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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1161  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    This seems identical to the massive pack of lies about going to war in Iraq and keeping that war going...yet, interestingly, I heard not a peep from you about "incompetent buffoons who run Congress" at that time or about the last Congress.

    Sounds like a bit of hypocrisy.
    Well, ignoring for the moment that the situations are COMPLETELY different, what makes you so sure that I cheered Congress NOT being incompetent buffoons? Perhaps you don't understand what hypocrisy is.

    One reason you might not have heard me say anything about Congress in the past...is that I wasn't a member of this forum then.

    Of course if you bothered to ask, instead of trying to sidetrack from the issue I was talking about by bringing up a TOTALLY unrelated topic, you'd find that I'm not too happy with what Congress has done in the past either. But why ask a question when a distracting, completely different topic that is irrelevant to what's going on will suffice.

    I am glad however that you are acknowledging that this "reform" is in fact a pack of lies.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/18/2009 at 01:00 PM.
  2. #1162  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Because you say that everything the gov't does is an automatic fail. That as silly as me saying everything that a person from south carolina does is an automatic fail.
    Well.....their is one Federal Government....correct? So you are comparing one entity to how many private or stock owned companies in our country? That's like saying since Maydoff stole money from his clients, every person who manages money is likely stealing as well. ***? I don't have statistics to back this up, but I don't think there are many companies as fraudalent as Enron. Kind of a silly comparison. There are very few examples of large scale government run programs that are efficiently run. Key word, efficiently. Everyone loves Medicare, but it is going bankrupt but that doesn't matter since I guess the government will just raise taxes to force more money into it so more money can be wasted. Sounds efficient to me!
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  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1163  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Everyone loves Medicare, but it is going bankrupt but that doesn't matter since I guess the government will just raise taxes to force more money into it so more money can be wasted. Sounds efficient to me!
    Did Anyone happen to notice that this OBVIOUS waste in Medicare isn't addressed for all these years? Why does it only come up as part of an attempt to justify even bigger Government programs? It reveals the blatant dishonesty. If this waste is so obvious, why wait, why not save the taxpayer billions of dollars today? The answer is they don't care about waste--if so they would have done something about it. Its much more useful as a carrot to bait the people who do care about such things into going along with their other abuses.

    And herein the whole thing is really exposed. Who doesn't want "free healthcare"? Few people. Of course people who get "Free" medicare want to keep it, why wouldn't they? The government pretends that they are giving something to the Elderly (the same for the poor, etc) and of course anyone who is literally dependent on the government is going to keep voting to maintain that status quo

    This is of course why corrupt politicians are so eager to create more and more of these sorts of programs, because everyone "loves" them. What they don't mention too often is that these programs aren't only not free...they are massive burdens with untold negative consequences that go along with the benefits. Things like the financial insolvency for example.

    However, my fear is that they are actually stupid enough to not realize that at some point the game is up, and that time might be right now. We've had irresponsible government spending for...well as long as most people have been alive and probably before that, but apparently people think you can just keep going and that there is no tipping point.

    Well, that tipping point WILL occur, its just a matter of how fast we race towards it.

    KAM
  4. #1164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Maybe I'm not being clear. You're a great guy, Clem, and I know you're passionate about this. I invite you to take a moment and please review this study. It's not partisan, it has data clearly tabled and methodology defined in detail. It doesn't prove or disprove my position, but I think it's an eye opener for both of us.
    It's not partisan? Do you have any idea what the EPI is? Have you ever heard of Rick Berman? Try looking here at your non-partisan group. This is almost as bad as the references that KAM keeps coming up with. If you guys really believe that those references (like Real Clear Politics) are unbiased, you need some counseling. You can find anything to support your position, and "anything" is just what you are both getting. Wake up. Trying to support your position with biased position pieces and ranting and raving about how "reform is a pack of lies". KAM, your references are a pack of lies. I would rather not have congress involved in it either. I'd rather have a group of professionals who know what they're talking about do it. But this is the governmental system you cherish, you support, you think is the greatest system on earth.....so quit bellyaching.
  5. #1165  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Did Anyone happen to notice that this OBVIOUS waste in Medicare isn't addressed for all these years? Why does it only come up as part of an attempt to justify even bigger Government programs? It reveals the blatant dishonesty. If this waste is so obvious, why wait, why not save the taxpayer billions of dollars today? The answer is they don't care about waste--if so they would have done something about it. Its much more useful as a carrot to bait the people who do care about such things into going along with their other abuses.



    This is of course why corrupt politicians are so eager to create more and more of these sorts of programs, because everyone "loves" them. What they don't mention too often is that these programs aren't only not free...they are massive burdens with untold negative consequences that go along with the benefits. Things like the financial insolvency for example.


    KAM
    The massive burdens in health care spending have little to do with Medicare or Medicaid. They are almost exclusively due to the private insurance/independent provider method of providing health care. Please try to get it through your head that less than a quarter of current coverage is provided by Medicare and Medicaid.

    Yes, I agree that the past 8 years of the Bush administration, nothing was significantly done to diminish fraud, which has increased dramatically over that time. Luckily, now something is being done.

    The government paid $47 billion (that's billion with a B) in false or questionable Medicare claims last year, according to a new federal report obtained by the Associated Press.

    The report shows a dramatic increase in Medicare fraud from previous years. In 2008, the government paid an estimated $17 billion in improper claims. So what caused this number to nearly triple in the past year? The most likely culprit is not more fraud attempts, writes the AP, but the increased scrutiny on Medicare claims. The Department of Health and Human Services's new stricter methodology is part of the Obama Administration's effort to crack down on Medicare fraud.

    The report mentioned several new government strategies for combating fraud, but also warned that challenges lie ahead, reports the AP. We've written before about initiatives to combat Medicare fraud, such as the Health Care Fraud Prevention and Enforcement Action Team (HEAT). The new report suggested that such "aggressive actions" on the part of the government had yet to yield up significant savings, but were still in their early stages, according to the AP. In his testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Deputy HHS Secretary Bill Corr estimated that anti-fraud, waste, and abuse activities had returned about $13.1 billion to the Medicare trust fund.

    Fraudulent or questionable Medicare claims come in many varieties. False claims can include everything from prescriptions from dead doctors, treatments for imaginary patients, and requests for things like special shoes for diabetics that have had their legs amputated, according to the AP.

    In an effort to reduce fraud and make way for "honest budgeting," writes the AP,

    Obama is expected to announce new initiatives this week to help crack down on Medicare fraud, including a government-wide Web site aimed at providing a fuller account of health-care spending and improper payments made by various agencies. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services also will launch an interactive Web site next month that will allow users to track Medicare payment information.

    With the Medicare budget already strained, it’s important that every available dollar is going toward providing care for those in need. Increased scrutiny of Medicare payments and initiatives like HEAT are a step forward in protecting and preserving Medicare.
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1166  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The massive burdens in health care spending have little to do with Medicare or Medicaid. They are almost exclusively due to the private insurance/independent provider method of providing health care. Please try to get it through your head that less than a quarter of current coverage is provided by Medicare and Medicaid.
    GOVERNMENT spending is what I'm talking about. If some individual spends a billion dollars of their own money on medical care, it is none of my business.

    However, as you may recall I've stated that I also blame Insurance companies as another indirect payer schemer as being a root cause of this problem.

    Its funny however, that you wish to exclude the single largest payer of Medical expenses (the government) in our entire nation from the whole problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, I agree that the past 8 years of the Bush administration, nothing was significantly done to diminish fraud, which has increased dramatically over that time. Luckily, now something is being done.
    Um...yeah, nothing has been done to diminish fraud in Medicare for oh...44 years or so. But its all the Bush administration's fault. But OTHERS are partisan...sure. However, I'm willing to blame whoever is guilty of this failure, and not pick and choose. All of them--Great, throw them all out.

    But of course your claim is ridiculous nonsense in the first place. The same Bureaucrats and wasteful government entities are running the real show either way.

    Something is being done? Really? Clock ticking here at 11 Months now, and with something so Obvious, what's the hold up?
    Where was that Obama Bill coming from the Senate between 2004 and 2008? Clearly if this was such a major issue, he would have addressed that right? Where was Nancy Pelosi who has been in Congress for years and years? Reid? Any of the rest of them Republican or Democrat?

    So, what you claim really isn't true is it? You want to point fingers at the Bush administration and ignore the fact that NONE of them have done a thing to cut this OBVIOUS waste. Your inability to think beyond those partisan lines explains a lot--you apparently cannot find any way to side against Democrats if Republicans are available for blame.

    We're sitting on another year of NOT cutting waste and why? You're Democrat Champions have TOTAL power over the Legislative process and don't need a single Republican do make this happen, and it still isn't happening? Why isn't President Obama demanding that this wasteful spending be cut IMMEDIATELY?

    They answer is that they are frauds, who don't care one bit about "progress" or "reform" or cutting waste--they are just a bunch of power-grabbing politicians willing to sacrifice the good of the nation for their own benefit, and I don't believe you are stupid enough to believe them, so instead what it is? You are willing to accept this because you think some good will come of it. Good luck with that.

    KAM
  7. #1167  
    I take it that everyone knows about SEIU and its part in ObamaCare. We also know he said he would not allow lobbyists to be a part of his government or to ... you know the rest. Well, take a look at what SEIU does best: there are just so many links about their method of operation.

    And back to illegal lobbying: Hot Air » Blog Archive » HA exclusive: ATR, AWF demand probe of SEIU’s Stern for illegal lobbying - there are bunches of tweets by Stern stating he was lobbying.

    Openness? Transparency? Goodness.
  8. #1168  
    I take it that everyone knows about SEIU and its part in ObamaCare. We also know he said he would not allow lobbyists to be a part of his government or to ... you know the rest. Well, take a look at what SEIU does best: there are just so many links about their method of operation.

    And back to illegal lobbying: Hot Air » Blog Archive » HA exclusive: ATR, AWF demand probe of SEIU’s Stern for illegal lobbying - there are bunches of tweets by Stern stating he was lobbying.

    Openness? Transparency? Goodness.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1169  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    This is almost as bad as the references that KAM keeps coming up with. If you guys really believe that those references (like Real Clear Politics) are unbiased, you need some counseling. You can find anything to support your position, and "anything" is just what you are both getting. Wake up. Trying to support your position with biased position pieces and ranting and raving about how "reform is a pack of lies". KAM, your references are a pack of lies. I would rather not have congress involved in it either. I'd rather have a group of professionals who know what they're talking about do it. But this is the governmental system you cherish, you support, you think is the greatest system on earth.....so quit bellyaching.
    Real Clear Politics is Biased? They are a Right-wing front group huh? Actually you are wrong--they are a clearing house for all sorts of opinions.

    So, what you are really saying is that anything that supports your opinion is true and anything that doesn't is false. Wow, that is amazing logic.
    Common liberal thinking--"I'm right and you are wrong, so no amount of reality can change that."

    You seem to live in some sort of fantasy where your views are NOT position pieces. Yours are objective, but those opposing you are not. That explains why you have an inability to even CONSIDER the damage that these plans are likely to do, because you have declared them false.

    Guess what...ALL arguments are from some position--on either side. I'm not sure how someone ends up with your mindset, but essentially what you are saying is that you can advocate whatever you want, citing whatever opinion or views you wish, and we should accept that as objective, and we on the other hand cannot cite any sources that present our side. It's amazing to hear someone actually forwarding this obviously flawed notion.

    I literally have a hard time believing you can possibly believe what you are saying is true. I know you aren't stupid, but this illogic you are forwarding is ridiculous.

    Let me deal with some other flaws in what you've stated here.

    No--government being involved in healthcare is NOT the Governmental system I cherish--its a damned Statist distortion of it. Typical liberal thinking--screw things up and then blame the system you violate.

    You can call these economic facts lies, but it won't change reality. People are learning more and more about what a total farce this "reform" bill is. It is no secret that these government programs are not financially viable and they aren't doing anything to change that--in fact, it is likely they are making it worse. You've admitted many times that you are unconcerned with these realities, so I don't expect that you change your mind, but you can't deny that they exist.

    KAM
  10. #1170  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    GOVERNMENT spending is what I'm talking about. If some individual spends a billion dollars of their own money on medical care, it is none of my business.

    However, as you may recall I've stated that I also blame Insurance companies as another indirect payer schemer as being a root cause of this problem.

    Its funny however, that you wish to exclude the single largest payer of Medical expenses (the government) in our entire nation from the whole problem.




    Um...yeah, nothing has been done to diminish fraud in Medicare for oh...44 years or so. But its all the Bush administration's fault. But OTHERS are partisan...sure. However, I'm willing to blame whoever is guilty of this failure, and not pick and choose. All of them--Great, throw them all out.

    But of course your claim is ridiculous nonsense in the first place. The same Bureaucrats and wasteful government entities are running the real show either way.

    Something is being done? Really? Clock ticking here at 11 Months now, and with something so Obvious, what's the hold up?
    Where was that Obama Bill coming from the Senate between 2004 and 2008? Clearly if this was such a major issue, he would have addressed that right? Where was Nancy Pelosi who has been in Congress for years and years? Reid? Any of the rest of them Republican or Democrat?

    So, what you claim really isn't true is it? You want to point fingers at the Bush administration and ignore the fact that NONE of them have done a thing to cut this OBVIOUS waste. Your inability to think beyond those partisan lines explains a lot--you apparently cannot find any way to side against Democrats if Republicans are available for blame.

    We're sitting on another year of NOT cutting waste and why? You're Democrat Champions have TOTAL power over the Legislative process and don't need a single Republican do make this happen, and it still isn't happening? Why isn't President Obama demanding that this wasteful spending be cut IMMEDIATELY?

    They answer is that they are frauds, who don't care one bit about "progress" or "reform" or cutting waste--they are just a bunch of power-grabbing politicians willing to sacrifice the good of the nation for their own benefit, and I don't believe you are stupid enough to believe them, so instead what it is? You are willing to accept this because you think some good will come of it. Good luck with that.

    KAM
    Did you actually read the quote? Do you really think congress, no matter who is in control, has primary authority over CMS? It's the administration. You know, Health and Human Services. It is the administration's job (and the HHS secretary) to administer and police Medicare. And Obama is doing exactly that. HHS has developed a series of new programs to combat fraud. Would you like to know how many were developed by Bush/Tommy Thompson/Mike Leavitt in 8 years? Hint: you don't need to have any fingers.
  11. #1171  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Real Clear Politics is Biased? They are a Right-wing front group huh? Actually you are wrong--they are a clearing house for all sorts of opinions.

    KAM
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. As Keith Obermann said recently, if research to prove someone wrong takes 30 seconds on Wikipedia, that pretty much sums up the depth of the individual:

    RealClearPolitics is a Chicago-based political news aggregator, a non-partisan[2]polling data aggregator, and conservative-leaning[3][4][5] blog. The site aggregates columns and news stories as well as election related transcripts[6] and videos.[7] The site also carries the most recent poll data,[8] and compiles averages of major political polls on various elections throughout the United States to give a national view of the race.[9]

    The site was founded in 2000 by former options trader John McIntyre and former advertising agency account executive Tom Bevan.[10][11][12] Forbes Media bought a controlling interest in the site in 2007.[13]
    Contents
    [hide
    Philosophy

    In an interview with the conservative magazine Human Events, McIntyre described the philosophy behind the Web site as based on "freedom" and "common-sense values." Said Bevan, "We think debate on the issues is a very important thing. We post a variety of opinions." He further stated, "we have a frustration all conservatives have", which is "the bias in media against conservatives, religious conservatives, [and] Christian conservatives."[10]
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1172  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I take it that everyone knows about SEIU and its part in ObamaCare. We also know he said he would not allow lobbyists to be a part of his government or to ... you know the rest.
    Candidate Obama proudly stated his connection with SEIU--one of the most active labor lobbying groups around. He's completely in bed with them, and admits to consulting with them on things like Healthcare. HE OPENLY ADMITS THIS, so you can't blame him for that. This Stern character is a regular visitor to the White House--22 times I believe since Obama took office. Of course, this isn't transparency, because he's not announcing that he's doing what's best for his special interests and not the Country.

    SEIU is pulling the President's Strings, and they BRAG about it. Now, all you "reformers" out there go ahead and justify how a labor organization of around 2-2.5 million people deserves Presidential Access like this, while the other 280+ billion of us wait to see what sort of deals they cut between them.

    Of course, who can we (the American people) blame except ourselves. We were the ones MORONIC enough to elect this Chicago politician, ignoring all the very big warning signals and blindly buying into "Hope and Change" instead of ever bothering to ask what the hell that meant. No, instead we just hopped on the Bandwagon buying into lie after lie after lie.

    KAM
  13. #1173  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I take it that everyone knows about SEIU and its part in ObamaCare. We also know he said he would not allow lobbyists to be a part of his government or to ... you know the rest. Well, take a look at what SEIU does best: there are just so many links about their method of operation.

    And back to illegal lobbying: Hot Air » Blog Archive » HA exclusive: ATR, AWF demand probe of SEIU’s Stern for illegal lobbying - there are bunches of tweets by Stern stating he was lobbying.

    Openness? Transparency? Goodness.
    Unbiased references? Goodness.
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1174  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. As Keith Obermann said recently, if research to prove someone wrong takes 30 seconds on Wikipedia, that pretty much sums up the depth of the individual:
    Well, if that Paragon of Through Keith Olberman said it, then it must be true.

    Depth? From someone who is living in denial of all facts that don't line up with his WANTS.

    Real Clear politics has articles from sources such as the Huffington Post, the New York times, the Nation, the New Republic, ABC, CBS, NBC, the Washington post, etc, etc, etc as well as more conservative leaning publications.

    Just today we've got articles from Senator John Kerry and Maureen Dowd, and many other liberal authors.

    So, you're just wrong. Of course, having a Balanced slate of authors and sources from the left right and middle is probably something that you are unaccustomed to. I know this is hard to accept for those who have benefited from a liberal-controlled mass media for so long, but those days are gone. Sorry, other people have a voice now too.

    OBVIOUSLY an article written by a Conservative is going to be from a Conservative Perspective, and a liberal a liberal (although you apparently think that means biased and unbiased).

    KAM
  15. #1175  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, if that Paragon of Through Keith Olberman said it, then it must be true.

    Depth? From someone who is living in denial of all facts that don't line up with his WANTS.

    Real Clear politics has articles from sources such as the Huffington Post, the New York times, the Nation, the New Republic, ABC, CBS, NBC, the Washington post, etc, etc, etc as well as more conservative leaning publications.

    Just today we've got articles from Senator John Kerry and Maureen Dowd, and many other liberal authors.

    So, you're just wrong. Of course, having a Balanced slate of authors and sources from the left right and middle is probably something that you are unaccustomed to. I know this is hard to accept for those who have benefited from a liberal-controlled mass media for so long, but those days are gone. Sorry, other people have a voice now too.

    OBVIOUSLY an article written by a Conservative is going to be from a Conservative Perspective, and a liberal a liberal (although you apparently think that means biased and unbiased).

    KAM
    It's fine with me if you want to ignore the basic philosophy of Real Clear Politics, when it's absolutely clear what their position is. Do they include material from a variety of sources? Yes. Does that make them unbiased? No. Their philosophy is clear. They think media is biased against conservatives, including Christian conservatives. And you think that is "unbiased"??
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1176  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Nope, just recognizing hypocrisy.
    Again, apparently you aren't aware of what hypocrisy means, or are just running your mouth having failed to make an actual connection between two events which would define the instance of alleged hypocrisy.

    You can't compare a non-statement and a statement and find hypocrisy. I never condemned Genocide on this board either, so in your mind if I ever spoke against it I would be a hypocrite. Such is the sort of brilliance that is not.

    But go ahead and continue--its about the level of nonsense I've come to expect here.

    KAM
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1177  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It's fine with me if you want to ignore the basic philosophy of Real Clear Politics, when it's absolutely clear what their position is. Do they include material from a variety of sources? Yes. Does that make them unbiased? No. Their philosophy is clear. They think media is biased against conservatives, including Christian conservatives. And you think that is "unbiased"??
    Actually, given that the media has all sorts of bias, someone stating that they do, isn't bias.

    Exactly how is this "philosophy" coming into play? This Philosophy that prompts them to include views from all parts of the political spectrum. Oh yes--I see it now--that is clearly biased.

    What the does this "basic philosophy" have to do with ANYTHING I've posted which are from various sources like Newsweek, and the Washington post.

    Stop with the distractions. You just want to deny any view that you disagree with and are grasping at straws do accomplish this, NOT addressing ANYTHING that is stated in these articles.

    Here, I'll do the same: Anything and everything you ever said or stated, or references is false, because it comes from a biased source and is untrue. Wow, that's the way to debate. Cover your ears and say "LALALALALA"

    KAM
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1178  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Hypocrisy raises the level of nonsense.
    So, does irrationality, so thanks!

    KAM
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1179  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    How did Religious Right organizations get all the White House Access during Bush's years? How did Energy companies get access to the Cheney? How did a gay male prostitute get access to Bush's White House?

    It ALL about money with EVERY politician. If you supported the election of the President, gave him lots of money, and represent alot of people--you get access.

    You make it seem so Good vs. Evil--in reality they ALL do it. EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN--Democratic, Republican, Independent. Every one. So, pointing fingers at one means absolutely nothing.

    As for the gay prostitute, he probably got in because he had a lover somewhere high in the administration. Wonder who it was?

    Seems like the SEIU is the new Acorn--let's find a liberal scapegoat to blame all problems on!
    Yes, those facts are just so bothersome aren't they. Isn't it HORRIBLE when someone points out these things?

    Yet, you seem to support a politician who engages in direct hypocrisy. The great Barack Obama who campaigned on no-lobbyists, transparency and whatever other lies, is deeply engaged with special interests and is engaged in all sorts of closed-door dealings. So, clearly you are ok with hypocrites.

    Is that why you called me a hypocrite--do you want to be my friend?

    KAM
  20. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1180  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I think that often repeated line "choose not to buy their own coverage" is (SADLY) hilarious.

    When it costs a family of four $17,000 (including $10,000 paid by employer for insurance, $4000 paid by worker for insurance, and $3000 paid by worker for non-covered health things), "choosing" not to by insurance is just like saying I "choose" not to buy a Rolls Royce.
    Of course this is an example of you picking a case that is NOT someone's choice, in an attempt to deny that many people in fact choose not to purchase health insurance.

    Hilarious, again--do you mean factual? I know that it is hard to accept facts that you dislike, but please give it a try.

    Obviously not ALL uninsured have this choice, but many do, so stop trying to deny facts.

    KAM

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