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  1. #1021  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Authority? What authority did I claim?
    Well, this sounded like a great level of certainty, as if it were fact...as usual, based upon no data whatsoever:

    Our current public school system (and this is nothing new) pushes all sorts of social views on children. If you disagree with that practice, then great.


    Also false. I've never questioned his expertise as a provider of medical care.
    I never claimed that you did; however, his expertise was nonetheless questioned and invalidated.
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  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1022  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, this sounded like a great level of certainty, as if it were fact...as usual, based upon no data whatsoever:
    Yes, I speak with certainty because it is a fact--which I have personally experienced. Again, you've presented no data, so stop being a hypocrite. If you don't believe me...not much I can do about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I never claimed that you did; however, his expertise was nonetheless questioned and invalidated.
    Hmmm, it seems to me that you are backtracking here. Your post said:

    You are willing to state with authority that teachers promote political ideology, based upon no data whatsoever. I actually am an expert in education....maybe I know a bit better than you.
    Of course, given the way that davidra's experience in medicine has been invalidated, I don't expect much different.


    So, you are first accusing me of speaking with authority (which I never claimed), demanding I provide Data (when you've provided none), and then state your expertise(as a means of claiming superiority in claims) . Then you state that SOMEONE has invalidated Davidra's experience (implying I was guilty of that), and stating that you don't expect much different (presumably from me--since you were addressing me).

    So, what it seems like is that you are engaging in churlish behavior and then attempting to deny it.

    KAM
  3. #1023  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That's because it is a fact--which I have personally experienced. Again, you've presented no data, so stop being a hypocrite.
    I think it was John Bryant who said that "insults are the last refuge of the out-argued"....and immature, to boot.

    I feel no need to prove a negative - you put out as a fact that teachers promote political views, and haven't backed it up. The onus is on you to prove it, not me to prove it isn't true. Or you can continue name calling. Y'know, either way.
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  4. KAM1138
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    #1024  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think it was John Bryant who said that "insults are the last refuge of the out-argued"....and immature, to boot.

    I feel no need to prove a negative - you put out as a fact that teachers promote political views, and haven't backed it up. The onus is on you to prove it, not me to prove it isn't true. Or you can continue name calling. Y'know, either way.
    Why would I wish to insult someone I've enjoyed talking to. That would be rude, and I have no desire to treat you rudely.
    No, it wasn't an insult--it was an accurate description of your behavior. Let me reiterate the nature of your hypocrisy. You demand data from me, and criticized me for not presenting data, but you didn't present any Data yourself. That's being hypocritical.

    I should also point out, that your claim that I base my view without Data is untrue, and in fact, I explained how I arrived at my views (personal experience and speaking with teachers), so it seems you asked for Data, knowing the source of my view, and that there is no presentable data. So, it seems you've decided to engage me in a meaningless distraction. I didn't realize it before, so you got me there. Congratulations.

    But now, you want to claim to be the victim, veering away from the subject.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/12/2009 at 10:20 PM.
  5. #1025  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    And people say that Americans are arrogant.

    Well, great. You keep enjoying your social democracy. Many people are eager to be given what belongs to someone else.

    I'll stay here with my Country and our backwards ways.

    And feel free to invite all those people who deserve healthcare over to Portugal. After all--every human should have what you enjoy right? You get to work on that.

    KAM
    KAM, sorry if im not expressing myself very well.

    Its not a matter of point of view. Don't you agree that a world in wich there is mutual aid its a better world than one full of egoism, full of self centered people?
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1026  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    KAM, sorry if im not expressing myself very well.

    Its not a matter of point of view. Don't you agree that a world in wich there is mutual aid its a better world than one full of egoism, full of self centered people?
    I believe your accusation about egoism is inaccurate, so I can't really answer your question. I think you are coming at this from an incorrect perspective. Helping people is (in my opinion) a virtue, but I disagree about how to accomplish that.

    KAM
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1027  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm going to make an assumption. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You know jack about the VA. Since I occasionally see patients there, let me give you a hint. The VA has the best patient information system in the nation, and is a model for the rest of the country, including private hospitals. While the care is institutional, it is generally high quality and many patients with insurance who are service-connected prefer to get their care at the VA. The problems with the VA have largely to do with the fact that it is inadequately funded. In other words, it's not the VA's fault if they do not have enough money to do their job, as you state it. It takes money, which politicians and taxpayers and libertarians like you have been unwilling to provide. If you want to know why the VA can't provide care to all the veterans, go take a look in the mirror.
    This underscores an important point. If the VA is as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), it is highly efficient, and as other have said--a model for how to do things. Yet, they still aren't able to cover the people they are tasked with covering, and as you point out--they can't because they need more money. That makes sense to me.

    Now, you've also mentioned how cars cost more because of overhead from healthcare costs, and you've openly stated that more money is needed. You are very open about this, whereas others are not.

    However, cost savings is what the Democrat plan promises, and as you've pointed out--will not deliver. It simply won't happen, and while you admit this, they do not. So, essentially you are pointing out that these so-called reform advocates are lying in order to fool the American public, promising something that they know cannot be accomplished--that is again, cost savings. If you know it, certainly these other experts they keep claiming know it as well.

    So, what you've really pointed out, and I appreciate your honesty, is that a major justification for this entire thing is just plain false. Now given that polls show that support for this is below 50% (some show it a bit higher), and assuming (safe assumption) that at least some supporters are interested in cost savings, it is likely that if our politicians were not blatantly lying to us, that support for this would be even lower.

    Don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind with this. You've stated you aren't worried about costs--that it is very secondary. However, many others have been fooled by the lies that this plan will save money, and as you've made clear, it will not. It will cost more money--likely a lot more.

    The VA is an example--even when they do everything right, they still need a lot of money. That is a relatively small-scale example. Naturally, larger scale versions (even if as efficient, which is doubtful) will be even more costly.

    Also--yesterday you mentioned something about the US having the lowest taxes. According to information I've been able to find, the nominal tax rate for most workers is about 40% (includes Federal, State and local). So, 4/10th of everything one earns is already going to the government. Do you think that can be objectively be characterized as "low."

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/13/2009 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Additional points
  8. #1028  
    Republican Rep. Bob Inglis states that:

    "hard-right" conservatives have told him that they are willing to let people who don't have health insurance "die on the steps of the hospital" to make a point about the problem of "free riders."

    "As a religious right guy, I'm thinking there was a guy named Jesus who had some things to say about these kinds of concepts," Inglis added. "And I don't want to live in a society that lets a few test cases die on the steps of the hospital. I can't go there."
    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - GOP congressman chides the ‘hard right’ « - Blogs from CNN.com)
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  9. #1029  
    And the Tea Party crowd just gets uglier and uglier...this time planning to burn legislators in effigy:

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...llo-in-effigy/
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  10. #1030  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And the Tea Party crowd just gets uglier and uglier...this time planning to burn legislators in effigy:

    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Tea Party organizer vows to burn Pelosi and Perriello in effigy « - Blogs from CNN.com
    And?....your point? Do liberals not protest? Oops....my bad....I forgot, it's okay for liberals to protest against issues, as that is patriotic....but anyone protesting against your views are just plain criminals....sorry...forgot your logic there.
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  11. #1031  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And?....your point? Do liberals not protest? Oops....my bad....I forgot, it's okay for liberals to protest against issues, as that is patriotic....but anyone protesting against your views are just plain criminals....sorry...forgot your logic there.
    Burning legislators in effigy isn't just protesting...and if you can't see that this crosses the line, I don't really have an answer for you. But if the shoe were on the other foot, you'd be crying "unAmerican" as loudly as you can - and stating that the protesters were having "Iran-like demonstrations".
    Last edited by Bujin; 11/13/2009 at 09:49 PM.
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  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #1032  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And the Tea Party crowd just gets uglier and uglier...this time planning to burn legislators in effigy:

    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Tea Party organizer vows to burn Pelosi and Perriello in effigy « - Blogs from CNN.com
    Wow! That's unheard of... almost.

  13. #1033  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Wow! That's unheard of... almost.

    And it was just as wrong then. Do you agree that it's inappropriate, or will you defend it?

    Are folks so blindly defensive of their side of the aisle that the best they can do is a continual "but the other side does it, too"? Or are certain things just, y'know, wrong?
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    #1034  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And it was just as wrong then. Do you agree that it's inappropriate, or will you defend it?
    I won't defend it. But perhaps I missed when you protested throwing shoes at a Bush effigy when it occurred. Can you link to that comment?
  15. #1035  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I won't defend it. But perhaps I missed when you protested throwing shoes at a Bush effigy when it occurred. Can you link to that comment?
    I actually don't recall ever seeing that before. However, I've stated quite clearly that both sides are wrong. You, on the other hand, seem very hesitant to do the same, instead resorting with the "other side did it too" argument, just as you did by tossing Rathergate into the conversation to distract from what Hannity did.

    So, you can say you "won't defend it", but I don't hear you stating that it's wrong. Maybe you need to think about your double standard before accusing me of one.

    Rather than wait for you to bring up another blind defense of freedom, liberty,and the right to burn liberals in effigy, I think I'll just sit this one out.
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  16. #1036  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    This underscores an important point. If the VA is as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), it is highly efficient, and as other have said--a model for how to do things. Yet, they still aren't able to cover the people they are tasked with covering, and as you point out--they can't because they need more money. That makes sense to me.

    Now, you've also mentioned how cars cost more because of overhead from healthcare costs, and you've openly stated that more money is needed. You are very open about this, whereas others are not.

    However, cost savings is what the Democrat plan promises, and as you've pointed out--will not deliver. It simply won't happen, and while you admit this, they do not. So, essentially you are pointing out that these so-called reform advocates are lying in order to fool the American public, promising something that they know cannot be accomplished--that is again, cost savings. If you know it, certainly these other experts they keep claiming know it as well.

    So, what you've really pointed out, and I appreciate your honesty, is that a major justification for this entire thing is just plain false. Now given that polls show that support for this is below 50% (some show it a bit higher), and assuming (safe assumption) that at least some supporters are interested in cost savings, it is likely that if our politicians were not blatantly lying to us, that support for this would be even lower.

    Don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind with this. You've stated you aren't worried about costs--that it is very secondary. However, many others have been fooled by the lies that this plan will save money, and as you've made clear, it will not. It will cost more money--likely a lot more.

    The VA is an example--even when they do everything right, they still need a lot of money. That is a relatively small-scale example. Naturally, larger scale versions (even if as efficient, which is doubtful) will be even more costly.

    Also--yesterday you mentioned something about the US having the lowest taxes. According to information I've been able to find, the nominal tax rate for most workers is about 40% (includes Federal, State and local). So, 4/10th of everything one earns is already going to the government. Do you think that can be objectively be characterized as "low."

    KAM
    I am not an economist, although i do have some training in health policy. Nobody can accurately predict what this will cost and what the savings might be. The CBO seems to think that over time it will save money. All these estimates are based on assumptions that will change, not always in a predictable direction (it may be less expensive, believe it or not). My position is that it doesn't matter. it may save money, it may end up costing more than predicted, and we'll have to pay more taxes. People's health is more important than a raise in tax categories. Listing the highest tax bracket does not mean we pay that much in taxes. There are plenty of online lists of overall taxes in all countries and we are by far the lowest.
    I also believe we can make things much more efficient by using evidence based medicine, working vigorously on fraud, decreasing overhead in insurers and providers, and yes, lowering reimbursements, or at least reorganizing who is paid what for their services, such as higher pay for those who coordinate care effectively.

    By the way....all those cost control efforts will have to managed by the....government, since private companies have failed to do them. Avoiding a public plan would by no means remove the goverrnment from oversight; otherwise we can be confident there will be no cost savings.
    Last edited by davidra; 11/14/2009 at 07:39 AM.
  17. #1037  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I am not an economist, although i do have some training in health policy. Nobody can accurately predict what this will cost and what the savings might be. The CBO seems to think that over time it will save money. All these estimates are based on assumptions that will change, not always in a predictable direction (it may be less expensive, believe it or not). My position is that it doesn't matter. it may save money, it may end up costing more than predicted, and we'll have to pay more taxes. People's health is more important than a raise in tax categories. Listing the highest tax bracket does not mean we pay that much in taxes. There are plenty of online lists of overall taxes in all countries and we are by far the lowest.
    I also believe we can make things much more efficient by using evidence based medicine, working vigorously on fraud, decreasing overhead in insurers and providers, and yes, lowering reimbursements, or at least reorganizing who is paid what for their services, such as higher pay for those who coordinate care effectively.



    By the way....all those cost control efforts will have to managed by the....government, since private companies have failed to do them. Avoiding a public plan would by no means remove the goverrnment from oversight; otherwise we can be confident there will be no cost savings.
    Translation time:

    Everyone having a lower standard of living so Dr Dave can feel good about everyone having health care is the most important thing. No one should have anything if someone else is without health care.

    If we're not paying 100% of our income in taxes then we're not paying enough.

    If you like a specific post translated into plain non-liberalized English, please ask. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.
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  18. #1038  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I won't defend it. But perhaps I missed when you protested throwing shoes at a Bush effigy when it occurred. Can you link to that comment?
    I'll defend it. Burning in effigy has historical roots to the Revolution.
  19. #1039  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Translation time:

    Everyone having a lower standard of living so Dr Dave can feel good about everyone having health care is the most important thing. No one should have anything if someone else is without health care.

    If we're not paying 100% of our income in taxes then we're not paying enough.

    If you like a specific post translated into plain non-liberalized English, please ask. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.
    Man... Im sorry but your avatar is just ridicullous. Do you REALLY know what socialism is? LOL

    Obama is right wing... Just more on the center than Bush/clinton/etc. There's no such thing as socialism in america, neither republicans or democrats are socialists. Its an absurd call socialist to obama.

    Besides, it would be a compliment if you call him that
    Last edited by glorifiedg; 11/15/2009 at 07:01 AM.
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    #1040  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Man... Im sorry but your avatar is just ridicullous. Do you REALLY know what socialism is? LOL

    Obama is right wing... Just more on the center than Bush/clinton/etc. There's no such thing as socialism in america, neither republicans or democrats are socialists. Its an absurd call socialist to obama.

    Besides, it would be a compliment if you call him that
    Wow... amazing... I was wondering just how left a person could get. I think you've just set the bar a bit further than I'd expected.
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