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  1. #1121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    lol! that knucklehead! Dang those Republicans!
    It was sarcasm, and you can't see the stupidity of using a car that consumes 15l/100km (and dont even speeds like cars that consume an half of this...)? hmmm
  2. #1122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I just realized that zelgo omits the word Socialists when he talks about the ruskies. He did say USSR at least. Thanks for bringing the discussion full circle though. Socialism doesn't work. We should look to the Soviets, and their economic model, as evidence.
    Again, that was a variant of socialism known as "Real Comunism" (even I don't agree with the name...). Russia have known many and very different socialisms for example Stalinism, Trotskism/Leninism...

    But ok, you just can think of two binary options? That's ok for me... But you're wrong.
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/19/2009 at 05:29 PM.
  3. #1123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ahh, gotcha. More evil corporations. Right.

    daThomas, who else should we have gone to to build our weapons? China?
    I don't think you give them a giant tax break on top of a big gov't check, which is what happened.
  4. #1124  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Funny, when any group gets single-payer (like Medicare and the VA), the recipients will fight tooth-and-nail to keep it.
    Hmm thats because its better right?

    I totally agree with you. Just because Russia did it all wrong decades ago, doesn't mean we have to do the same, on the contrary, we can learn from others mistakes. Yes, and wild capitalism is a big mistake so is the abcense of public structures that assures people with healthcare/education/justice.
  5. #1125  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    How this has anything to do with healthcare, of course, is baffling.

    Is it the old "socialism didn't work in USSR so socialized medicine won't work here" angle? That's siily reasoning because "Socialized" single-payer medicine works in nearly all industrialized countries right now--and WAY better and cheaper than the system we have now.

    We'll have single payer here in about 10-20 years. With 77 million baby boomers becoming 65, the only way Medicare can sustain itself is if we become a single-payer nation. Medicare isn't going anywhere because the elderly, who vote alot, will make sure of that. If we have to keep Medicare, then we have to have single-payer.

    Funny, when any group gets single-payer (like Medicare and the VA), the recipients will fight tooth-and-nail to keep it.
    It won't take that long. I said that about ten years ago. Now that more and more middle class voting taxpayers are losing their insurance, or watching their premiums climb, with no change in health care costs, the major issue is whether we go ahead and start a reasonable health care system now, or we wait until we have a further economic catastrophe. And the aging population has something to do with it, but not all. Even with maintaining Medicare for just the elderly, it's the working class that will suffer as health care becomes even more unavailable. Those people will make the decision....and it doesn't include health savings accounts (which are bogus....how'd you like to rely on the stock market for your health care over the past two years?) or babying private insurance companies. Our current course is unsustainable. That's a fact, not a guess. Even republicans will admit that. So the issue is what to do, and there is no way for-profit will survive given the current circumstances. It will happen. Smart people will realize that now is the time to make it happen, and not when we're in a catastrophic situation.
  6. #1126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I just realized that zelgo omits the word Socialists when he talks about the ruskies. He did say USSR at least. Thanks for bringing the discussion full circle though. Socialism doesn't work. We should look to the Soviets, and their economic model, as evidence.
    Or we could look at the other industrialized nations and there "Social" healthcare systems which function better than ours.
  7.    #1127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow, you have it so wrong, zelgo. How can you twist history so flagrantly?
    FDR's "New Deal" didn't pull us out of a decade of depression, WWII did.

    And the 80s recession was already in full swing when Reagan first got into office in 81. He pulled us out.

    Wow... please fact check before you post.
    I don't know Micael, these people must have either failed history or weren't alive back then. I was there, I remember!

    Does anyone remember something called the "Misery Index"?
    The Unemployment Rate + The Inflation Rate
    Here is a link broken down by President (Obama is on there but it will have to be adjusted up, because both unemployment and inflation have gone up from when it was measured)

    The United States Misery Index By President

    BTW Reagan's index went down almost 10 points!
  8. #1128  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It won't take that long. I said that about ten years ago. Now that more and more middle class voting taxpayers are losing their insurance, or watching their premiums climb, with no change in health care costs, the major issue is whether we go ahead and start a reasonable health care system now, or we wait until we have a further economic catastrophe. And the aging population has something to do with it, but not all. Even with maintaining Medicare for just the elderly, it's the working class that will suffer as health care becomes even more unavailable. Those people will make the decision....and it doesn't include health savings accounts (which are bogus....how'd you like to rely on the stock market for your health care over the past two years?) or babying private insurance companies. Our current course is unsustainable. That's a fact, not a guess. Even republicans will admit that. So the issue is what to do, and there is no way for-profit will survive given the current circumstances. It will happen. Smart people will realize that now is the time to make it happen, and not when we're in a catastrophic situation.
    Man, I was twelve years, 10 years ago!

    Indeed, we are experiencing times of crisys and there is no better time to do "revolutions" than these ones. We have to finally conclude, after all these years of exploitation of workers, that there are 3 things that are essencial to people well being and they can't be a business: Education, Justice an Healthcare
  9. #1129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    I don't know Micael, these people must have either failed history or weren't alive back then. I was there, I remember!

    Does anyone remember something called the "Misery Index"?
    The Unemployment Rate + The Inflation Rate
    Here is a link broken down by President (Obama is on there but it will have to be adjusted up, because both unemployment and inflation have gone up from when it was measured)

    The United States Misery Index By President

    BTW Reagan's index went down almost 10 points!
    Estimulate economy by creating wars is not my ideal of society... I'm sure it isn't for others to.
  10. #1130  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Man, I was twelve years, 10 years ago!

    Indeed, we are experiencing times of crisys and there is no better time to do "revolutions" than these ones. We have to finally conclude, after all these years of exploitation of workers, that there are 3 things that are essencial to people well being and they can't be a business: Education, Justice an Healthcare
    Let's just say that if the duck thinks he had an advantage because he was around for Reagan's presidency, I was around for Eisenhower's. And believe me, it's not age that makes a difference....it's knowledge. I don't know much about automaking....so I don't bother to pretend I do.
  11. #1131  
    From the Director of CBO, Douglas Elmendorf:

    "I concluded the talk by emphasizing that fiscal policy is on an unsustainable path to an extent that cannot be solved by minor tinkering. The country faces a fundamental disconnect between the services the people expect the government to provide, particularly in the form of benefits for older Americans, and the tax revenues that people are willing to send to the government to finance those services. That fundamental disconnect will have to be addressed in some way if the budget is to be placed on a sustainable course." Director’s Blog

    As we continue to talk about all the things that citizens "need" and "want", it's important to understand that this country is in terrible trouble if we continue to spend money. Whether it's on new benefits or the existing welfare benefits, we simply cannot sustain this spending. We are in such an amazing amount of debt, that we simply can't tax our way out of this. People have to wake up. The debt is at $12 trillion folks, that's $12,000,000,000,000 (I rounded down) and increasing at $3.88 billion per DAY.

    Worried about health care? That is going to be the least of our troubles at this pace unless the Government makes tough decisions and we have very few people in Washington that have the balls to do it. Hold onto your hat, things are going to get interesting in this country.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  12. #1132  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    As we continue to talk about all the things that citizens "need" and "want", it's important to understand that this country is in terrible trouble if we continue to spend money. Whether it's on new benefits or the existing welfare benefits, we simply cannot sustain this spending. We are in such an amazing amount of debt, that we simply can't tax our way out of this. People have to wake up. The debt is at $12 trillion folks, that's $12,000,000,000,000 (I rounded down) and increasing at $3.88 billion per DAY.

    Worried about health care? That is going to be the least of our troubles at this pace unless the Government makes tough decisions and we have very few people in Washington that have the balls to do it. Hold onto your hat, things are going to get interesting in this country.
    So people who are dying and refused care because they are uninsured don't really "need" it, they just "want" it? Nice of you to point that out to them. Oh, I forgot. There aren't any of them on this forum, because we all have health insurance. And the fact that health care is 17% of the GDP doesn't suggest to you that health care is not something we should address in a substantive way? Or is that off limits for you? Yeah, it's going to be interesting. You agree with me that things as they are are unsustainable. Health care is the largest single category of expenditures in the GDP, and you want to ignore it? Good thinking.
  13. #1133  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    From the Director of CBO, Douglas Elmendorf:

    "I concluded the talk by emphasizing that fiscal policy is on an unsustainable path to an extent that cannot be solved by minor tinkering. The country faces a fundamental disconnect between the services the people expect the government to provide, particularly in the form of benefits for older Americans, and the tax revenues that people are willing to send to the government to finance those services. That fundamental disconnect will have to be addressed in some way if the budget is to be placed on a sustainable course." Director’s Blog
    Oh...and I agree with this quote as well. What needs to be corrected is "the tax revenues that people are willing to send to the government".
  14.    #1134  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Estimulate economy by creating wars is not my ideal of society... I'm sure it isn't for others to.
    I agree, and there is no reason for us to be in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. I thought Obama would have pulled us out by now. Unless he doesn't want to stop that spending?

    I know it was before you were born, but Reagan did not start any wars. He stimulated the economy by lowering taxes. He is the one who told Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall" setting in motion the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. He did spend a lot on the military causing the Russians to spend equally causing the breakup of their control of USSR.

    He was a much loved President (except most hated by socialist). Hopefully someone is out there who can bring back his ideas and right our economy once more. Check out those misery ratings by President.
  15. #1135  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Oh...and I agree with this quote as well. What needs to be corrected is "the tax revenues that people are willing to send to the government".
    I always wonder if the people who yell for others to pay more in taxes are volunteering to pay more now. You do realize you can send more in to the government, right? That's right....this year....when you file your tax return how about send in another 3%....or maybe be a real Patriot and pay an additional 5%. Don't you think you will feel much better?

    I was watching a show the other day about Warren Buffett. Good guy....smart guy....obviously a very good investor....and he believes the estate tax should be higher because he believes in government sponsored welfare programs. Funny thing though....they mentioned that he will pay next to nothing in estate tax because he will be donating almost all his wealth to charities. Now....I'm not opposed to that all....high 5 to him. But for someone who believes that many should pay more to the government, he conveniently has wiggled his way out of it. I saw a show once where, after avoiding the subject on a couple of occassions, he was pressed on the issue and he finally said he thought he could choose better than the government on how to spend his money!!!! Wow. Take everyone's money except his own. As I said earlier....smart guy.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

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  16. #1136  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So people who are dying and refused care because they are uninsured don't really "need" it, they just "want" it? Nice of you to point that out to them. Oh, I forgot. There aren't any of them on this forum, because we all have health insurance. And the fact that health care is 17% of the GDP doesn't suggest to you that health care is not something we should address in a substantive way? Or is that off limits for you? Yeah, it's going to be interesting. You agree with me that things as they are are unsustainable. Health care is the largest single category of expenditures in the GDP, and you want to ignore it? Good thinking.
    When our monetary system goes down the drain, and inflation is through the roof, something tells me people will regret this debt. And I don't blame just the democrats, it's the Republican's fault as well. Plenty of blame to go around.

    I've told you how I feel they can address the health care issue and either you just are getting too old to remember, or just like to pretend I don't have any ideas. In fact, not too long ago you said you actually agreed with me on some of those ideas.

    1) Insurance companies must accept any condition, no pre-ex

    2) EVERYONE must enroll with a SUBSTANTIAL penalty if they don't (I hate this one, but is the only way #1 will work)

    3) Set up a subsidy plan through each state that helps offset premiums. Someone with a health condition making $200k doesn't need help with premiums, they need the ability to get the coverage (see #1). However, someone who is healthy making $10k needs assistance with the premium. This subsidy can be funded through various means such as at the gas pump or through state sales tax. But everyone pitches in....not just one group.

    4) Work on medicare fraud. Too much waste, needs to be addressed, but not sure it can be. Reduced waste can reduce overall medical spending thus bringing down health premiums.

    5) Tort reform. This will not only help reduce premiums that physicians pay but might also stop them from having to send people for tests that aren't necessary (for fear of being sued).

    Obviously these are simplified, but I believe they can be implemented and can make a difference. It ain't rocket science....just need to get the politics out of the picture, but not sure that is possible.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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    #1137  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Huh? There were a ton of reasons why the USSR failed. It's economic model (which was Leninism more than it was socialism) is merely one part. A bigger reason is that tried to keep together a country made up of completely different countries, cultures, and languages. It over-extended itself with military spending, while neglecting infrastructure and healthcare (hmmm...familiar?) and there was that war in Afghanistan...

    China, however, seems to be thriving just fine. How do you explain that in your anti-socialist view of the world?

    With the recent massive recession, I guess it would be just as accurate to say Capitalism doesn't work.

    Your "Good vs Bad" view of the world is quaint but rather juvenile.
    Nice snarky jab, but totally misplaced and uncalled for. I'll not debate you further. It's pointless.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #1138  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Or we could look at the other industrialized nations and there "Social" healthcare systems which function better than ours.
    I don't agree (surprised?).

    And I'm not real impressed with how your president is building the next version in the senate with 4 or 5 people behind closed doors. They'll do the same thing as before. Overload it with crap so it's 2000 pages of legal mumbo jumbo, and spring it 36 hours before it needs to go to vote.

    What happened to Obama's promise of "transparency"? He broke that promise. Gee, why do I ask when he's failed to meet or has broken almost every promise he's made so far.

    And has anyone seen Biden in like forever? What a circus this administration is. We're in big trouble, I'm afraid.

    Even though I don't agree with you on many subjects, daThomas, I've come to respect you. You're obviously a smart guy. I pray that you at some point take a real look at this administration and tally up. I believe that if you honestly looked at some of this stuff, clearly and unbiased, you'd begin to agree that things aren't stacking up as He promised.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #1139  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    When our monetary system goes down the drain, and inflation is through the roof, something tells me people will regret this debt. And I don't blame just the democrats, it's the Republican's fault as well. Plenty of blame to go around.

    I've told you how I feel they can address the health care issue and either you just are getting too old to remember, or just like to pretend I don't have any ideas. In fact, not too long ago you said you actually agreed with me on some of those ideas.

    1) Insurance companies must accept any condition, no pre-ex

    2) EVERYONE must enroll with a SUBSTANTIAL penalty if they don't (I hate this one, but is the only way #1 will work)

    3) Set up a subsidy plan through each state that helps offset premiums. Someone with a health condition making $200k doesn't need help with premiums, they need the ability to get the coverage (see #1). However, someone who is healthy making $10k needs assistance with the premium. This subsidy can be funded through various means such as at the gas pump or through state sales tax. But everyone pitches in....not just one group.

    4) Work on medicare fraud. Too much waste, needs to be addressed, but not sure it can be. Reduced waste can reduce overall medical spending thus bringing down health premiums.

    5) Tort reform. This will not only help reduce premiums that physicians pay but might also stop them from having to send people for tests that aren't necessary (for fear of being sued).

    Obviously these are simplified, but I believe they can be implemented and can make a difference. It ain't rocket science....just need to get the politics out of the picture, but not sure that is possible.
    Yes, we've discussed this many times, and I agree with almost all of those efforts, but private insurance cannot cut it and will go bankrupt with any true competition. Tort reform has totally failed in Texas, but if you want it, fine. But you seem to think that reforming health care is just a program in and of itself and independent of the economy, and I'm saying that's not the case, that reforming health care has to be the central aspect of any effort to control the economy....to say nothing of the fact that it should be done regardless. It is not a "want". It is a "need".
  20. #1140  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, we've discussed this many times, and I agree with almost all of those efforts, but private insurance cannot cut it and will go bankrupt with any true competition. Tort reform has totally failed in Texas, but if you want it, fine. But you seem to think that reforming health care is just a program in and of itself and independent of the economy, and I'm saying that's not the case, that reforming health care has to be the central aspect of any effort to control the economy....to say nothing of the fact that it should be done regardless. It is not a "want". It is a "need".
    The "want" vs "need" comes into play when people want ridiculous benefits without having to pay for it. You should hear what people tell me they "want" for their health coverage but apparently don't "'want" to pay for it. It's amazing that when you ask people if the "want" some type of government health care plan the response is usually quite high....however...if the question is then about paying for it, well, that is where it suddenly isn't as important. People "want" free health care...ummm....but pay for it? No thank you.

    I continually hear people say that people should not be forced to go through bankruptcy because they got sick....and I agree! However, you don't need a $250 ded, 80/20 plan with a $15 physician co-pay plan and a 8/25/50 prescription card in order to avoid bankruptcy (this comes with a high price tag). What you need is a plan that limits your exposure to $5000 or $6000 if the goal is to stop folks from going into bankruptcy. These plans can have higher deductibles and not as rich physician and prescription co-pays that will reduce their premium but limit their catastrophic loss.
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