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  1.    #1  
    Michael Moore was on The View, Friday, September 25, 2009. A short snip of his interview is located here: The View | Video | Michael Moore The complete show/interview is located here: ABC Shows

    Many of his points are brought up in his new movie Capitalism: A Love Story A few of the points he brought out on the view are:

    Dead Peasant Life Insurance Policy

    I remember reading about this and I know some states have enacted laws making it illegal. What happens is companies would secretly take out corporate life insurance policies on their employees. Many time they continue to pay the policy after the employee leaves, due to the tax deduction.

    The argument can be made that they are paying the premium, so what's the difference. Well the company now has a vested interest in you dieing, and of course if a widow is left, the company pockets the money, rather than distributing it to the widow.

    No Social Security Paid On Income Over $110,000

    Everyone pays approximately 7% of their gross earning to Social Security, unless you make over $110,000 a year. No Social Security is paid on income above $110,000. If everyone, including incomes above $110,000 paid the 7%, Social Security would be solvent until 2087.

    Other Talking Points

    The concentration of wealth in the top 1% is greater than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%. Graphically represented by 10 people go into a room with 1 pie. The pie is divided up into 10 slices. One person gets 9 slices, and the 9 other people get to share the 1 last slice.
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  2. DWEIL's Avatar
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    #2  
    Hope you got a good view of the violence and destruction that was caused by anti-capitalism demonstrators near the G-20 meetings in Pittsburgh. Based on the lessons I've learned from my political betters over the summer, it's clear to me that the hateful and reactionary messages included in Michael Moore's latest film, "Capitalism: A Love Story" are inflaming and inciting this ugly mob.

    No doubt Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer will be issuing the public condemnations these violent demonstrations warrant before someone is inspired to visit physical violence on the president of the Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce.
  3. #3  
    lol the truth will set you free ... i dont hear those stalwart conservative republicans refuting Mr Moores claims. While I have not seen the movie, i have read several reviews. some are extremely slanted against moore and some are slanted for moore... but no where do i read or hear people refuting what he has laid claim to.. if true, no bloody wonder there are riots
    ahhhh harken back to yester year, when fine stalwart british subjects took up arms against the tea tax.. lol this does have a familiar vein, hmmmm
  4. DWEIL's Avatar
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    #4  
    The lack of refutation is largely due to the fact that Mr. Moore is a shameless hypocrite. He can honestly preach on about the evils of capitalism as soon as he turns over ownership of his film production company and the intellectual property rights of his previous films to the people in the trenches who actually did the grunt work that produced them. Until then, he's just another accomplished capitalist, albeit cosmically more dishonest and cynical than your average Wall Street banker.

    Capitalism has never been about fairness. It is entirely focused on how to make the most profitable use of scarce resources by deploying them in a way that makes the most return. While there are many legitimate problems with capitalism, it is unchallenged as the most efficient and effective economic system for increasing aggregate wealth in the history of the world.

    You need look no further than Southeast Asia, India, or better yet, China, once the purest of Communist countries and an economic train wreck of unmatched historical proportions. Is there really anyone who honestly believes the average citizen in China would be better off today if the Chinese government 25 years ago hadn't swallowed hard and opened up its economy to private investment and individual incentives, aka capitalism?

    Yes, the truth will set you free. But not a moment before you get a firm grip on it.
  5. #5  
    No Social Security Paid On Income Over $110,000

    Everyone pays approximately 7% of their gross earning to Social Security, unless you make over $110,000 a year. No Social Security is paid on income above $110,000. If everyone, including incomes above $110,000 paid the 7%, Social Security would be solvent until 2087.
    It's interesting that most liberals oppose a flat tax for income but they would like to impose one for social security because it would increase collections for the government...

    I just want to know according to those who support Micheal Moore or his views, what should be the maximum overall taxable rate in the US? 40%? 50% 70%?
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  6. #6  
    the point of my post,,, was the tea tax.. and the riots.. not moore.. to believe for a moment that the average American individual is totally in the dark about what is going on is again patently false. For all the much vaunted individualism of the american tax payer, it still takes someone to lead them.. history points to such capitalists like Franklin and the rest of your leaders of the great revolution. I would suggest to forget your past is your ticket to repeating it..
    regardless to what tag you put on the type of capitalism you have today or 200 or so years ago.. its still capitalism. Headed up by a king or suits in towers. The analogy I like is this, the barons of old are the suits of today.. whether you lived in a castle or you live in a gleaming tower, you still look down on your peasants/the middle lower class. The sooner the powers that be realize that they are just repeating history, the better. However, with the greed factor thrown in, I think they will do anything they can to stomp on the so called "lower classes" lol weeeeeeeeeeeeee
  7. #7  
    Last I checked, it was the politicians acting like "kings". They want a permanent class of "Anointed Ones" lording over the unwashed peons and making their decisions for them.

    Dress it up however you like, but they're still pushing the same old Omnipotent Government control that has left people poor or worse for centuries. America used to be the exception, but every new government takeover, unvetted "czar", and tax/fee/fine leaves the individual a bit less free and a bit worse off.

    Nancy Pelosi and Bawney Fwank and Diane Feinstein do it because they believe their job is to Rule and every single one of us is their peasant, so they'll push every form of government dependency they can, trading the votes that'll keep them in office forever for a handout check here or there.

    Michael Moore and the entirety of Hollywood do it because they already "got theirs" so it doesn't really matter if they destroy the ability of anyone else to move up in life. They're basically pushing a caste system. Ditto for the media who cheer on every government power grab.

    The pragmatic companies that fall all over themselves are just hoping that the next round of regulations will favor them over a competitor--a pretty shortsighted view. A few customers are forced your way via government rules, and then in a year you realize your industry is under a politicians' thumb and growth and innovation have been crushed.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No Social Security Paid On Income Over $110,000

    Everyone pays approximately 7% of their gross earning to Social Security, unless you make over $110,000 a year. No Social Security is paid on income above $110,000. If everyone, including incomes above $110,000 paid the 7%, Social Security would be solvent until 2087.
    This is very misleading. If you make over $110k, you still pay the 7% on the FIRST 110k. Assuming that if the tax was applied to an individuals entire earned income, that the entire amount taxed would go to social security is laughable.

    There are reasons that the tax only applies to an initial bracket of income, and it has to do with the overly complicated and targetted taxes in this country.

    I use this example a lot, but my Boss makes tens of millions a year. He owns his business. Rich guy huh? Well, after paying out all the costs of running and supporting a business, he takes home under $100k per year. If that 7% were applied to his entire income, that would have kept us from acquiring enough machinery to employ many more workers. He has provided jobs, and kept the business open with that money. Why should he have to pay more, and take away the ability to invest in his company, and the employees that run it?

    The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries - Winston Churchill
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic View Post
    It's interesting that most liberals oppose a flat tax for income but they would like to impose one for social security because it would increase collections for the government...

    I just want to know according to those who support Micheal Moore or his views, what should be the maximum overall taxable rate in the US? 40%? 50% 70%?
    I certainly don't oppose a flat tax. I think it's fairer than what we have now, but it has to be 100% across the board for everyone, no exceptions or deductions. Looking at our current structure at face value, we have a progressive system, meaning the more you make, the more you pay. If you look at the amount, dollar wise that the top 10% pay, it's like 90% to 95% of the total paid - something like that, clemgrad85 posted the exact amount a few weeks back.

    I've seen people take those same stats, agree with them, but then show the system starts out progressive, but then becomes regressive as a % to what they pay of their gross income due to shelters they are able to take advantage of. It makes sense to me, since the concentration of wealth in the top 1% is greater than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%.
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  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I certainly don't oppose a flat tax. I think it's fairer than what we have now, but it has to be 100% across the board for everyone, no exceptions or deductions. Looking at our current structure at face value, we have a progressive system, meaning the more you make, the more you pay. If you look at the amount, dollar wise that the top 10% pay, it's like 90% to 95% of the total paid - something like that, clemgrad85 posted the exact amount a few weeks back.

    I've seen people take those same stats, agree with them, but then show the system starts out progressive, but then becomes regressive as a % to what they pay of their gross income due to shelters they are able to take advantage of. It makes sense to me, since the concentration of wealth in the top 1% is greater than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%.
    The Fair Tax would be better....check it out....it actually gets taxes from people who currently pay little or no tax because their income might be "under the table" (drug money, prostitution, illegals, etc). Those of us currently paying taxes would end up paying about the same as we do now but we could save money (and time) on all the things we spend money on to avoid taxes (trusts and such). Wouldn't it be nice if people who were currently livng in our country were actually paying taxes? Well, the Fair Tax would do this.

    One other thing, on corporate life insurance. In most cases it is next to impossible for a life policy of any consequence (that is, with a decent amount of coverage) to be taken out on someone without their knowledge. Having worked with corporate policies the employee/insured has to answer health questions and sign as the insured. Now, if a company falsifies the application, that is another issue. In most cases there are benefits to the employee tied to these polices as long as they stay with the employer (many cases retirment benefits)....it is meant to serve as an incentive for an employee to stay put. If the employee leaves, and the corporation (the owner of the policy) wants to pay for the premiums for the next 5,10, 15, 20, 30 years then I don't see a problem with that. After all, they (corp) might have been paying on the policy already for 20 or more years. I have a woman client who continues to pay the life insurance premiums on her "ex" and plans to pay the premiums until he dies. She clearly had an insurable interest at the time of the policy, but doesn't now, other than just wanting to capitalize on his death should he die. This is no different than the corporation who had an insurable interst at one point but doesn't once the employee leaves.
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  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No Social Security Paid On Income Over $110,000

    Everyone pays approximately 7% of their gross earning to Social Security, unless you make over $110,000 a year. No Social Security is paid on income above $110,000. If everyone, including incomes above $110,000 paid the 7%, Social Security would be solvent until 2087.
    Everyone who is employed by someone else you mean (their employers pay the other half). People who are self-employed pay the full ~15%.
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  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Everyone who is employed by someone else you mean (their employers pay the other half). People who are self-employed pay the full ~15%.
    Exactly....and that would be me. If they are going to tax those levels over $110,000, then shouldn't those folks future benefits be higher? I think what people want is for the guy making $1 million to pay the full tax (either 7.65% or 15.3%). So, if self employed that person would pay $153,000 + $350,000 (35% Fed) + $70,000 (assumed SC 7% state tax) for a total of $573,000 in taxes. This doesn't include the numerous other taxes (property, local, etc), so the fat cat making $1 million ends up netting around $400,000. Now, palandri will say why does someone need to make $400,000 anyway....and there is no way to get past someone who thinks that way. The point is under the FICA tax above $110,000 scenario you have someone grossing $1 million and netting $400,000....$600,000 in taxes, LOL. Crazy Of course, I assumed 35% on Fed but we know that is going up soon, right, soooooo, good grief.....not a very fair tax system if you ask me.
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Too bad that poor, working stiff has no dependents, deductions, exemptions or small businesses. Or the funds to afford a crafty accountant to see to it that they're included.
    Well I wasn't prepared to do a hypothetical tax return, it was a simple example, LOL. Besides, even if I had posted a real tax return on here....you know, one with dependents and deductions using a crafty accountant, you would have come up with something that was wrong with it.

    You sure assume a lot....LOL....I have a couple that lives above me that together probably makes $600,000....they have no dependents....both are in sales (medical equipment)...and they only have the one home. So, they wouldn't have the dependents to deduct or the small business duductions you expect every rich person to have. Now, they might have a crafty accountant, I'll ask them the next time that subject comes up
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  14.    #14  
    Nice to see ya back Clemgrad. I was really starting to get depressed about South Carolina and losing hope. That old governor of yours sneaking down to Argentina to be with his mistress. Old Joe Wilson yelling up a storm.

    Then suddenly I found this: YouTube - Miller4congress's Channel Now the sun seems to shine a little brighter, the crops seem to be growing a little taller and the days seem a little longer.
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  15. #15  
    Yo....1thing2add....if you can answer something without being a smart$#@, what do you think about the Fair Tax? Have you looked into it? It is not the flat tax, but the Fair Tax....big difference. And again, try not to give a smart #@$ comeback, just curious as to your opinion of it.
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Nice to see ya back Clemgrad. I was really starting to get depressed about South Carolina and losing hope. That old governor of yours sneaking down to Argentina to be with his mistress. Old Joe Wilson yelling up a storm.

    Then suddenly I found this: YouTube - Miller4congress's Channel Now the sun seems to shine a little brighter, the crops seem to be growing a little taller and the days seem a little longer.
    Palandri....just figured I'd look at something different in here....I'm through with the healthcare debate, LOL. No one will change my mind on that whole thing and sure not going to change the other side, so just not worth the hassle.

    Have you ever checked out the Fair Tax? Check it out....there is a short book on the subject that really does an excellent job of explaining it and how it could work. I would love to get rid of this complicated tax system that even Geithner and Ranckel can't seem to follow. Of course, they can file wrong and not have any penalties or interest due, but...well....that's another topic, huh?

    Aren't you from Illinois? Um....should you really be making fun of our Governor? Granted, the man made a huge error, but seems like y'alls Governor isn't exactly one to brag about....am I correct? I am disappointed in Sanford....he sure put himself in some trouble by letting his emotions (among other things) get the best of him, but I do like his political thinking.
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  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Palandri....just figured I'd look at something different in here....I'm through with the healthcare debate, LOL. No one will change my mind on that whole thing and sure not going to change the other side, so just not worth the hassle.

    Have you ever checked out the Fair Tax? Check it out....there is a short book on the subject that really does an excellent job of explaining it and how it could work. I would love to get rid of this complicated tax system that even Geithner and Ranckel can't seem to follow. Of course, they can file wrong and not have any penalties or interest due, but...well....that's another topic, huh?

    Aren't you from Illinois? Um....should you really be making fun of our Governor? Granted, the man made a huge error, but seems like y'alls Governor isn't exactly one to brag about....am I correct? I am disappointed in Sanford....he sure put himself in some trouble by letting his emotions (among other things) get the best of him, but I do like his political thinking.
    I am all for a simple one line tax law, you pay x% on all income, period. I looked at the consumption tax and I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to say yay or nay.

    We have you beat on governors that show bad judgment. We lost our last two.
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  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am all for a simple one line tax law, you pay x% on all income, period. I looked at the consumption tax and I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to say yay or nay.

    We have you beat on governors that show bad judgment. We lost our last two.
    I found these charts from factcheck interesting in regards to the Flat/Fair tax:





    FactCheck.org: Unspinning the FairTax
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    the point of my post,,, was the tea tax.. and the riots.. not moore.. to believe for a moment that the average American individual is totally in the dark about what is going on is again patently false. For all the much vaunted individualism of the american tax payer, it still takes someone to lead them.. history points to such capitalists like Franklin and the rest of your leaders of the great revolution. I would suggest to forget your past is your ticket to repeating it..
    regardless to what tag you put on the type of capitalism you have today or 200 or so years ago.. its still capitalism. Headed up by a king or suits in towers. The analogy I like is this, the barons of old are the suits of today.. whether you lived in a castle or you live in a gleaming tower, you still look down on your peasants/the middle lower class. The sooner the powers that be realize that they are just repeating history, the better. However, with the greed factor thrown in, I think they will do anything they can to stomp on the so called "lower classes" lol weeeeeeeeeeeeee
    Huh? "Kings"? "Suits"? "Barons"? "For all the much vaunted individualism of the american tax payer, it still takes someone to lead them"?

    Man, are we ever on different planets! You don't seem to even have a basic grasp of how capitalism (or the American society, for that matter) works.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...Man, are we ever on different planets!...
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