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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #1281  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yeah, that's why I said "just like always." So much for "change" huh? I'd bet those people who believed that empty mantra feel stupid.

    KAM
    What they meant by change was: more change from your pockets to thiers.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #1282  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What they meant by change was: more change from your pockets to thiers.
    Or, pass the bills and you'll get change in return.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #1283  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    It should be pointed out that even proof of citizenship means nothing. A citizenship requirement will never pass the Senate floor. At the most would be a proof of legal residency. And, as I've said before, if health care reform is passed and then followed by amnesty, most of those who are illegal immigrants now will be legal residents then. Nothing else about there situation will have changed.
    So, if this gets passed with the language they're proposing, even if it does seem to imply that illegals will not be covered, they will in fact meet the criteria for coverage. Nice. What's the current estimate on thier numbers?

    And there still won't be any rationing, eh?
    I'd be interested in seeing what percentage of people think Congress has even read the proposal, let alone understands it.
    Can't blame them really, the way this thing has been handled. 2000+ pages of legal-sleeze dropped 2-3 days before it goes to a vote.... I know I couldn't read it based on that heads up. My adult adhd would force me off to other things.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4.    #1284  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Can't blame them really, the way this thing has been handled. 2000+ pages of legal-sleeze dropped 2-3 days before it goes to a vote.... I know I couldn't read it based on that heads up.
    They don't have to read it. Organizing for America knows whats in it and they said it is good! You WILL like it. It WILL be revenue neutral. There is NO rationing (except what is not necessary, and they will tell you what is not necessary)
  5.    #1285  
    Illegal aliens will NOT be covered. So when they go to an emergency room and tell the hospital that they are an illegal alien they won't get treated. Now...the hospital can't ask if they are illegal, they can't require id, so we will have to depend on the alien to be honest and not show up in the ER
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #1286  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Illegal aliens will NOT be covered. So when they go to an emergency room and tell the hospital that they are an illegal alien they won't get treated. Now...the hospital can't ask if they are illegal, they can't require id, so we will have to depend on the alien to be honest and not show up in the ER
    ... and treatment will fall under the "public option". This won't affect Medicare or Medicaid, of course.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #1287  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Illegal aliens will NOT be covered. So when they go to an emergency room and tell the hospital that they are an illegal alien they won't get treated. Now...the hospital can't ask if they are illegal, they can't require id, so we will have to depend on the alien to be honest and not show up in the ER
    Let me ask you something, duck. What would you do if an illegal immigrant child came to the ER with meningitis? Send him out in the street? If you want to make sure illegals don't get treated with some humanity, then do something about the illegals. Don't expect me to do your pruning for you. I treat illegals just like I do every other patient. All you guys talk big...I'd pay money to see you put in the situation of actually following your own rules when faced with sick and dying people. You're willing to blow off steam about it but you would lack the cojones to follow through...or you are a worthless human being. Stop talking in the abstract, stop the talking points and try and do something for society for once...and not your own self. And everyone from another country that's weighed in here has noted the same thing....you lack humanity. That's all there is to it.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #1288  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Let me ask you something, duck. What would you do if an illegal immigrant child came to the ER with meningitis? Send him out in the street?
    In effect, that's what you're asking us to do to our own citizens based on the necessary rationing, massive reduction in screenings, etc. etc. People will die because of your health care bill. I wish we could give healthcare to all of the people who need it, in the entire world. Unfortunately, that's not possible.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #1289  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Everyone, Clemgrad included, seems to think that this decision is oppressive to women. His post stated that "the government seems to be targeting women, not men". "The government" is the task force and for that to be true, the 8 women members of the task force are targeting women for cost-savings reasons. That is irrational. In fact, it's ridiculous. And even calling the task force "the government" is ridiculous. Not one of the members work for the government, or even live in the DC area. All are prominent academic physicians who are only interested in what is best for the population....not what is best for any political party, believe it or not.

    Now do you understand?
    Been away for a few days, some times you just gotta take a break from this place.

    Davidra.....I was just making a joke because the post that I was commenting on was saying that us Republican types were going to say there was a conspiracy to kill everyone because of the recent issues involving mammograms and pap-smears. Well, since both of these involve women, I was just joking that "they" were only trying to kill women, not men. And don't get all huffy and say I shouldn't be making fun of such things....just ease up for a sec.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  10. #1290  
    I do have a question for all the smart folks in here (like davidra, daThomas, zelgo, etc) because this just doesn't make sense to me. So....without getting sarcastic....please explain how a bill can be be properly analyzed when you factor in income for 10 years (taxes starting in 2010), but only count 6 years (starting in 2014)of expenses? Isn't that going to be slightly skewed? Is it a little deceiving? Why not compare 10 years of income to offset 10 years of expenses? And please don't say we will save the taxes collected in the first 4 years of the plan to have on hand for those 6 years of expenses. Please don't say that.

    Isn't that like me making a budget for 2010, but factoring in my income for the last 4 or 5 months of 2009 so that my 12 months of expenses in 2010 are offset by 2010 income and those last 4 months of 2009 and saying "see, my budget is looking right on target". What would be wrong with that budget? Would that be a budget that would be recommended for a household or business? If not, why is it then a prudent way to run the Federal budget?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  11. #1291  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    In effect, that's what you're asking us to do to our own citizens based on the necessary rationing, massive reduction in screenings, etc. etc. People will die because of your health care bill. I wish we could give healthcare to all of the people who need it, in the entire world. Unfortunately, that's not possible.
    By all means, please enlighten us as to how people will die because of the health care bill? Given thousands of people are dying each year because they don't have any health insurance, just exactly what medical knowledge do you have that makes you think you know what you're talking about? Are you totally not paying attention? Breast cancer specialists are telling you that mammograms have been oversold, they are not tests that are as accurate as we should have, and the task force would have made these recommendations regardless of any health care bill. They have NEVER recommended men be screened for prostate cancer. They are NOT the government, they are an expert panel of smart doctors. And I just have a sneaking suspicion that they know a whole lot more than you do about what is best for the health of the population. Massive screening reductions....what a joke. And please...examples of the "necessary rationing" that's going to kill people?
  12. #1292  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    By all means, please enlighten us as to how people will die because of the health care bill? Given thousands of people are dying each year because they don't have any health insurance, just exactly what medical knowledge do you have that makes you think you know what you're talking about? Are you totally not paying attention? Breast cancer specialists are telling you that mammograms have been oversold, they are not tests that are as accurate as we should have, and the task force would have made these recommendations regardless of any health care bill. They have NEVER recommended men be screened for prostate cancer. They are NOT the government, they are an expert panel of smart doctors. And I just have a sneaking suspicion that they know a whole lot more than you do about what is best for the health of the population. Massive screening reductions....what a joke. And please...examples of the "necessary rationing" that's going to kill people?
    *my emphasis

    Doc, a couple of questions if I may. Don't worry I dont expect you to answer them.

    1. If this panel of smart doctors says I should get an H1N1 shot because they know best about whats good for me and the rest of the population, and I choose not to get one, does that make me stupid or indicate that I know what is best for me?

    2.If a person you had never met but had seen on TV showed up at your door and said if you gave him half of your annual salary he would use the money for the good of everyone, would you give it to him?
    If Yes, why?
    If No, why not?

    Thanks for playing. Anyone else want to answer?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  13.    #1293  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Let me ask you something, duck. What would you do if an illegal immigrant child came to the ER with meningitis? ...you lack humanity. That's all there is to it.
    Again, you speak without knowing what you are talking about. Check my post. I say we must treat illegal aliens (or anyone else who shows up needing emergency treatment) We already are...even without Obamacare
  14. #1294  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Again, you speak without knowing what you are talking about. Check my post. I say we must treat illegal aliens (or anyone else who shows up needing emergency treatment) We already are...even without Obamacare
    We don't "treat" people in emergency rooms for their chronic health care problems. We treat them for what happens when they don't have insurance and can't get regular primary care. For some reason you seem to think that just showing up unconcious from a diabetic coma and being admitted is a great way to take care of diabetics without insurance....instead of having them able to be followed by a doctor or NP who can prevent them from deteriorating. The ER is a crappy way of providing health care. It is not a system. And since you appear to be primarily worried about costs, it is by far the most costly way to provide care. So yes, I'm delighted you are in support of providing medical care to the uninsured. Now we need to make it much less expensive by providing them at least some kind of chronic care. Are you supporting that, or do you want to continue to throw away absurd amounts of money doing things the way we have been? And providing terrible care while we do it?
  15. #1295  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    *my emphasis

    Doc, a couple of questions if I may. Don't worry I dont expect you to answer them.

    1. If this panel of smart doctors says I should get an H1N1 shot because they know best about whats good for me and the rest of the population, and I choose not to get one, does that make me stupid or indicate that I know what is best for me?

    2.If a person you had never met but had seen on TV showed up at your door and said if you gave him half of your annual salary he would use the money for the good of everyone, would you give it to him?
    If Yes, why?
    If No, why not?

    Thanks for playing. Anyone else want to answer?
    1. No, that alone does not make you stupid (that requires paying attention to your other posts. ) Why do you think that anyone, anywhere, in any plan, would mandate that you get a flu shot? You get to make up your own mind about what you want to do or not to do. Patients deny themselves care every day that will cause them harm. As long as they are informed about the consequences, and they are an adult making that decision about themselves and not someone else, that's the way things should be. But I am fascinated about you knowledge about your own immune system and how exactly it is that you know what's best for you in terms of flu shots.
    2. That's a really accurate representation of the health care debate...NOT. If the majority of the country voted for change in the health care system, and it was going to cost me personally a marginally higher tax rate but provide care for millions of suffering people, I would be glad to pay that marginally higher tax rate. How you seem to think that this is half my money is beyond comprehension, misleading, and absurd. Unless, of course, you also want to stop supporting the military, the highway system, all public education, the post office, and all those public option payments for fire and police service. I think I'm smart enough to realize that those things are worth investing in, just like health care for all.
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1296  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Of course the alternative was McCain's let's keep everything the same....
    Yes, that was a very successful lie, that requires a gross level of ignorance to believe. Of course Millions did exactly that.

    The interesting part is how many of the destructive policies of the Last Bush Administration that President Obama happily continued and expanded--specifically, Reckless spending increased even more. The incredible hypocrisy of the leftists in Congress who complain about "out of control spending" and then turn around and ram the most reckless spending we've ever seen down the voters throats. Again--so much for "change." What they mean is that they do exactly what they accuse other of, but just claim that they "care" so its all ok.

    I've said it before--what President Bush did out of weakness and desperation, President Obama does eagerly. Both have pushed us towards economic ruin.

    The ignorant fools who bought into this "hope and change" joke are, or will soon realize exactly how naive and overly trusting they were.

    McCain...he's to blame as well--for running a campaign so pathetic, that a two-bit politician who hasn't accomplished much of anything professionally except career-climbing, beat him.

    KAM
  17. #1297  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    I've said it before--what President Bush did out of weakness and desperation, President Obama does eagerly. Both have pushed us towards economic ruin.

    KAM
    Tell you what....I'll bet you we will never end up in "economic ruin". The hyperbole from the conservatives on this board flies in the face of all reasonable economists and represent nothing but talking points. How can you not see that? What do you think would happen with no change in the system? You really think that would be better?
  18.    #1298  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    We don't "treat" people in emergency rooms for their chronic health care problems. ....instead of having them able to be followed by a doctor or NP who can prevent them from deteriorating. ...And since you appear to be primarily worried about costs, it is by far the most costly way to provide care....providing them at least some kind of chronic care.
    Since we should be more worried about the humanitarian way of treating people regardless of what it cost those who "can afford it", why should we stop at healthcare?

    How about food, shelter, clothing, transportation, education? That's right we do already have programs to help with all this. So why do we have so many people in poverty? We have had public education for a long time. Why are there still so many uneducated? Do you think people going to Private Schools get a better education than those in Public Schools? Do you think people who live in their own homes have better living conditions than those in Public Housing? Than why should Public Option Healthcare be any different?

    We do have a problem getting some people quality healthcare. We need reform of health insurance! We need reform of how hospitals/doctors charge people. (I was charged $150 for an E/R to "administer" 2 tylenol pills to me + $15 for the pills). There are ways of fixing the system without a government takeover.
  19. #1299  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    How about food, shelter, clothing, transportation, education? That's right we do already have programs to help with all this. So why do we have so many people in poverty? We have had public education for a long time. Why are there still so many uneducated? Do you think people going to Private Schools get a better education than those in Public Schools? Do you think people who live in their own homes have better living conditions than those in Public Housing? Than why should Public Option Healthcare be any different?

    We do have a problem getting some people quality healthcare. We need reform of health insurance! We need reform of how hospitals/doctors charge people. (I was charged $150 for an E/R to "administer" 2 tylenol pills to me + $15 for the pills). There are ways of fixing the system without a government takeover.
    Because dying or living in pain is different than having a car. And what are you smoking? There IS no Public Option healthcare for millions and millions of people. The ER is not public option healthcare, it's paid for by your insurance company. The funny thing is that you don't see the irony in your own post. The reason you are paying that much for two tylenol pills is exactly because that ER has to eat the costs of caring for uninsured people. You want to fix that? Arrange it so the uninsured can get decent care outside of the ER.

    Really. Pay attention.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #1300  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    By all means, please enlighten us as to how people will die because of the health care bill?
    I just said "how". It's called common sense. Nuff said, no doctorate required.

    The rest of this has been rehashed over and over again. If you refuse to get it because of your blinders, I can't fix that.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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