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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    Back to the thread main thought -
    Yep - I still have a headache
    I agree; though in my defense, Obama's speech did cover this offshoot.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I agree; though in my defense, Obama's speech did cover this offshoot.
    You are correct. He also said while as a candidate that he thought the US constitution was out of date. In some ways he is in keeping with his pledges. He also said change. Boy we have that too.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I thought his speech was full of distortions and half truths.
    .
    .
    .

    Obama is rewriting history, and Reagan's probably rolling over in his grave.
    Gingrich liked his speech....but then he's considered a lefty now. However, Palin liked it too, and she's an expert on Russia, so you might be wrong on the perestroika issue.
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  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    You are correct. He also said while as a candidate that he thought the US constitution was out of date. In some ways he is in keeping with his pledges. He also said change. Boy we have that too.
    And... along those lines. Man, it all fits together. Nice
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Gingrich liked his speech....but then he's considered a lefty now. However, Palin liked it too, and she's an expert on Russia, so you might be wrong on the perestroika issue.
    lol. she may. and I'm not! it's really not that complicated, so newt and palin should come around soon...
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    He also said while as a candidate that he thought the US constitution was out of date.
    Actually, he described it as a "remarkable document", with a fatal flaw relating to slavery. Makes perfect sense to me. Of course, his quote was cut/pasted to make it seem that he was saying that the Constitution itself was a flaw in this country, but that's politics for you....here's the entire quote:

    Last edited by Bujin; 12/10/2009 at 04:57 PM.
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    lol. she may. and I'm not! it's really not that complicated, so newt and palin should come around soon...
    Well, if you've caught on this much quicker than them, logic dictates that they are either (a) less adept at history / foreign policy than you, and/or (b) perhaps a bit more willing to give the president credit where credit is due.

    With truly no offence meant toward your foreign policy bona fides: for the sake of the future of the Party, I'm desperately hoping for the latter. I'm hoping that potential contenders for president are a bit more knowledgeable than the average guy on a message board.
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, that's one I don't think I've heard before. Any actual evidence to support the allegation that the president of the US and former Constitutional law professor, thinks the Constitution is out of date?

    Or is that one of those "Obama will make the military swear an oath to him instead of the Constitution" conspiracy theories?
    Actually, I think that comment stems from one of his contemporaries and supporters.... possibly an advisor (somehow I have the thought that it was woman congressperson in the back of my mind). I also recall it being attributed to him, though I don't think he stated it directly. I'm probably wrong. Will need to research.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, that's one I don't think I've heard before. Any actual evidence to support the allegation that the president of the US and former Constitutional law professor, thinks the Constitution is out of date?

    Or is that one of those "Obama will make the military swear an oath to him instead of the Constitution" conspiracy theories?
    You know what. It was said and I just don't give 2 hoots anymore. Thank god the mid-term election is less than a year away. I have made up my voting mind and it's not for anyone in office now.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, if you've caught on this much quicker than them, logic dictates that they are either (a) less adept at history / foreign policy than you, and/or (b) perhaps a bit more willing to give the president credit where credit is due.

    With truly no offence meant toward your foreign policy bona fides: for the sake of the future of the Party, I'm desperately hoping for the latter. I'm hoping that potential contenders for president are a bit more knowledgeable than the average guy on a message board.
    I'm with you! I'd be terrible. In fact, if you run, I'll vote for you! Let me know what you decide....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    You know what. It was said and I just don't give 2 hoots anymore. Thank god the mid-term election is less than a year away. I have made up my voting mind and it's not for anyone in office now.
    personally, Ron Paul is looking better and better to me.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Great. Another "have you stopped beating your wife?" post. You intertwine glasnost with perestroika and come at me. I never said anything about glasnost, so don't put words in my mouth. Perestroika was what Obama mentioned, and that's what I was refering to, and that was SOLELY Gorb's plan, term, and the title of his book. Reagan "embrassed" no such thing. If anyone is denying Reagan his legacy, its people like you and Obama.


    Obama was honoring Reagan's successful strategy of tough-minded diplomacy in a time when mutually-assured nuclear destruction was a real possibility. Why are you berating him for that? The resulting holocaust would not have spared anyone based on ideology, and Reagan was horrified enough by that prospect that he engaged with Gorbachev without submitting to him.

    Incidentally, there is a growing group of historians (see, e.g., Paul Lettow's Ronald Reagan and His Quest to Abolish Nuclear Weapons) who have documented that Reagan was at root a nuclear abolitionist. Again, why it would be considered anything but praiseworthy to support the responsible elimination of weapons whose use would be, by definition, insane, is beyond me.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post


    Obama was honoring Reagan's successful strategy of tough-minded diplomacy in a time when mutually-assured nuclear destruction was a real possibility. Why are you berating him for that?
    Because he didn't SAY that. Go back and read the transcripts. Had he SAID that, I'd applaud. You're attributing all of these wonderful "thoughts" that were not spoken by Obama. See how revisionism/spin works?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm with you! I'd be terrible. In fact, if you run, I'll vote for you! Let me know what you decide....
    I'll get back to you on that. I think I have a real shot...after all, I only won one less state than Dukakis or Mondale, and I wasn't even trying then!
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  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Because he didn't SAY that. Go back and read the transcripts. Had he SAID that, I'd applaud. You're attributing all of these wonderful "thoughts" that were not spoken by Obama. See how revisionism/spin works?
    He said: "Ronald Reagan's efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe. There's no simple formula here. But we must try as best we can to balance isolation and engagement, pressure and incentives, so that human rights and dignity are advanced over time."

    What is the problem with that statement? I realize that Rush Limbaugh is currently stating that we didn't improve relations, but rather we "defeated" Russia. Of course, we did no such thing. I visited Russia during perestroika...there were definite efforts to improve US/USSR relations. And Reagan was instrumental in that. It's just bizarre that Rush's obvious dislike of the President extends so far that he's unwilling to give just an ounce of credit.

    But you can be better than that, Micael. Obama gave a speech with a very presidential message, and even came out in support of the GOP's greatest hero. You can give him a little credit...it won't hurt at all!
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/10/2009 at 05:21 PM.
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Because he didn't SAY that. Go back and read the transcripts. Had he SAID that, I'd applaud. You're attributing all of these wonderful "thoughts" that were not spoken by Obama. See how revisionism/spin works?
    Direct quote:

    "Ronald Reagan's efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe."

    Seems pretty accurate, and laudatory, to me.

    I Googled "reagan embrace perestroika" to try to figure out why these three fairly innocuous words from Obama's speech seem to freak you out so much.

    Top of the search:

    Obama Rewrites Reagan History

    And I thought you personally gave a s__t about this!

  17. #117  
    Reagan and Bush Told Gorbachev Of Hope for Perestroika's Success - NYTimes.com

    Got awful quiet awful fast in here since I discovered we were actually debating the daily talking points of noted historian/political scientist Rush Limbaugh.

    "But that's from The New York Times!" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    What is the problem with that statement?
    I think I stated what I felt the problem was. You want me to restate it?

    And I'm glad for you for being happy over Obama acting very Presidential excepting his Nobel Peace prize that has yet to be earned. Meanwhile people are out of work and Congress is hijacking healthcare, taxing us into oblivion, and spending money as fast as they can print it.

    But nice speech. He's really good with those teleprompters, don't you think? And I think Will Smith got teary eyed.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Reagan and Bush Told Gorbachev Of Hope for Perestroika's Success - NYTimes.com

    Got awful quiet awful fast in here since I discovered we were actually debating the daily talking points of noted historian/political scientist Rush Limbaugh.

    "But that's from The New York Times!" in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1
    Well hey! It must be wrong then!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Direct quote:

    "Ronald Reagan's efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe."

    Seems pretty accurate, and laudatory, to me.

    I Googled "reagan embrace perestroika" to try to figure out why these three fairly innocuous words from Obama's speech seem to freak you out so much.

    Top of the search:

    Obama Rewrites Reagan History

    And I thought you personally gave a s__t about this!

    Yeah, I'm a mind numb robot. Thank goodness Rush gives us our marching orders.

    I suppose you won't believe that I was not only alive back then, but I was actually very interested at the time because I was active military and fighting the cold war.

    You've shown your colors though. All that false reverence for Reagan.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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