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  1.    #1  
    its been a year since 10 Moslem boys came ashore on a hijacked fishing boat to murder and maim hundreds of Indian and foreign innocents.

    The horror of it is portrayed in excruciating and weirdly intimate detail in a documentary being shown now on HBO (“Terror in Mumbai”).

    Though the Indian authorities reaction to this terror odyssey was largely an incompetent tragic travesty, they did somehow cleverly insert into the terror network compromised prepaid calling cards -- cards that were then activated and used by the terrorists during this attack. These calling cards enabled phone calls made by the terrorists and their supervisors to be monitored and recorded by intelligence agencies. The HBO documentary is constructed in large part of a chilling mosaic of these intimate conversations overlaid onto video and images captured by some of the dozens of security cameras that observed the scenes of their depravity.

    Islam is not unique in glorifying and using suicide “heroism”.

    Japanese Shinto, Tamil Tiger Hindus, and Viet Cong communists have also done so. Desperate actions were justified, forced, and rationalized by desperate conditions.

    Their targets though were mostly (though not entirely) military -- not non-combatant civilians.

    In the same vein (i.e. military targets), Islamic Iran used Shiite child minesweepers during its early 80's war with Saddam. (children literally walked across Saddam's minefields to clear them for soldiers).

    In '83 Lebanon's Shiites (with Iran's support) devastatingly employed a suicide warrior in their attack on the 300 Marines Reagan idiotically deployed and left exposed at Beirut's airport barracks.

    Palestinians began the transformation of suicide warrior into a vehicle targetted almost exclusively at terrorizing civilian non-combatants. (in part influenced by the "Japanese Red Army" who killed 26 in an attack on an Israeli airport in '72 -- an attack which preceeded the Munich Olympic atrocity by 3 months).

    The Mumbai documentary uses the conversations of the terrorists along with an interrogation interview with the only survivor of the assault to narrate in almost intimate detail the methodical horror of the attack.

    We listen in to the cold blooded leader of this terror expedition as he over the phone instructs his “warriors” to kill as many innocents as possible.

    That naive and ignorant religious fanatics could be persuaded of the rectitude and piousness of evil was not what I found so overwhelming and disturbing (afterall, similar examples of ignorance and idiocy happen often enough even in america). What left me bereft of understanding was the heartless way that this sophisticated leader calmly talked to their captured hostages -- shortly prior to repeatedly ordering that they be murdered. And repeatedly was what was required -- because these otherwise gullible and unthinking killers had over time become sympathetic to their prisoners and stalled several times after they were commanded to execute them.

    In english this sophisticated western educated leader comforted and reassured the captives over the phone -- as he persuaded them to make a plea to their governments to save their lives. They would be safe and well cared for -- and soon home with their families, he reassured them.

    Then in Pashtun he told his minions to kill them.

    Killing in self-defense, in anger, in revenge, in pursuit of justice, in war -- all these things I understand. I can even to some extent understand the mindset of a crazed pathological killer.

    What entirely escapes my grasp though, is how a rational intelligent person with education and experience can deliberately set out to kill innocent non-combatants.

    Perhaps there is within Islam’s DNA I fear, an organic gene of violence and antipathy for non-moslems. A gene with its origins during Islam's earliest sproutings in the deserts of Arabia. A gene that at its core believed absolutely in the propriety of the concept of convert or kill (with the ironic exception of Jews, who were spared). That non-believers are unworthy of compassion or empathy.

    Yet paradoxically Islam is also a precept that simultaneously can inspire exceptional kindness and compassion toward strangers -- even nonbelievers -- sometimes by the same men who might at other times behave as savages.

    As I watched this documentary on the murders in Mumbai, I could not but ask myself why is it that almost all terror attacks against civilians around the world: England, Spain, Kenya, Israel, Pakistan, Iraq, Argentina, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Thailand, India... are carried out by Moslems ??

    Perhaps someone smarter than BARYE could explain it better...



    (BTW -- terror as a tool in the quiver of war is not exclusively the province of Moslems. It was widely employed in North America by both sides of the century long conquest of the west from the Native Americans -- both sides deliberately killed innocent non-combatants in an effort to intimidate or subjugate their adversaries.)
    Last edited by BARYE; 01/17/2010 at 10:10 AM.
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  2. jewel's Avatar
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    This kind of intelligent brutality is not exclusive to Islam or any other religion or humanist ideology. More people died under ****** and Stalin, and these men are rational atheists. How about Dr. Mengele's experiments? The obvious problem is that man is intrinsically evil. The sad truth however is that modern man does not accept the doctrine of sin. And who listens to Christianity anyway?
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    This kind of intelligent brutality is not exclusive to Islam or any other religion or humanist ideology. More people died under ****** and Stalin, and these men are rational atheists. How about Dr. Mengele's experiments? The obvious problem is that man is intrinsically evil. The sad truth however is that modern man does not accept the doctrine of sin. And who listens to Christianity anyway?
    you're quite right -- intelligent rationalized brutality is very much not an exclusive Islamic possession.

    There is though, some nuance to the evil as practiced by Stalin, Pol Pot, ******, and Mao -- a nuance worth noting I think.

    Their ideology of evil -- and the terror that flowed from it as implemented by their acolytes -- was the product singular megamaniacal leaders. Their ideologies ("religions") did not survive their passings.

    Islam is a faith on the other hand, that has proven to be for generations a source of comfort, community, and stability for millions.

    That it has within it though this potential gene of violence, of justification for the murder of "non-believers" -- this is something which distinguishes it from modern western thought.

    (btw -- I acknowledge that christians thought themselves justified in massacring moslems and jews during the crusades, medieval times, and later ...)
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  4. Micael's Avatar
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    It's about control and greed. That's the common thread. The rest of it is just window dressing...
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's about control and greed. That's the common thread. The rest of it is just window dressing...
    Whose control -- whose greed ??

    Fear of the west's control, fear of the west's greed ??

    Perhaps you are justifying the understandable fear that poor devout moslems have for the effect that global cultures and morals are having on their vulnerable "backward" societies.

    Perhaps you are saying that what their leaders want is control over the minds and beliefs of their people -- and most of all their women.

    Perhaps you are saying that as poor, militarily weak societies -- its understandable and apropriate for them to employ terror and murder as weapons. That they are engaged in a war with rich, powerful nations -- against militaries, MacDonalds, and Maddonna...

    When the weak are forced to assymetrically face off against the strong, are the weak not justified in using any means available to accomplish their objectives ? If Partisans killed german civilians in WW2, would that be terrorism as well ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/01/2009 at 04:39 PM.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Whose control -- whose greed ??

    Fear of the west's control, fear of the west's greed ??

    Perhaps you are justifying the understandable fear that poor devout moslems have for the effect that global cultures and morals are having on their vulnerable "backward" societies.

    Perhaps you are saying that what their leaders want is control over the minds and beliefs of their people -- and most of all their women.

    Perhaps you are saying that as poor, militarily weak societies -- its understandable and apropriate for them to employ terror and murder as weapons. That they are engaged in a war with rich, powerful nations, against, armies, MacDonalds, and Maddonna...

    When the weak are forced to assymetrically face off against the strong, are the weak not justified in using any means available to accomplish their objectives ? If Partisans killed german civilians in WW2, would that be terrorism as well ??
    I said nothing about fear. It's use is employed, of course, by those that quest for power and control (the root of which is greed), to manipulate their pawns. You're a romantic, and you're fantasizing. This is not some david and goliath story... the weak standing up against the strong. Where does that idealism come from?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I said nothing about fear. It's use is employed, of course, by those that quest for power and control (the root of which is greed), to manipulate their pawns. You're a romantic, and you're fantasizing. This is not some david and goliath story... the weak standing up against the strong. Where does that idealism come from?
    No -- I don't romantisize terror. I don't justify the murder of innocents.

    I do though, want to understand those that practice it -- those who see themselves not as villians, not as blood thirsty monsters, but as heroic warriors destined to be feted with 72 virgins in heaven.

    Without the imagination to understand your enemy, its unlikely you'll have strength to defeat them.

    Does anyone remember the speech Col. Kurtz (Marlon Brando) gave regarding terror near the end of Apocolypse Now ??
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  8.    #8  
    5 american Moslem men were arrested yesterday in Pakistan -- apparently intent on joining jihad on behalf of the group responsible for the Mumbai massacre, or al Qaeda.


    5 U.S. Men Arrested in Pakistan Said to Plan Jihad Training

    SARGODHA, Pakistan — Five young Muslim American men arrested here Wednesday were on their way to the heart of the Taliban sanctuary in Pakistan’s tribal areas with the intention of training to fight against American troops in Afghanistan, Pakistani police authorities said Thursday.

    The men, a tight circle of friends in their late teens and their 20s from the Washington suburbs, had been in contact through YouTube with a Pakistani militant with links to Al Qaeda before arriving in Pakistan...

    Sargodha, one of Pakistan’s biggest cities and home to the central command of Pakistan’s air force, is also known as a center for anti-India militant groups. North Waziristan is a haven for Al Qaeda in Pakistan...

    The arrests renewed concerns that American Muslim men with ethnic ties to Pakistan and other Muslim countries were increasingly at the center of terrorist plots aimed against the United States. Earlier this week, an American citizen of Pakistani background, David Coleman Headley, was charged in Chicago with helping plot the 2008 rampage in Mumbai, India, that left more than 160 people dead...

    The five men bonded together in the jihadi cause, watching jihadist video clips on YouTube that showed attacks by the Taliban on allied forces in Afghanistan, he said. The group also maintained a common e-mail address, Chief Anwar said. Employing a technique widely used among militants, they left their comments in the “draft” box of the e-mail address so that they could all easily read the comments...

    Sargodha is about a seven-hour drive from Miram Shah over a route that is increasingly well traveled by Pakistani militants from Punjab who head to the Waziristans for training in explosives and weapons conducted by the Taliban and Qaeda operatives. In the last six months, 24 militants have been arrested in Sargodha, all of them with ties to the Taliban and Waziristan...

    ...a Pakistani official said that Khalid Farooq, the father of Umer, was believed to have ties to Jaish-e-Muhammad, a banned Islamic extremist group created by the government in the 1990s to conduct guerrilla attacks in the disputed territory of Kashmir...

    Jawaat-ud-Dawa was declared a terrorist group by the United Nations last year but still operates in Pakistan...
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  9.    #9  
    An american named David Headley has been arrested for his role in the Mumbai terror attacks.

    This arrest -- alongside the recent arrests of 5 moslem american students in Pakistan attempting to join the jihad, lends weight to the increasing concern that the problems that Europe has had with their moslem citizens (i.e. terror attacks in Britain, Holland, Demark, and Spain) is potenially becoming a problem now for america as well.


    What Was David Headley's Role in the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks?
    By JYOTI THOTTAM / NEW DELHI Jyoti Thottam / New Delhi Sat Dec 12, 2009

    ...Headley was born Daood Gilani in Washington, D.C. His father was Pakistani; his mother, American. The Chicago resident's alleged involvement with the radical Pakistani Islamist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) began nearly three years before the Mumbai attacks. In late 2005 he was told by his handlers to travel to India to do surveillance, so he changed his name in February 2006 to David Headley "in order to present himself in India as an American who was neither Muslim nor Pakistani,"...he actually spent his time in Mumbai "taking pictures and making videotapes of various targets," including those that would eventually be attacked - the Taj and Oberoi hotels, Leopold CafÉ, Nariman House and the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, the city's main railway hub...

    That plot supposedly gelled with Headley's contributions. By late 2007, he had allegedly made three sets of "photographs, videos and oral descriptions" of targets in Mumbai, providing enough information to set the rest of the plan in motion...

    "In March 2008, Headley and his co-conspirators discussed potential landing sites for a team of attackers who would arrive by sea," ...From April to July 2008, Headley took "boat trips in and around the Mumbai harbor" to find a suitable landing spot...

    ...The 10 gunmen who arrived in Mumbai on Nov. 26 would land at the jetty at Budhwar Park, an unguarded fishing spot near the southern end of Mumbai, carrying their weapons with them...

    ...The FBI's investigation of him includes e-mails in which he expresses ongoing frustration with his LeT handlers and complains that they seem insufficiently interested in his goal of attacking a Danish newspaper that had printed cartoons he considered offensive to Islam...

    ..."David Headley had a mind of his own." In the end, it was that single-mindedness - his vehement Internet postings about the cartoons and his frequent trips to Denmark without any apparent business interests there - that tipped off investigators to begin watching him. He was arrested in October shortly before another planned trip to Denmark. Headley is now reportedly cooperating with the investigations of the Danish plot and the attacks of Nov. 26, 2008. He may be the best source yet for India's many unanswered questions about Mumbai.
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