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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #1081  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post

    WASHINGTON When it comes to paying for a health care overhaul, Americans see just one way to go: Tax the rich.


    Oh great. Let's tax the job creators even more. That'll get us all back to work faster. Smart thinking!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #1082  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Actually you're using a fallacy of non sequitur. And you are putting a personal meaning on the reform based on conspiracy or something.

    Perhaps we should use Occam's Razor.
    Explain how that was non sequitor. It's not, so this should be interesting.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #1083  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Explain how that was non sequitor. It's not, so this should be interesting.
    The government is actually trying to do a big reform.
    So, they must be pursuiting power and profit!
  4. #1084  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Oh great. Let's tax the job creators even more. That'll get us all back to work faster. Smart thinking!
    What percentage of small business owners make over $250,000 per year? Not sales, what they have to claim as revenue.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #1085  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    What percentage of small business owners make over $250,000 per year? Not sales, what they have to claim as revenue.
    Talk about non sequitor.... this has nothing to do with reducing costs. This has to do with transfer of wealth (aka socialism).
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #1086  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Oh great. Let's tax the job creators even more. That'll get us all back to work faster. Smart thinking!
    "Who have profits can't fire workers."

    This would be an excellent mesure

    This has to do with transfer of wealth
    No, its about to reduce the pit between poor and rich: to have more middle class.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #1087  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    "Who have profits can't fire workers."

    This would be an excellent mesure



    No, its about to reduce the pit between poor and rich: to have more middle class.
    Yes, we know you're for socialism, but how is it that you can say "No", and just say the same thing differently, e.g., "transfer of wealth" vs. "reduce pit between poor and rich: to have more middle class".

    It's the same thing. I'm starting to think that you just want to argue :P
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #1088  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yes, we know you're for socialism, but how is it that you can say "No", and just say the same thing differently, e.g., "transfer of wealth" vs. "reduce pit between poor and rich: to have more middle class".

    It's the same thing. I'm starting to think that you just want to argue :P
    Arguing is good for intelectual development I think... And i'm learning a lot of english with all of you!

    I've disagreed because its not a transfer of wealth... The rich will still be rich, just less rich! LOL! Imagine bill gates with less a million, he would still be rich. Its about the construction of equality, and not to just take all of the riche's money.
  9. #1089  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Talk about non sequitor.... this has nothing to do with reducing costs. This has to do with transfer of wealth (aka socialism).
    You claim this will hamper those that provide jobs, I'm asking what percentage?

    Is it truly significant or just a knee jerk response to the word tax?
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #1090  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You claim this will hamper those that provide jobs, I'm asking what percentage?

    Is it truly significant or just a knee jerk response to the word tax?
    Honestly, I'm guilty of the later, but it's an honest response as well. It's called common sense. Reagan understood it back in the 80s when he came to power after Carter's disasters. The first thing he did was make huge cuts in the taxes on our job creators, and thats what shifted us out of a terrible recession.

    But Reagan aside, it's just simple math. If those that create jobs are increasingly taxed and have less money to hire; they hire fewer, maybe are forced to fire, and for the small businessman, forced out all together.

    By the same token, with less taxes, those that consume will consume more, which increases demand, and so on and so on...

    But again, this is all an aside and has nothing to do with reducing costs in Healthcare... it just about figuring ways to pay for the Government's destruction of it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #1091  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Arguing is good for intelectual development I think... And i'm learning a lot of english with all of you!

    I've disagreed because its not a transfer of wealth... The rich will still be rich, just less rich! LOL! Imagine bill gates with less a million, he would still be rich. Its about the construction of equality, and not to just take all of the riche's money.
    The only problem with your premise is that it has never worked that way, nor will it ever. It's a nice dream though.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12.    #1092  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    I've disagreed because its not a transfer of wealth... The rich will still be rich, just less rich! LOL! Imagine bill gates with less a million, he would still be rich. Its about the construction of equality, and not to just take all of the riche's money.
    This is still transfer of wealth. When you take something from one person against his will and give it to another, besides being stealing (legally if it is the government doing it), it is transferring (moving) wealth (money).

    We have a system that rewards achievement. If you invent something, or sell a product that a lot of people want, you are rewarded with money. With that money you can buy luxury items; Yachts, cars, etc. This keeps businesses going providing these items. This keeps people employed, whether it is the mechanic, union laborer, janitor, etc. These people earn money for their jobs they can buy stuff and the cycle continues.

    Take money from the people, they buy less. We now don't need to make as many cars. People in Detroit lose their jobs making cars. People become unemployed and uninsured. We come up with social programs to help these people. We need more taxes. We take it from those that have money. They have to buy less. and the cycle continues.
  13. #1093  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Honestly, I'm guilty of the later, but it's an honest response as well. It's called common sense. Reagan understood it back in the 80s when he came to power after Carter's disasters. The first thing he did was make huge cuts in the taxes on our job creators, and thats what shifted us out of a terrible recession.

    But Reagan aside, it's just simple math. If those that create jobs are increasingly taxed and have less money to hire; they hire fewer, maybe are forced to fire, and for the small businessman, forced out all together.

    By the same token, with less taxes, those that consume will consume more, which increases demand, and so on and so on...

    But again, this is all an aside and has nothing to do with reducing costs in Healthcare... it just about figuring ways to pay for the Government's destruction of it.
    Forgive me, but did we not just spend the last 12 years lowering taxes and deregulating business only to dig ourselves into the hole we're in?

    I don't believe the current admin is a Socialist agenda, I see a balanced, hit on all cylinders approach to stabilize the economy (done btw), create manufacturing jobs in the US, wrestle down the RUNAWAY costs of healthcare (which is really killing employers), ramp up the quality of education in the US to provide the educated work force we need for those energy jobs of the future.

    So yes, it's a hands on approach to guide the Country towards a better future as opposed to remove all regulation and taxes and the whole thing will drive itself.

    (BTW, the amount of money the Reagan admin spent on the cold war is corporate welfare)
  14.    #1094  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Imagine bill gates with less a million, he would still be rich.
    Have you ever heard of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

    The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

    He donates more money to help others than many countries total GDP A lot more than that million you talked about!! Many wealthy people in this country donate a LOT of money to help those less fortunate.

    It is SO much better when people help others because they want to vs. being forced to.
  15. #1095  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Have you ever heard of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

    The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

    He donates more money to help others than many countries total GDP A lot more than that million you talked about!! Many wealthy people in this country donate a LOT of money to help those less fortunate.

    It is SO much better when people help others because they want to vs. being forced to.
    Yes, the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation is a wonderful thing. Have a friend that works there. Incredible how much money it takes to figure out how to donate that much money.

    And since you mentioned Gates I will point out that both Bill Gates and Warren Buffet both think they should be taxed at a higher level.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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    #1096  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Forgive me, but did we not just spend the last 12 years lowering taxes and deregulating business only to dig ourselves into the hole we're in?
    No, I don't believe that lowering taxes caused the hole we're in. Unsound investment practices, greedy people, energy dependancy on outsiders... things like that did. And I don't know that Bush deregulated all that much during his term.

    My point was about taxes. You can drag whatever you want to into the mix, but the bottom line is that lowering taxes on the job creators INCREASES employment and productivity. It's not a guess or a belief. It's fact. Check your history, and get off your ideological horse please.
    I don't believe the current admin is a Socialist agenda, I see a balanced, hit on all cylinders approach to stabilize the economy (done btw), create manufacturing jobs in the US, wrestle down the RUNAWAY costs of healthcare (which is really killing employers), ramp up the quality of education in the US to provide the educated work force we need for those energy jobs of the future.
    Excuse me but please let me know which country we're talking about, because the last time I looked unemployment is double digits and is still on the rise. This is exactly the wrong time to add to the deficit with this monstrous bill that the house just passed, and talking about tying the hands on the only people that can actually create jobs. The government doesn't create jobs, btw, they find more positions for the rest of us to pay for.
    So yes, it's a hands on approach to guide the Country towards a better future as opposed to remove all regulation and taxes and the whole thing will drive itself.
    You give this man far too much credit.... and for what? What exactly has he done, daThomas? Spare us the soaring rhetoric and catch words/phrases like "hands on approach to guide the Country" and "hit on all cylinders approach to stabilize the economy", and tell us what he's actually done. SNL nailed it a few weeks back. He's done nada (besides kiss some major ***** overseas - I think that's failing too, btw).
    (BTW, the amount of money the Reagan admin spent on the cold war is corporate welfare)
    The money we spent on the cold war forced the Soviet Union to collapse financially trying to keep up. Talk to a few east Berliners recently?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #1097  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    It is SO much better when people help others because they want to vs. being forced to.
    It's not about helping others. It's about destroying the rich, lifting the poor... we'll all be one big happy middle class.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #1098  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    By the same token, with less taxes, those that consume will consume more, which increases demand, and so on and so on...

    But again, this is all an aside and has nothing to do with reducing costs in Healthcare... it just about figuring ways to pay for the Government's destruction of it.
    A smaller dream than this one you have. Again, Keynes have proved this wrong, so does many XXI century economists, so does the actual state of US economy!

    This is the way that have been already proved wrong, not the one i'm defending, attending it was never putted in practice.


    And again, you've used a fallacy (ad ignoratio).
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #1099  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    A smaller dream than this one you have. Again, Keynes have proved this wrong, so does many XXI century economists, so does the actual state of US economy!

    This is the way that have been already proved wrong, not the one i'm defending, attending it was never putted in practice.
    I'm sorry. I don't know how to respond as I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Please rephrase. If you're saying that increasing taxes on the rich creates jobs, I'd say you're wrong. Historically.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #1100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Have you ever heard of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?

    The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

    He donates more money to help others than many countries total GDP A lot more than that million you talked about!! Many wealthy people in this country donate a LOT of money to help those less fortunate.

    It is SO much better when people help others because they want to vs. being forced to.
    But you cant depend on peoples good will. You have to construct bases for a better society, first with mandatory rules.
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/17/2009 at 03:18 PM.

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