propaganda" ??

    The referenced NYT's article describes Obama's work toward finding some strategy in Afghanistan that has at least a potential for success. It shows someone skeptical, engaged, and intellectually curious. It also shows someone unconstrained by ideology -- someone leading a team that understood that they had been dealt a horrific hand, but that they had no choice but to play what cards they received as intelligently as possible. They weigh the complexities -- understand the multi-dimensional aspects of the problem: Pakistan, the limping american economy, the corruption and ineffectualness of Karzai and his government...

    What is your complaint about that article -- that it does not accurately reflect those discussions and meetings that brought about their Afghan strategy ??

    Or is it that it does not condemn and mock Obama for the Afghan strategy that those meetings produced ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/09/2009 at 04:54 AM.
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