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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Well hey! It must be wrong then!
    Well, at least we all agree now.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I think I stated what I felt the problem was. You want me to restate it?
    Sure...or else substantiate it. Because, other than Rush Limbaugh, I haven't heard anyone else (from either side of the aisle) make the same claim as you.

    It's almost as if you don't want him to get any credit...but, nah, that can't be it.
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, at least we all agree now.
    And let me be the first to warn you that it won't be the last time, neither!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Sure...or else substantiate it. Because, other than Rush Limbaugh, I haven't heard anyone else (from either side of the aisle) make the same claim as you.
    Have you bothered looking the term up? Reviewing where it came from, what it meant, and whether or not it was successful? Or you just gonna dismiss me cause I've been painted with the ole Rush brush? (I know. That's the easiest choice!)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Have you bothered looking the term up? Reviewing where it came from, what it meant, and whether or not it was successful?
    Yep.

    Or you just gonna dismiss me cause I've been painted with the ole Rush brush? (I know. That's the easiest choice!)
    That "I looked it up, and here's what perestroika means" was Rush's tactic, as can be seen by the link above. In that same link, he claimed how we "beat" Russia. I'm painting you with that brush, because it seems as if you're parroting his argument instead of using your own.

    Can you find any new organization making the claim that Obama used lies and distortion regarding Reagan? I'd think Fox would be all over it.

    And, unlike Rush, who simply stated that Gorby stated that perestroika was a retrenchment of Leninism without giving any evidence, I'll substantiate my position by giving you what Gorby actually said in his book Perestroika:

    "Glasnost, criticism and self-criticism are not just a new campaign. They have been proclaimed and must become a norm in the Soviet way of life . There is no democracy, nor can there be, without glasnost. And there is no present-day socialism, nor can there be, without democracy."
    Also, This letter was from Reagan to Gorby. It includes:

    Together, I am confident that we can provide the important political impetus you mentioned in your last letter for moving toward a more constructive and stable relationship between our two countries. I believe that new opportunities are now opening up in U.S.-Soviet relations. We must take advantage of them. You know my view that there are such opportunities in
    every area of our relations, including humanitarian, regional, bilateral and arms control issues. In improving stability there is no more important issue than the arms control talks we have jointly undertaken in Geneva. Our negotiators have very flexible instructions to work with your negotiators in drafting agreements which can lead to radical reductions, and toward our common goal, the elimination of nuclear weapons.
    So It's okay to say Obama represented us well, without resorting to restating incorrect information from talk radio. Just this once, join those lefties Newt and Sarah.
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/10/2009 at 08:09 PM.
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  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And let me add that John Steinbeck should have given up his Nobel in Literature. His books bite!
    Can we all pause in pondering our political differences and come together on this important issue? I still have nightmares about reading the Pearl!
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/10/2009 at 08:08 PM.
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  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    personally, Ron Paul is looking better and better to me.
    Heck, I would even entertain Ross Perot. At least he was entertaining with his graphs.

    There I said it. Does that at least bring a smile to everyones face.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    Heck, I would even entertain Ross Perot. At least he was entertaining with his graphs.
    I liked Ross! He was indeed entertaining...and (although he was a true American hero and didn't deserve the public bashing he got - he was simply a poor choice for that particular role)
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    Heck, I would even entertain Ross Perot. At least he was entertaining with his graphs.

    There I said it. Does that at least bring a smile to everyones face.
    Brings a smile to my face, but then again, I voted for him the first time he ran.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You've shown your colors though. All that false reverence for Reagan.
    It ain't reverence, and it ain't false. It's a long-term reassessment of his foreign policy, which has been tempered by what I've learned from a lot of reading, talking to people, watching documentaries about the Reykjavik talks, and other activities familiar to people with open minds. I still disagree with most aspects of his domestic agenda. (I was alive then, too.)

    If I didn't have real work to do today, it would take me about as long to fire up Lexis Nexis and find a Reagan speech praising perestroika as it took me to use Google to bust you as a dittohead.

    But you're trying to change the subject to my alleged "false reverence" for Reagan only because I pointed out your faux "outrage" over Obama's speech.
  11. #131  
    Oh, what the heck. It's just too easy.


    The Advertiser
    June 2, 1988 Thursday

    Reagan support for perestroika

    BYLINE: JAMES MCCARTNEY

    LENGTH: 539 words



    MOSCOW, Wednesday - President Reagan has given Mr Gorbachev's controversial perestroika program a strong endorsement - a more vigorous vote of confidence than he has given even his Vice-President, Mr Bush.

    In one of the more eloquent speeches of his career, Mr Reagan outlined to his audience at Moscow State University what has become his central summit objective: helping Mr Gorbachev end the Soviet Union's 71-year history as an outlaw nation and nudging it toward greater freedoms.

    "Your generation," he told the students, "is living in one of the most exciting, hopeful times in Soviet history.


    "There are some, I know, in your society who fear that change will bring only disruption and discontinuity, who fear to embrace the hope of the future.

    "Sometimes," he said, "it takes faith."

    Mr Reagan then launched into one of his trademark parables from the movies, in this case a scene from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid. He told how Butch and Sundance were caught on the edge of a cliff between an angry, gun-toting posse and a river hundreds of feet below. The choice was to face certain death at the hands of the posse or to leap into the uncertainty of the river.

    Butch and Sundance took the leap and lived, proving the power of faith.

    "I think what I've just been talking about is perestroika and what it's all about," he said.

    It all added up to the President's strongest endorsement yet of Mr Gorbachev's restructuring of Soviet society.

    Mr Reagan believes the US will be able to do business much more effectively with a freer, more open Soviet Union.

    His endorsement comes on the eve of a Communist Party conference that is expected to determine the fate of Mr Gorbachev's glasnost policies.

    American officials believe Mr Reagan's support may help Mr Gorbachev by signalling the international acceptance that the Soviet Union has long sought.

    Mr Gorbachev alluded to that search in his toast at the State dinner the night before Mr Reagan's university appearance.

    "Internationally, we see ourselves as part of an integral civilisation," he said, "where each has the right to a social and political choice to a worthy and equal place within the community of nations."

    Yesterday, Mr Reagan offered a paean to democracy.

    "Go into any American schoolroom," he said, "and there you will see children being taught the declaration of independence, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Go into any courtroom, and there will preside an independent judge, beholden to no government power

    "Go to any university campus, there you'll find an open, sometimes heated discussion of the problems in American society

    "Go into any union hall, where the members know their right to strike is protected by law.

    "Freedom is the right to question, and change the established way of doing things. It is the continuing revolution of the marketplace. It is the understanding that allows us to recognise shortcomings and seek solutions.

    "Freedom is the recognition that no single person, no single authority or government has a monopoly on the truth "

    It was vintage Reagan telling the tale he tells best. But this time he was telling it for Mikhail Gorbachev.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    If I didn't have real work to do today, it would take me about as long to fire up Lexis Nexis and find a Reagan speech praising perestroika as it took me to use Google to bust you as a dittohead.
    In addition to the letter from Reagan to Gorbachev that I posted above, this may address the issue:

    Reagan and Bush Told Gorbachev Of Hope for Perestroika's Success - NYTimes.com
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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    In addition to the letter from Reagan to Gorbachev that I posted above, this may address the issue:

    Reagan and Bush Told Gorbachev Of Hope for Perestroika's Success - NYTimes.com
    I had already cited that one, but the text I just posted is a lot juicier, and definitively shows that, at least on this topic, Rush is completely full of sh__. He knows that himself, of course.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    I had already cited that one
    Oops!
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    #135  
    a week ago i would've been like
    'that's a wonderful thing' but that is until i saw this This N To Be Fought Tooth And Nail My Modeling Agency Is Not Backing Any Agency That Supports These Efforts To Further This Agenda
    Hi Everybody!!!
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    #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    If I didn't have real work to do today, it would take me about as long to fire up Lexis Nexis and find a Reagan speech praising perestroika as it took me to use Google to bust you as a dittohead.
    Why is your position superior because you've labeled me as a dittohead? Seems like a pretty false choice to me. Look up the facts, or bust him as a dittohead.... What's that say about you?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Why is your position superior because you've labeled me as a dittohead? Seems like a pretty false choice to me. Look up the facts, or bust him as a dittohead.... What's that say about you?
    I'm not following what you're saying here. Can you re-post?
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    #138  
    Obama didn't ask for the award, he doesn't even seem to want it, what is he suppose to do, it aint his fault. What diff does it make. Nobel Peace prize or not life goes on. Arguing bout it aint gonna pay my bills so its whatever.
  19. osirus's Avatar
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    #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dtone View Post
    Obama didn't ask for the award, he doesn't even seem to want it, what is he suppose to do, it aint his fault. What diff does it make. Nobel Peace prize or not life goes on. Arguing bout it aint gonna pay my bills so its whatever.
    no. but it'll take away from your bills
    oh yeah almost for got
    Last edited by osirus; 12/11/2009 at 12:17 PM. Reason: for got and editorial note
    Hi Everybody!!!
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dtone View Post
    Obama didn't ask for the award, he doesn't even seem to want it, what is he suppose to do, it aint his fault. What diff does it make. Nobel Peace prize or not life goes on. Arguing bout it aint gonna pay my bills so its whatever.
    Nothing is his fault. Ever. It's still all about Bush, right?

    Stop for a minute and think.... why do you think Obama "doesn't even seem to want it"?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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