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  1. #1041  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow... amazing... I was wondering just how left a person could get. I think you've just set the bar a bit further than I'd expected.
    Micael, just look at european countries... The governments that we call right wing are closer, in ideology, to Obama!
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/16/2009 at 11:10 AM.
  2.    #1042  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Do you REALLY know what socialism is?

    There's no such thing as socialism in america, neither republicans or democrats are socialists. Its an absurd call socialist to obama.

    Besides, it would be a compliment if you call him that
    Please explain what socialism is, and how it differs from some of the goals President Obama has for this country.
  3. #1043  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Please explain what socialism is, and how it differs from some of the goals President Obama has for this country.
    It's a bit hard to me to explain it 'cause my english is not perfect...

    There are two major views on socialism:
    Utopic: Proudhon, Bakunine, Louis Auguste Blanqui...
    Scientific: Marx, Engles, Trotsky, Kropotkin...

    Than you have the social democracy (Bernstein et all) that is a more moderate socialism. It's what we have on most of the european countries like Sweden, Portugal, Spain, etc. Its capitalism on service of society.

    Its not even possible, by definition, to have socialism in US.

    I'll try to explain in a very few words:

    Social democracy doesnt stand for neoliberalism, doesnt tolerate lobbies, etc. US political model is all about neoliberalism and lobbies.

    Social democracy is a system where you have to pay taxes acording to what you HAVE and what you EARN. Imagine that I have a salary of 1500€/month (~700USD) than I will pay anually 20% of that in IRS (in sweden you have to pay almost 50%!), plus 20% of taxes on every good I buy. If I have a salary of 4000€/month I'll have to pay ~30% of that in IRS plus the goods taxes.

    So, everyone pays accourding to their income.

    Its not that simple but is somewhat like this.


    All of the taxes money is for the government to apply in country needs: Public Health, Justice, Education and Public administration and Public construction (all of the streets and high-ways, etc etc).

    Then, you have free health for all, free education, etc...

    If you are very rich you can always go to private schools and private hospital but theres no much use for it because public services are good, they have the best doctors.

    We dont need insurance or something like that. We pay for the State and it provides us services, so everyone can use it for free.


    The very poor that cant contribute on taxes can go to school or hospitals for free because the richer are paying more so they can have the same treatment. When you are in a emergency room no one cares if you're rich or poor: if you're sick you'll get treated.


    Sorry for my english...

    -------------


    Concluding:
    Obama is just trying to implement a system that alows public money to be invested on private companies so everyone can go to an hospital. This measure is right wing. Can you see the diference?
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/16/2009 at 12:15 PM.
  4. #1044  
    Edit: In pure socialism theres no such thing as private companies, all is public.

    In moderate socialism you have both, public and private (and also some cooperative), but the state controls the major businesses like water, energy (...), because this goods are too important to get in the hands of private companies. In this way we can provide cheaper water/energy because the state doesn't pursuit astronomical profit.

    In US, the energy sector can make the prices higher or lower whenever they want, and can control the government with their power.
  5.    #1045  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post

    Than you have the social democracy (Bernstein et all) that is a more moderate socialism. It's what we have on most of the european countries like Sweden, Portugal, Spain, etc. Its capitalism on service of society.

    Its not even possible, by definition, to have socialism in US.

    I'll try to explain in a very few words:

    Social democracy doesnt stand for neoliberalism, doesnt tolerate lobbies, etc. US political model is all about neoliberalism and lobbies.

    Social democracy is a system where you have to pay taxes acording to what you HAVE and what you EARN. Imagine that I have a salary of 1500€/month (~700USD) than I will pay anually 20% of that in IRS (in sweden you have to pay almost 50%!), plus 20% of taxes on every good I buy. If I have a salary of 4000€/month I'll have to pay ~30% of that in IRS plus the goods taxes.

    So, everyone pays accourding to their income.
    Our income tax system does charge based on your income. The higher your income, the higher your tax. The lower income people pay No Income Tax, plus get money back (Earned Income Credits, child care credits) that they didn't even pay. So this is similar to Karl Marx's idea of from Each based on their ability, to each based on their needs.

    Its not that simple but is somewhat like this.

    All of the taxes money is for the government to apply in country needs: Public Health, Justice, Education and Public administration and Public construction (all of the streets and high-ways, etc etc).

    Then, you have free health for all, free education, etc...
    We do have free public health hospitals (in some areas-some are excellent), free public schools (some are good-others terrible), free public housing (I wouldn't want my dog to live in those conditions), streets, justice and the other things you have. They are all paid by our tax dollars.

    If you are very rich you can always go to private schools and private hospital but theres no much use for it because public services are good, they have the best doctors.

    We dont need insurance or something like that. We pay for the State and it provides us services, so everyone can use it for free.
    The problem comes in with so much corruption, that when the government provides services, it cost a lot more than when the private sector does. Compare the difference in cost per student with public vs private schools, check out what we pay per unit on public housing (it would have been cheaper to just buy them a house)

    Concluding:
    Obama is just trying to implement a system that alows public money to be invested on private companies so everyone can go to an hospital.
    Actually, the long term goal is to get the private companies to be owned by the government. We actually do have some Socialism (Marxism) in this country. Some are just trying to fight it's expansion.


    BTW, your English is better than mine sometimes
  6.    #1046  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Edit: In pure socialism theres no such thing as private companies, all is public.

    In moderate socialism you have both, public and private (and also some cooperative), but the state controls the major businesses like water, energy (...), because this goods are too important to get in the hands of private companies. In this way we can provide cheaper water/energy because the state doesn't pursuit astronomical profit.

    In US, the energy sector can make the prices higher or lower whenever they want, and can control the government with their power.
    So, based on your quote, the United States already has moderate socialism.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #1047  
    Socialism is socialism... you guys are only talking around how much socialism a country has adopted. There is no such thing as "moderate socialism".
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #1048  
    glorifiedg is 100% spot on!

    Just look through the threads here glorifiedg. I am considered a left wing radical socialist just because I am a member of a labor union. People in the states don't have a true understanding of left and right.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  9. #1049  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    So, based on your quote, the United States already has moderate socialism.
    I dont think so because of the lack of control on the major sectors like energy.


    I'm talking for what i read (and what i see in the movies LOL!), you have public hospitals in all cities?

    Our income tax system does charge based on your income. The higher your income, the higher your tax. The lower income people pay No Income Tax, plus get money back (Earned Income Credits, child care credits) that they didn't even pay. So this is similar to Karl Marx's idea of from Each based on their ability, to each based on their needs.
    But you pay lower taxes than us because the public system is smaller right?

    Actually, the long term goal is to get the private companies to be owned by the government.
    I don't believe that this is the long term goal... That is an over reaction of the right wing in america.

    There is an OBAMANIA (LOL) in the world today and I think its all bluff...

    The problem comes in with so much corruption, that when the government provides services, it cost a lot more than when the private sector does. Compare the difference in cost per student with public vs private schools, check out what we pay per unit on public housing (it would have been cheaper to just buy them a house)
    That problem isn't related to socialism or neoliberalism, is related to justice. In Europe we are starting to take the first steps against the biggest enemy ocidental countries ever known: (white collar) corruption.

    I know this is a falacy but do you think that on the neoliberal system there's less corruptions? Just look at US scandals about the CEO's and the Golden Parachutes...


    We actually do have some Socialism (Marxism) in this country. Some are just trying to fight it's expansion.
    Stigma of the cold war... Thats stupid because if we can get the good things from each ideology, perhaps we can make a more fair world.

    Sectarism is always bad.

    @Micael
    Socialism is socialism... you guys are only talking around how much socialism a country has adopted. There is no such thing as "moderate socialism".
    Micael, the only thing that doesn't exist is "Socialism" but "Socialisms" there are dozens of views on it, most of them completly contraditory.

    If you knew some history of socialism, the one they dont told you in school because of the stigma that i've mentioned, you'll know, for example, the big "fight" between Pierre Joseph Proudhom and Marx in the First International. Their both socialists but their ideology is totally contraditory.

    No offence, but perhaps you should read some of the authors i've mentioned.
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/17/2009 at 03:36 AM.
  10.    #1050  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    I dont think so because of the lack of control on the major sectors like energy.
    In our State, electricity prices are controlled by the government.


    I'm talking for what i read (and what i see in the movies LOL!), you have public hospitals in all cities?
    Again, in Louisiana, we have public hospitals in all sections of the State

    But you pay lower taxes than us because the public system is smaller right?
    Yes


    I don't believe that this is the long term goal... That is an over reaction of the right wing in america.
    The true long term goal of both parties....Power

    If you knew some history of socialism, the one they dont told you in school because of the stigma that i've mentioned, you'll know, for example, the big "fight" between Pierre Joseph Proudhom and Marx in the First International. Their both socialists but their ideology is totally contraditory.

    No offence, but perhaps you should read some of the authors i've mentioned.
    I went to public schools mostly, and we learned very little about socialism. I have never heard of Proudhom. I've read up on it a lot in my "older" age. Very interesting. But, one thing good about this country. You CAN speak out against the government without it landing you in jail. We may all disagree with each other, but at least we can! (at least for now )
  11.    #1051  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The distinction is that the Republican Party has aligned itself with these Teabaggers.
    How about showing some class. If you want to disagree, do so.
  12. #1052  
    In our State, electricity prices are controlled by the government.

    Again, in Louisiana, we have public hospitals in all sections of the State
    Its hard to compare because most of your states are bigger than most of EU countries! Portugal has 10.000.000 inhabitants, probably less then the US smaller state. LOL!

    I'm talking about a control from a central government. Like i've said, American system of government its very very different from our, sometimes, much more complex. And, from my experience in Portugal, complexiness (does this word exist? LOL) is great for corruption.


    The true long term goal of both parties....Power
    Indeed my friend, no matter we are in Europe, Asia or America.


    I went to public schools mostly, and we learned very little about socialism. I have never heard of Proudhom. I've read up on it a lot in my "older" age. Very interesting. But, one thing good about this country. You CAN speak out against the government without it landing you in jail. We may all disagree with each other, but at least we can! (at least for now )
    That part was for Micael.

    LOL! Yes but you can speak too in Europe. Perhaps you can speek with more freedom in Europe.
    About this, I think USA is chosing a way of obscurantism (that is penetrating in europe already) on culture. Everyday I see videos in youtube about the hate motivated by religion in US. If we are assisting a growing radicalism from
    muslims we can see that christians are getting also radical. I see fox news some times and its a scandal how can radicalism on religion influence media and all people life.

    A moderate position would be better. Only then we have free speach. It wasn't possible in US to print the "Mohamed Cartoon"... So, I think we have (for now) a little bit more freedom of speach.


    On Proudhon:
    I think everyone should read this thing. He is a 19th century philosopher know by is utopic socialism. It's interesting for example, his view on private property. Utopy is probably impossible but shows us the way that humanity have to follow.

    Concluding, we have to make an effort to reduce sectarism and look to proposals for what they are and dont give a sh** if they are defended by left, center or right wing.


    Hope I was clear, sometimes is very hard when you're writing another language. :S It's easier to speek it
  13. rfceo's Avatar
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    #1053  
    The group I work with has been fighting for health care reform over the past 8 years. We were working on Association health plans, what we proposed was legislation that would allow associations to allow the group plan for an association cross state boundaries for the group policy. Currently the only groups allowed to do this are Large Corporations and Unions.
    There was a bill written for this that laid out several items .
    1. No company in an association could be denied coverage as long as they met the standards relating to being an association member.
    2. No one within a company could be denied coverage.
    a. They could have a higher premium.
    3. The group premium cost would be the same from member company to member company. Would not vary for different companies within an association.
    4. Single and family coverage policy prices would be the same from company to company.
    a. Premium for preexisting conditions could not be more than 25% higher than the standard premium.

    The plan allowed for different levels of coverage in the groups from basic to full coverage plans each having their own pricing.
    In the polls that we did we found that people were paying as much as $500 a month more than someone with the same identical policy. We found others that they would not insure and others that did not have coverage because the premium was just way beyond what they could afford.

    This bounced back and forth each year for the last 8 years on the hill. The house would pass it and the Senate would not, or visa versa.

    You do realize that your health insurance premium could be substantially lower if the insurance companies were not spending BILLIONS on lobbying to allow them to continue their current mode of operation.

    You probably have seen the government death panel ads on TV. They are so full of it, this past weekend my grand daughter 2.5 months old was at the ER and admitted to the hospital over night, possibly swine flu. In the morning my daughter was told they would probably keep her longer. About an hour later she was told that the insurance company would not cover additional stay, even though blood work and cultures had not come back from the lab.

    We the people need to take back the government from big business.
    Do away with lobbyists and PACs, we should not have legalized bribery.
    If you were to pay someone in the legal system to vote in your behalf you would go to jail.
    Once someone is voted into office they are to vote for all of their folks back home regardless of party. This juvenile bickering on the hill because of party affiliation needs to end. We would be much better off if bills were looked at solely upon their content. Speaking of content it should be short sweet and to the point, no additional crap attached to it. Many times it is this crap that kills a bill.

    We need the insurance industry to insure not cherry pick. Lord help you if you get really sick, you will probably be canceled. Or you loose your job and then see that the premium without a group is beyond what you can afford.
  14. #1054  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    This is close to anarchy.
    Again, a matter of concepts. To do what you want is not anarchy, its anomy.

    Anarchy is a perfect system, an utopic vision of the world and the word is often mis-used
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/17/2009 at 03:38 AM.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #1055  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    glorifiedg is 100% spot on!

    Just look through the threads here glorifiedg. I am considered a left wing radical socialist just because I am a member of a labor union. People in the states don't have a true understanding of left and right.
    I would hereby and officially like to recognize palandri, and have it entered into the record that he is neither a wing, nor is he a radical (as far as these threads are concerned). He is, however, a good guy who'd be fun to have a beer with.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #1056  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    glorifiedg is 100% spot on!

    Just look through the threads here glorifiedg. I am considered a left wing radical socialist just because I am a member of a labor union. People in the states don't have a true understanding of left and right.
    Yes, and I think that's because there's no such thing as left in US. Just center (perhaps some center-left?)
  17. #1057  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I would hereby and officially like to recognize palandri, and have it entered into the record that he is neither a wing, nor is he a radical (as far as these threads are concerned). He is, however, a good guy who'd be fun to have a beer with.
    Micael, who doesn't like to have a good cold beer?
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #1058  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    No offence, but perhaps you should read some of the authors i've mentioned.
    None taken, and having 20 different definitions on socialism does none of us any good, does it? Otherwise, 1) I'd have to identify which variant I was talking about when I mentioned it, and 2) everyone would have to be schooled on all variants and their distinctions.

    Therefore I choose to go with the current "mainstream" variant that the rest of us are talking about.... you can go have as much fun as you want with the academics and other leftist elites and debate all the forms and nuances of socialism.

    PS) I get a bit tired of the left sneering down their noses at the rest of us unread and unwashed masses.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19.    #1059  
    Quote Originally Posted by rfceo View Post
    this past weekend my grand daughter 2.5 months old was at the ER and admitted to the hospital over night, possibly swine flu. In the morning my daughter was told they would probably keep her longer. About an hour later she was told that the insurance company would not cover additional stay, even though blood work and cultures had not come back from the lab.
    If the doctor felt a longer stay was needed, he can tell the insurance company so, and they will listen. Insurance companies have standard procedures as to how long a stay can be, but if the doctor objects they will pay the additional time. I've got lots of experience with family members needing VERY LONG stays in the hospital. Hope your granddaughter is better soon!

    We the people need to take back the government from big business.
    Do away with lobbyists and PACs, we should not have legalized bribery.
    Agreed, the people need to take control back from big business AND the government.

    This juvenile bickering on the hill because of party affiliation needs to end. We would be much better off if bills were looked at solely upon their content. Speaking of content it should be short sweet and to the point, no additional crap attached to it. Many times it is this crap that kills a bill.
    Something we haven't heard about in a long time...Line-item Veto! I also like when the President and Congress are of opposite parties. Then what does get through both is USUALLY better.


    We need the insurance industry to insure not cherry pick. Lord help you if you get really sick, you will probably be canceled. Or you loose your job and then see that the premium without a group is beyond what you can afford.
    Once you are with an insurance company, a policy should be guaranteed renewable. The only way rates can go up, is if they go up on EVERYBODY in the country.
  20. #1060  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I would hereby and officially like to recognize palandri, and have it entered into the record that he is neither a wing, nor is he a radical (as far as these threads are concerned). He is, however, a good guy who'd be fun to have a beer with.
    Je bois une bière!
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