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  1. #1361  
    Obama has provided his outlines for what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for being signed into law.
  2. #1362  
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #1363  
    Seems like not so much of an endorsement as a "wish list" for enacting 4 specific provisions of the bill. But this I found interesting:

    The Senate Finance Committee’s bill includes an excise tax on high-cost health insurance plans. Like any tax, the excise tax will raise federal revenues, but it has additional advantages for the health care system that are essential. The excise tax will help curtail the growth of private health insurance premiums by creating incentives to limit the costs of plans to a tax-free amount. In addition, as employers and health plans redesign their benefits to reduce health care premiums, cash wages will increase. Analysis of the Senate Finance Committee’s proposal suggests that the excise tax on high-cost insurance plans would increase workers’ take-home pay by more than $300 billion over the next decade.
    If I'm reading this right, a tax that the bill relies on to help offset budget deficits is the same tax that they expect will curtail premiums as employers and insurance companies begin to trim costs to below the taxable limit. In other words, the tax will either work to curtail high premium costs and, in effect reduce the expected tax revenue. Or, it will work in raising tax revenue but will not reduce premium costs.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #1365  
    Oh thank goodness! And I was thinking that we'd actually have to pay for this massive expansion of service!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #1366  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Oh thank goodness! And I was thinking that we'd actually have to pay for this massive expansion of service!
    It seems you chose not to actually read the item....but I guess consistency is a good thing.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #1367  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It seems you chose not to actually read the item....but I guess consistency is a good thing.
    It seems, once again, that you assumed wrong. Ditto on the consistency gratz!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7.    #1368  
    Do you really, personally believe that this will save everyone money and give us better coverage and cover more people?

    Do you use a Palm Pixi? You might need to bring it back to Sprint. I think it might be leaking Pixi Dust.
    Last edited by Technologic 2; 12/01/2009 at 10:55 PM.
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #1369  
    RealClearPolitics - Video - Reid Compares Health Care Opponents To Supporters Of Slavery

    Republicans are sexist racists who want sick people to die quickly. Ironically, they're also being blamed for inciting hatred and intolerance through inflammatory speech.
  9. #1370  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    [url= - Video - Reid Compares Health Care Opponents To Supporters Of Slavery[/url]

    Republicans are sexist racists who want sick people to die quickly. Ironically, they're also being blamed for inciting hatred and intolerance through inflammatory speech.
    Of course, he did not claim that Republicans were racists, or would have supported slavery...merely that the tactic of continually saying "we've got to slow down & protect the status quo" has been used by every group resistant to making positive change.

    But let's not interrupt a good distortion with facts.
  10. #1371  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Do you really, personally believe that this will save everyone money and give us better coverage and cover more people?

    Do you use a Palm Pixi? You might need to bring it back to Sprint. I think it might be leaking Pixi Dust.
    Well, I believe the non-partisan CBO before I believe the sound bytes from Glenn Beck.

    Fellas from the right constantly argue that competition is a good thing. So, yes, having a non-profit competitor to the private sector would seem a good thing. But just because the CBO agrees, you don't have to: you can choose to believe analyses from the Lewin group if you'd like...don't let the fact that they're owned by United Health stop you.
  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #1372  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course, he did not claim that Republicans were racists, or would have supported slavery...merely that the tactic of continually saying "we've got to slow down & protect the status quo" has been used by every group resistant to making positive change.

    But let's not interrupt a good distortion with facts.
    And how many different scenarios would have fit that same analogy? Yet, he chose slavery and women's suffrage. No, Bujin, the implication is clear.
  12. #1373  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    non-profit competitor
    ?
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #1374  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I believe the non-partisan CBO before I believe the sound bytes from Glenn Beck.

    Fellas from the right constantly argue that competition is a good thing. So, yes, having a non-profit competitor to the private sector would seem a good thing. But just because the CBO agrees, you don't have to: you can choose to believe analyses from the Lewin group if you'd like...don't let the fact that they're owned by United Health stop you.
    I agree, facts are important. Not just the one's that support our own claims.

    Lewin Group

    The Lewin Group is a policy research and consulting firm that provides economic analysis of health care and human services issues and policies. The organization has existed for about 40 years and has maintained a nonpartisan reputation through its many ownership changes that have occurred over the years. The Lewin Group was purchased in 2007 by Ingenix, a subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group, but maintains editorial and analytical independence from its parent company. The Lewin Group discloses its ownership in its reports and on its web site. While the Lewin Group does not advocate for or against any legislation, both Democratic and Republican politicians frequently cite the firm's studies to argue for and against various U.S. healthcare reform proposals.
    emphasis mine
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #1375  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I believe the non-partisan CBO before I believe the sound bytes from Glenn Beck.
    Glenn Beck doesn't ask you to believe him. He raises issues and questions, and invites you to investigate and make up your own mind. But I doubt you've spent any serious time watching or listening to his show, so I can understand why you wouldn't know that. It's much easier to just categorize him in your mind and then dismiss him, right?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #1376  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Glenn Beck doesn't ask you to believe him. He raises issues and questions, and invites you to investigate and make up your own mind. But I doubt you've spent any serious time watching or listening to his show, so I can understand why you wouldn't know that. It's much easier to just categorize him in your mind and then dismiss him, right?
    Except that his issues are frequently made up: PolitiFact | Glenn Beck's file

    So it's just silly to say he "raises issues and questions", if the issues are flat out false. And it's easy to accuse me of "categorizing" him, except that it's not about me...it's about whether folks just listen to him without checking to see if his issues actually represent anything close to reality. But I'm sure that PolitiFact is biased as well, right?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  16. Micael's Avatar
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    #1377  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Except that his issues are frequently made up: PolitiFact | Glenn Beck's file

    So it's just silly to say he "raises issues and questions", if the issues are flat out false. And it's easy to accuse me of "categorizing" him, except that it's not about me...it's about whether folks just listen to him without checking to see if his issues actually represent anything close to reality. But I'm sure that PolitiFact is biased as well, right?
    Well we know that you're always correct and have the best perspective on everything, unlike Glenn Beck, who is apparently wrong 100% of the time.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #1378  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Well we know that you're always correct and have the best perspective on everything, unlike Glenn Beck, who is apparently wrong 100% of the time.
    I simply provided evidence from PolitiFact to justify that Beck's positions are made up. Are you claiming that PolitiFact's evidence is wrong or biased? Or can you see that maybe blindly following his "questions and issues", based upon flatly incorrect information, isn't the best idea?

    Or is it just more comfortable for you to just turn it into a personal attack against me?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  18. #1379  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I agree, facts are important. Not just the one's that support our own claims.
    Lewin Group
    Well, if I'm going to decide to believe a study from the non-partisan CBO, or one that claims impartiality but is wholly owned by the insurance industry, I'd tend to go with the CBO. You can choose otherwise, if it's convenient for you.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #1380  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    But I'm sure that PolitiFact is biased as well, right?
    Right. They are.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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