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  1. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    You are very right here. And again if you refer to the very 1st post of this thread I addressed cost shifting and I think it should be illegal. I don't understand what you are talking about with the "underperforming insurance companies where clinical outcomes are concerned"
    I gave a lead-in to the "whys" with the very next line regarding hospital readmissions. Ever wonder why a single heel ulceration easily costs $30-40k to properly treat? (No, it has nothing to do with tort reform, either. ) I'm throwing up a low-cost example of the real-world economics here. Once that patient's insurance is maxed out, (you do realize that there is a cap on a per-admission basis, correct?) and assuming they can carry coverage of some kind without it being reduced or dropped, altogether, what do you think happens to their care and the costs involved? What direction does it take under our current system?
  2. KAM1138
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So it just boils down to "precedence"? "The government has always provided its people with tax funded roads so that is OK. The government has never provided its people with tax funded health care so to start now is bad?
    Hello Kenanator,

    No. I'm trying to explain to you the difference between what an individual can provide for themselves, and what they cannot. I'm not trying to get you to say what you want is bad--I'm only trying to explain the difference in the nature of what you are comparing.

    How about this. Can you as an individual create a highway system? The answer is no of course. One of the reasons we agree to give up some of our liberty (which is required by any government system) is that we prefer to have other things that we as individuals cannot provide.

    Can you as an individual manage and arrange for your own feeding. Of course the answer is yes. You don't need government to provide you bread--you can earn money to buy it yourself. A government is not needed to provide you with food, because it is well within your means and scope of your personal abilities to do so.

    Now, you might think that the government should provide you bread, but that's another issue. If you want to get into a discussion about what the US Constitution allows, we can do that, but its not what I'm trying to explain here.

    KAM
  3.    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    I gave a lead-in to the "whys" with the very next line regarding hospital readmissions. Ever wonder why a single heel ulceration easily costs $30-40k to properly treat? (No, it has nothing to do with tort reform, either. ) I'm throwing up a low-cost example of the real-world economics here.
    I do think the cost is out of control, and a lot of that is due to many reasons...high malpractice insurance premiums and cost shifting are a couple of those reasons.

    Once that patient's insurance is maxed out, (you do realize that there is a cap on a per-admission basis, correct?) and assuming they can carry coverage of some kind without it being reduced or dropped, altogether, what do you think happens to their care and the costs involved?
    That depends on the policy you purchase. Mine has a $10 million dollar lifetime limit. It does not have an annual or per-admission cap, although I have seen policies that do.

    My mother spent 10 continuous MONTHS in the hospital...45 Days in Intensive Care in a COMA, (she did eventually recover and returned to work-although that was 20 years ago and she has passed since then) Her insurance had a $2,000,000.00 limit (which back then was a lot) She exceeded the limit. The hospital and doctors told us not to worry about it, they have private foundations that help out in these extreme cases. We never saw another bill. That is what the private system CAN do.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    The health care system was not DESIGNED to be funded by taxes.

    BTW...Sorry if you were offended, I assumed you did know the difference. My mistake.

    Isn't it very important for everyone to have transportation, how about a house, food, a good job, etc. Should we be providing that also? Sure, we have food stamps, housing allowances, buses, etc. (and Medicaid). But really, shouldn't we also make sure EVERYONE is happy with a good car, house, etc. I remember reading somewhere about a "pursuit of happiness"

    After all, wasn't it one of our founding fathers that said "From each, according to their ability, to each, according to their needs" would be the foundation of our country?
    I am not saying that I do not believe in a capitalist system, and that we should get everything handed to us. I just do not see why our health should be considered a "material possession."

    Let me finish the quote you started: "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" from our Declaration Of Independence. Isn't your health a substantial part of your life and happiness?

    Here is a quote for you. I know he was not American but to me his words here hold true:

    "Healthy citizens are the greatest asset any country can have”

    Winston Churchill
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Kenanator, Read KAM1138's post again. It is very good. It does not even suggest this is by "precedence" Read it again. There is a BIG difference in Roads vs Healthcare.
    I will. please read davidra's again...
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hello Kenanator,

    No. I'm trying to explain to you the difference between what an individual can provide for themselves, and what they cannot. I'm not trying to get you to say what you want is bad--I'm only trying to explain the difference in the nature of what you are comparing.

    How about this. Can you as an individual create a highway system? The answer is no of course. One of the reasons we agree to give up some of our liberty (which is required by any government system) is that we prefer to have other things that we as individuals cannot provide.

    Can you as an individual manage and arrange for your own feeding. Of course the answer is yes. You don't need government to provide you bread--you can earn money to buy it yourself. A government is not needed to provide you with food, because it is well within your means and scope of your personal abilities to do so.

    Now, you might think that the government should provide you bread, but that's another issue. If you want to get into a discussion about what the US Constitution allows, we can do that, but its not what I'm trying to explain here.

    KAM
    Like I have said, I am not anti-capitalism. I just don't think your health is a material item that should have a price tag and be profitable for someone else.

    The only ones who profit from roads are those who build them. I feel that the only ones who should profit from health are the ones who save lives, not some unnecessary middle man (ins. companies)
  7. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    I do think the cost is out of control, and a lot of that is due to many reasons...high malpractice insurance premiums and cost shifting are a couple of those reasons.
    Sorry, but that is just a political argument, not a practical address of the issue. It's not that $30-40k to properly treat a heel ulceration is "too high". That is, in fact, what is required. The issue is, how do we provide the care required without continuing to bankrupt healthcare for the sake of insurance profiteering which is today's common practice?

    My mother spent 10 continuous MONTHS in the hospital...45 Days in Intensive Care in a COMA, (she did eventually recover and returned to work-although that was 20 years ago and she has passed since then) Her insurance had a $2,000,000.00 limit (which back then was a lot) She exceeded the limit. The hospital and doctors told us not to worry about it, they have private foundations that help out in these extreme cases. We never saw another bill. That is what the private system CAN do.
    Actually, $2M in 1989 was not that bad for a "large" bill, depending on the care she required, especially for an admission that long. Glad to hear she recovered, however, yours is not representative of the societal impact of today's healthcare economics. Try going to 10 random metro areas and experience the differences in the treatment of a bill that exceeds your lifetime cap. It's time to consider how "WE" get through this, not how some exceptions are able to make a difference in a handful of lives where private benefactors are involved.
  8. #148  
    A little off target here. I bet 1thing2add that you are aware that ACORN is involved in health care as is its sister union. With ACRON's involvement, why should you trust what is being done?
  9.    #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Like I have said, I am not anti-capitalism. I just don't think your health is a material item that should have a price tag and be profitable for someone else.
    While that sounds heartwarming and a worthy cause is it possible.

    We have a non-profit hospital here that charges the same as any other hospital. It can't make a "profit", so the extra money it earns is turned in to acquiring land around the hospital, building new buildings, health spas, etc. All this does offer more for the citizens. (I am a member of the health spa ), but it doesn't help anyone who can't afford care get care any easier.
  10.    #150  
    In Louisiana there is no reason for anyone to go without healthcare. We have a system of Charity Hospitals (they are teaching hospitals) that charge based on a sliding scale - a majority of patients do not pay anything. We have local public health units for checkups, immunizations, minor treatments. Again, if there is a charge, it is usually $5-$10. I don't know of anyone who CAN'T get healthcare locally.

    I have insurance because I like to choose my doctor I want and I don't like to wait. When I am sick, if my usual doctor can't see me today, I go down the street to another.

    My problem with a federal takeover is that it would be an end to insurance as we know it. It would limit my choices, and sure like our Charity system, if I am real sick, I can get care, but I may have to wait awhile and if they don't think I am worth treating, there won't be somewhere else to go for a second opinion.
  11. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    In Louisiana there is no reason for anyone to go without healthcare. We have a system of Charity Hospitals (they are teaching hospitals) that charge based on a sliding scale - a majority of patients do not pay anything. We have local public health units for checkups, immunizations, minor treatments. Again, if there is a charge, it is usually $5-$10. I don't know of anyone who CAN'T get healthcare locally.
    Based upon that model, what is Jindal's plan for providing universal care?

    My problem with a federal takeover is that it would be an end to insurance as we know it. It would limit my choices, and sure like our Charity system, if I am real sick, I can get care, but I may have to wait awhile and if they don't think I am worth treating, there won't be somewhere else to go for a second opinion.
    Those are your unfounded fears speaking for you. "Insurance as we know it" is primarily why healthcare is heading for bankruptcy.
  12.    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Based upon that model, what is Jindal's plan for providing universal care?
    Jindal is a bottom line type of person. If there is a cheaper way to treat people that is what he is for. Not all bad, but not all heart either.

    Those are your unfounded fears speaking for you. "Insurance as we know it" is primarily why healthcare is heading for bankruptcy.
    Healthcare? or Health Insurance? I don't know of either of the TWO separate entities heading for bankruptcy. (Maybe those of us that have to pay for both)
  13. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Jindal is a bottom line type of person. If there is a cheaper way to treat people that is what he is for. Not all bad, but not all heart either.
    Now is the time to stand and deliver. When or if he chooses to run for prez in 2012, his vision will be far too late. His experience as President of the University of Louisiana System could be invaluable if he was only so inclined. That is, assuming the model that you describe could be nationalized.

    Healthcare? or Health Insurance? I don't know of either of the TWO separate entities heading for bankruptcy. (Maybe those of us that have to pay for both)
    The two are inseparable and (under our current framework) dysfunctionally codependent, though you may choose not to admit or accept it. "Insurance as we know it" and the industry's bet against illness for profit's sake is as counterproductive to providing healthcare as a casino is to one's economic stability.
  14. kabamm's Avatar
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    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Can you as an individual manage and arrange for your own feeding. Of course the answer is yes. You don't need government to provide you bread--you can earn money to buy it yourself. A government is not needed to provide you with food, because it is well within your means and scope of your personal abilities to do so.
    I disagree. Using my own personal experience as an example - had it not been for AFDC, food stamps, school lunches and all the other trappings of 'welfare', I very likely would have been quite malnourished and otherwise even more seriously under-privileged as a child, and possibly would not have grown into the healthy, hard-working, college-educated, tax-paying citizen I am today. That early government investment has saved me from a life of misery and need.

    As an adult, I have watched my insurance quality markedly decline while my premiums have skyrocketed over the last 15 years. This is not just anecdotal - costs have risen out of proportion to inflation. The corporate middle-man must be paid - and apparently in a handsome fashion.

    Reliance upon individuals acting in a 'free' market for health-care has failed. The evidence and anecdotes are all around us. Heck, unless I was dying, I'd have to make an appointment about six weeks in advance to see my doctor - and I'm currently paying for premium-level health insurance. Not 'concierge-level' health care, mind you, but good.

    I'm single, and I watch my co-workers with families struggle to pay their share of the so-called employer-provided coverage. I'm aghast at the premiums - two children and two adults - it's about $1,000 per month! On a middle-class ($80k+) salary, with a family, there is no longer any such thing as affordable individual health insurance in the U.S. - except for a subset of the upper-middle class and the wealthy - and this anecdote illustrates that the group policies don't always come cheap either.

    Mandating insurance is not the answer - I myself went without health insurance in my late teens and twenties - I'm now in my late forties - because I simply could not afford it - and also eat, for example, and pay the mandated liability insurance on my old beater car, and tuition at a public college while I worked full-time at various just-above-minimum-wage jobs to scrape enough together to keep it all going.

    I've managed to claw my way out of the lower-class - but not without help. There were no boots to which I could attach the damn bootstraps, but I earn a handsome wage today and firmly believe that a modest increase in my taxes - and especially in the economic rung just above mine - to support a public health care plan for others is a very good idea.

    It is beyond time for our government to get further involved on behalf of individuals - and remove shareholder profit as a primary motivating force behind providing health care - just as most other technologically advanced societies have done.

    The single-payer plan is inevitable, health insurance is an anachronism, and this needs to be done correctly for posterity. It is what the majority in this country voted for as a primary plank in Obama's platform. Blustering and moaning about the awfulness of socialism using Objectivist simplicity is not helpful.

    Filling the emergency rooms with uninsured folks at a very high taxpayer cost isn't working either.

    It's time for that change we requested - too bad about this economic meltdown, eh? Yaay for those de-regulated free markets.
    Last edited by kabamm; 09/17/2009 at 12:16 AM.
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  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Like I have said, I am not anti-capitalism. I just don't think your health is a material item that should have a price tag and be profitable for someone else.

    The only ones who profit from roads are those who build them. I feel that the only ones who should profit from health are the ones who save lives, not some unnecessary middle man (ins. companies)
    Seriously? You think this? You don't don't accept the notion that any business that transports goods of any kind, benefits (and makes profit) from the roads?

    If the ambulance driving you to the hospital uses the road and gets you there faster than if it has driven through fields and a yard or two, and you live, aren't you profiting from the road?

    Does anyone besides you profit from what you do? OMG how could you let them do that?

    Should the companies that make medical equipment that saves lives in the hands of a doctor make a profit or should they just break even because they aren't really doing the work?

    Do you tie your own shoes?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    SNIP

    I'm single, and I watch my co-workers with families struggle to pay their share of the so-called employer-provided coverage. I'm aghast at the premiums - two children and two adults - it's about $1,000 per month! On a middle-class ($80k+) salary, with a family, there is no longer any such thing as affordable individual health insurance in the U.S. - except for a subset of the upper-middle class and the wealthy - and this anecdote illustrates that the group policies don't come cheap either.

    Snip
    Sounds like the company you work for kinda sucks in the bennie department. I pay just north of $200 a month for two adults and two kids for my employer provided plan. Excellent coverage too.
    Maybe your HR department should shop around a bit.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Sounds like the company you work for kinda sucks in the bennie department. I pay just north of $200 a month for two adults and two kids for my employer provided plan. Excellent coverage too.
    Maybe your HR department should shop around a bit.
    Perhaps your share is only $200. How much does your company contribute? I work for a large (in our field) multi-national firm that's not terribly generous on the employer percentage, and these premiums are not unusual in the industry. Cheaper insurance may be had from the cafeteria plan - the rate I mention is for the most costly of the three options, but none of them would be anywhere near $200. I think the cheapest catastrophic coverage is about $468 for a family. On a salary less than mine, I'd be hard-pressed to pay that - and I'm paid above median in my firm.
    Last edited by kabamm; 09/17/2009 at 12:20 AM.
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Perhaps your share is only $200. How much does your company contribute? I work for a large (in our field) multi-national firm that's not terribly generous on the employer percentage, and these premiums are not unusual in the industry. Cheaper insurance may be had from the cafeteria plan - the rate I mention is for the most costly of the three options, but none of them would be anywhere near $200. I think the cheapest catastrophic coverage is about $468 for a family. On a salary less than mine, I'd be hard-pressed to pay that - and I'm paid above median in my firm.
    Yes "my share" is 200. Your post implied that the 1000 was the employee portion so I compared. Mine is also the top coverage available.
    I am honestly not sure what the company pays specifically. The lion's share to be sure.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. kabamm's Avatar
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    #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Yes "my share" is 200. Your post implied that the 1000 was the employee portion so I compared. Mine is also the top coverage available.
    I am honestly not sure what the company pays specifically. The lion's share to be sure.
    That $1000 is the employee's share for the 'best' family option. My firm pays about a third of the total cost. I pay about $200 a month just for me - and I have the 'better' choice of the three - I didn't opt for the Cadillac plan. This is ordinary for my industry. There's no "shopping around" to be done.

    Fortunately, my job pays well enough that I can easily afford that $200, which is not so for those who earn less, nor for those whose companies do NOT provide group insurance and who would have to pay the cost of a full individual plan - about $4-6k annually, if you can get it. Hence the need for government involvement - and reduction of the profit motive.
    Last edited by kabamm; 09/17/2009 at 01:38 AM.
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  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    That $1000 is the employee's share for the 'best' family option. My firm pays about a third of the total cost. I pay about $200 a month just for me - and I have the 'better' choice of the three - I didn't opt for the Cadillac plan. This is ordinary for my industry. There's no "shopping around" to be done.

    Fortunately, my job pays well enough that I can easily afford that $200, which is not so for those who earn less, nor for those whose companies do NOT provide group insurance and who would have to pay the cost of a full individual plan - about $4-6k annually, if you can get it. Hence the need for government involvement - and reduction of the profit motive.
    So you pay $200 for yourself plus $1000 for the rest of the family? Or is it $1000 total? Even if it's $1000 as opposed to $1200, it sounds like way too much (well, more than most, anyway).

    And there will allways be a profit motive. Government can't pay for anything, without taking it from individuals first (and nothing comes from corporations/companies/other entities either unless it comes from individuals first), and they have to at a _minimum_ recover their overhead.
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