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  1. #1001  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You are welcome to your Social Democracy. I prefer a different system--one that is outlined in our Constitution.

    Perhaps you are not aware--we already have an extensive welfare system to provide medical care to the poor and the elderly. One of the problem with that is that we are not spending the huge amounts of money we already pay wisely. Meaning, that instead of providing care to those who need it--it is wasted.

    KAM
    What is the incompatibility between the constitution and social democracy? Yes you like the only system you know...

    Im aware that you have a crap "pseudo-public" charity health system who "serves" the poor... Cant you see that if all americans instead of paying a insurance if they pay to the state and if this one provides free health care its a win-win situation? The insurance companies pursuit the profit, state dont, so all of your money will be invested on hospitals and the service itself. the taxes will be lower than the insurance and the service would be the same plus, a public hospital dont let you die because your insurance company screw you because the disease you have its genetic or something...
  2. #1002  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Funny. I could have sworn it was a Greek word. Regardless, the plural form generally has a different connotation. Just pointing it out. Although I do like your 'italic' joke.
    Funny just because its both latin and greek...
  3. #1003  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    Funny just because its both latin and greek...
    In that vein, it's also English.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #1004  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Regardless of my own opinion, show me any bill that is being considered that puts everyone in the country on a federally sposored government plan. If you were offered one, would you take it? I may want a single payer system, but I'm not going to get it. And why? Because some people are concerned about it, and that's fine. And in spite of the fact that I think a private-based insurance system will fail because they are unable to control costs, I'm perfectly willing to see if it will work. As I have noted, the Europe you are so worried about has a number of health systems that are primarily based in private insurers. But you just seem to be caught up in the rightwing paranoia about people trying to sneak you into socialism. Not everybody is out to screw you; some actually want to help people. In short: there is no plan before congress that is anything like what you are talking about....so stop making things up.
    I've posted the speech that Obama made a year or so ago where he said that while we can't initially get to a universal health care system, his ultimate goal is to get to that. So, while you don't feel that is the ultimate goal, the President apparently has that goal. If I need to find those comments again, I will try and do so but I'm sure you will say it was doctored (no pun intended) or taken out of context, or something like that.

    I agree with you there is no universal plan in any bill, but, the House Bill, which pushes for a public option plan, will end up taking on more and more people as employers decide it costs less to pay the 8% (the figure I've seen knocked around) of payroll tax than it is to pay the group health premium. You say that is BS? Have you talked to small business owners? I have and many will move employees to the public option if it costs less. So that is how this whole process gets started.

    You and I agree (gulp) about requiring insurance companies to waive pre-ex and I think we agree on requiring participation or be fined (though it has to be a stiff fine). I don't have a problem there. You and I seem to mainly disagree on what the ultimate goal is.
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  5. #1005  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I have mentioned these many times. Medicare, medicaid and Social security--three massive government systems are all headed for insolvency with massive unfunded liabilities. In other words, they are not economically viable. We pretend that they are, but they are not. We've been robbing Peter to pay Paul (oh no--a Religious reference) and that is catching up with us. These programs projected costs turned out to be wildly inaccurate. I've heard reports that Medicare is 9 times as costly as promised. In other words, you cannot trust the numbers they are claiming for these new plans either, because they simply lie or are so incompetent that they do not take possibilities into account.

    The VA is apparently failing veterans as well.

    Further--as I stated above, a tag-team of idiocy--the Insurance industry and government have together given us this skyrocketing price problem BECAUSE they've cut off almost every natural free market price controlling mechanism. Oddly enough, we just got new insurance (or will very soon) and they emphasized how important it is to "shop around." Yes, welcome to the party morons.


    How many failures do you need? Now, does this mean that they've done NOTHING? No. I'm sure they have some effect, and even beneficial effects. Will a medicare recipient say they are glad they have it? Of course--to them it is "Free healthcare" but that ignores ALL the other negative effects, and of course...that the longer you go, the less viable it is.

    These government programs are never subjected to a cost-benefit analysis. Could I spend a Billion dollars and do SOME measure of good? Obviously--almost anyone could, but the question is whether spending that billion inefficiently (which is what happens, regularly) is preventing it from otherwise being spent in a way that is more beneficial.

    Its a bit like the Preventative care question. That was (briefly) touted as a great fix...until someone looked at the numbers and realized that the cost-benefit analysis didn't turn out so well. It may give someone some benefit, but it isn't efficient and therefore, sub-optimal.

    These Government programs fail, except when viewed through the government lens--meaning they never need to keep a budget, never have to be economically sound and never have to follow the rules that the private sector and individuals need to. THEN you get the illusion of success, but that's just a lie waiting to come crashing down.

    That's why you who rally behind yet another government boondoggle bother me so much. You are literally doing more harm than good, all because you can't be bothered to worry about things like sustainability or even viability, let alone issues like personal choice, limited government, liberty, etc. If you'd at least consider the economics which cannot be separated from the results (healthcare), I'd be elated.

    That's not what I'm seeing at all. I'm seeing a bunch of ideologically driven politicians who couldn't solve a problem to save their lives, pushing what benefits them, and damn reality and reasoning.

    KAM
    How many people in this country....and not just those that are getting it....do you think feel that Social Security is a failure? Or Medicare, if they know something about it?

    And here's the part that will really make you crazy....they can certainly be improved. Money can be saved, fraud can be better dealt with, and the consituency most people always leave out (but I won't), providers can and should be paid less in exchange for more efficiency in their own businesses provided by a better system. There are ways to decrease costs. But that's not enough. We will need more money. You can rail about how it's a bottomless pit, etc etc etc. But given your views, I suspect you would not mind a continuing and ongoing support for the military and their adventures (although that is the most ironic thing about "libertarians" and "conservatives"...they know nothing about the basis for conservatism...and it did NOT involve invading other countries for regime change). But back to the topic....yes, health care is expensive. And yes, I think everyone in the country deserves it. So we have to pay more taxes. We have the lowest tax rates among all Western countries. We need to pay more, and then we need to make sure we get our money's worth. Your last few bonuses went into your health insurance costs. That car you want to buy costs $2K more because of health insurance costs. And what do they give you? Do they examine you? Do they draw blood, or provide you medications? What exactly do health insurance companies provide?

    Now admittedly, you are not a supporter of them either, as you favor a direct payment plan. That's fine, except it should have been done a long time ago before costs got to the level they are now. I wouldn't mind a direct payment plan at all....if it covered overhead in my office, allowed my employees to get a raise and make a decent living, and I could put my kids through college. I personally don't give a damn about owning a yacht. I'm fine with my flats boat and my 9 year old car. But providers and health insurers need more money. They expect to be paid comparatively with other professions. You can't just decrease payments to one group alone and expect there to be good people wanting to go into that field. It's too late for direct payment, because nobody could afford the costs themselves without significant government contributions....and then we're just talking about different ways of organizing that contribution.

    It's a good point that was raised about everyone not understanding the situation as long as they have insurance. Saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "A Democrat is a Republican who lost his health insurance". There is no private system that will help us, and to do nothing will double the cost of health care by 2020. That's 2 trillion a year. It is unsustainable. Something has to be done, and we will all just have to pay for it, like the rest of the civilized world does. Raise my taxes....please. I'm fine with it as long as people aren't dying from lack of care. That's my family value, that's my morals. I wish that we didn't have to go through the political process to solve the problem but the fact is that we thought so highly of our system that enough people didn't want to change it until it is now too late. This was coming, it was easily predictable, and those of us that lobbied for it for years were dismissed. Even if nothing happens how, it willl in the future. There are no other choices at this point. It's better to spend energy making the reform work that to complain about big government and the resultant paranoia.

    That's my daily rambling vent.
  6. #1006  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I've posted the speech that Obama made a year or so ago where he said that while we can't initially get to a universal health care system, his ultimate goal is to get to that. So, while you don't feel that is the ultimate goal, the President apparently has that goal. If I need to find those comments again, I will try and do so but I'm sure you will say it was doctored (no pun intended) or taken out of context, or something like that.

    I agree with you there is no universal plan in any bill, but, the House Bill, which pushes for a public option plan, will end up taking on more and more people as employers decide it costs less to pay the 8% (the figure I've seen knocked around) of payroll tax than it is to pay the group health premium. You say that is BS? Have you talked to small business owners? I have and many will move employees to the public option if it costs less. So that is how this whole process gets started.

    You and I agree (gulp) about requiring insurance companies to waive pre-ex and I think we agree on requiring participation or be fined (though it has to be a stiff fine). I don't have a problem there. You and I seem to mainly disagree on what the ultimate goal is.
    Obama, quite possibly, would also favor massive gun control and free abortions available to all on the government's dime, if you could read his mind. What difference does that make? He can't get it. The country, you and everyone else would not allow it. If you think the country was arranged in the right way, that's the way things are supposed to work. You think Reagan, or Clinton, or even W got everything they wanted? This ongoing paranoia about the future if we have a public option now comes off as nothing but avoidance of responsibility, obstructionism and misdirection. I realize you and Kam think there's some vast conspiracy that's been working for years on exactly how we can take a small public option and turn it into a single payor plan. I wish that was true, since that's a great option, but it's not. There are enough checks and balances to prevent that. A little realism might be in order. I'm willing to be realistic about cost (we will all have to pay more) if you'll be realistic about the fact that nobody is conspiring to force everyone into a public option...and if they are, they're just stupid because that's not the way things happen.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1007  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    What is the incompatibility between the constitution and social democracy? Yes you like the only system you know...

    Im aware that you have a crap "pseudo-public" charity health system who "serves" the poor... Cant you see that if all americans instead of paying a insurance if they pay to the state and if this one provides free health care its a win-win situation? The insurance companies pursuit the profit, state dont, so all of your money will be invested on hospitals and the service itself. the taxes will be lower than the insurance and the service would be the same plus, a public hospital dont let you die because your insurance company screw you because the disease you have its genetic or something...
    We have this thing called liberty, where we are not beholden or dependent on the State. If you want to study the US Constitution and how and why it was established as it was, I'm sure you can find plenty of references about that.

    Other than that...you have no idea what I "know."

    Here's something to consider--with all your wonderful Social Democracies, why not open your doors for all the people here who prefer that system. Invite them to join your societies, help them learn your language. The United States has benefited over the decades from our immigrants, so I'm sure you could benefit from some American Immigrants.

    Why not let people who have similar views about government go to one of the many places that share their views, and let those of us who like the US Constitutional system keep it. That way everyone can be happy.

    KAM
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1008  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    No one is saying current US system is perfect--it's a weird hodge-podge of private and public. What is making the cost go so high is actually the waste from the private part, which is taking care of the generally healthy working population.
    Actually I think there is very little Free Market involved, private or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    If you really want a successful, efficient, cheap, high quality system--you'll have to go to single payer--something nearly every advanced country in the world has already done. They all realized it was MUCH MORE efficient AND effective to have the government take care of health care for everyone.

    What do you get for that? No one is uninsured; no such thing as bankruptcy because of healthcare costs; healthcare outcomes are much better; all for much cheaper than we have now.
    And all you have to do is become wholly dependent on the government. You make that choice if you want, do not try and make it for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You hate inefficiency? Then put your money where your mouth is and accept a single payer system--it works everywhere else.
    No, it really doesn't.

    KAM
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1009  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The truth of the matter is KAM hates Big government.
    Yes indeed I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    That's fine. Just stop supporting it with unsubstantiated claims like this doesn't work and that doesn't work. If you dig a bit deeper, the reasons many of the things you claim don't work (like Medicare, for example) is because the private sector is keeping all the profits without incurring the risk. If the money from the private sector would be paid towards Medicare instead, it would be completely solvent--a.k.a single payer.
    Yeah, no unsubstantiated claims here. You are fantasizing. ALL you are doing is talking about moving money around, doing NOTHING to address the issue of costs. Your alternative is rationed care--which is what happens in these glorious single-payer systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    It's like believing in God or not. You can present whatever logic that God doesn't exist but you can't shake the faith of a believer.

    This is why KAM seems like such an enigma. He/she stated in another thread that religion preventing him/her from accepting gay marriage. But what religion could possibly also accept thousands of people dying because they can't afford health insurance to see a doctor--something that KAM seems to accept readily in the current American health system.
    Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. I'll just tell you once--do not misrepresent what I have said.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1010  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You can't just slip this in without a challenge. Overall, the VA system has become the most efficient and high quality system in America. Certainly, like in any system, you will hear stories of some Vet not getting the perfect care, but health analysts all look to the VA as a complete success story.
    Actually, it you in another thread who posted about how Veterans are dying due to lack of healthcare? So, the VA is a complete success story, while failing to provide Veterans (even combat Vets as your other post states) healthcare.

    It is clear now why you are making no sense in regards to what I say--you don't even appear to be able to keep your own statements straight.

    Let me spell this out. The VA's job is to provide Care to Veterans, fails to do that (resulting in their deaths according to your other post), and then is called a complete success story. The depth of this incoherency is beyond my ability to deal with.

    KAM
  11. #1011  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, it you in another thread who posted about how Veterans are dying due to lack of healthcare? So, the VA is a complete success story, while failing to provide Veterans (even combat Vets as your other post states) healthcare.

    It is clear now why you are making no sense in regards to what I say--you don't even appear to be able to keep your own statements straight.

    Let me spell this out. The VA's job is to provide Care to Veterans, fails to do that (resulting in their deaths according to your other post), and then is called a complete success story. The depth of this incoherency is beyond my ability to deal with.

    KAM
    I'm going to make an assumption. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You know jack about the VA. Since I occasionally see patients there, let me give you a hint. The VA has the best patient information system in the nation, and is a model for the rest of the country, including private hospitals. While the care is institutional, it is generally high quality and many patients with insurance who are service-connected prefer to get their care at the VA. The problems with the VA have largely to do with the fact that it is inadequately funded. In other words, it's not the VA's fault if they do not have enough money to do their job, as you state it. It takes money, which politicians and taxpayers and libertarians like you have been unwilling to provide. If you want to know why the VA can't provide care to all the veterans, go take a look in the mirror.
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1012  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    How many people in this country....and not just those that are getting it....do you think feel that Social Security is a failure? Or Medicare, if they know something about it?
    Well, I have no count, but most people that I know (and they are hardly all conservatives) are very unhappy with it, and the prospect of it failing (which it is).

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And here's the part that will really make you crazy....they can certainly be improved. Money can be saved, fraud can be better dealt with, and the consituency most people always leave out (but I won't), providers can and should be paid less in exchange for more efficiency in their own businesses provided by a better system. There are ways to decrease costs. But that's not enough. We will need more money. You can rail about how it's a bottomless pit, etc etc etc.
    Oh that doesn't make me crazy--its good to hear you admit this.

    And yet the government who is railing against everyone else isn't even cleaning up their own mess. They'd rather blame insurance companies or accuse doctors of amputating limbs, than do what needs to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But given your views, I suspect you would not mind a continuing and ongoing support for the military and their adventures (although that is the most ironic thing about "libertarians" and "conservatives"...they know nothing about the basis for conservatism...and it did NOT involve invading other countries for regime change).
    Not really--I'm not in favor of nation-building. Of course one of the primary purposes of HAVING a government is to provide protection for the Nation, so yes, they must do this. That being said--they shouldn't waste money there either.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But back to the topic....yes, health care is expensive. And yes, I think everyone in the country deserves it. So we have to pay more taxes. We have the lowest tax rates among all Western countries.
    There is a major flaw in you thinking here--that is that high taxes results in high government revenues. In many cases, the opposite effect is what happens. If a SMART government wanted to get more revenue, they would LOWER taxes--especially now. High Tax Rate does not equal more government revenue. That's a downward spiral.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    We need to pay more, and then we need to make sure we get our money's worth. Your last few bonuses went into your health insurance costs. That car you want to buy costs $2K more because of health insurance costs. And what do they give you? Do they examine you? Do they draw blood, or provide you medications? What exactly do health insurance companies provide?
    How about we make sure we get our money's worth for what we ALREADY pay first, and THEN talk about taking more.

    As far as costs...yes, and nothing being proposed is going to do anything more than shift that money around, not reducing costs. You shift it off GM and put it somewhere else--nothing is gained.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Now admittedly, you are not a supporter of them either, as you favor a direct payment plan. That's fine, except it should have been done a long time ago before costs got to the level they are now.
    If I read just this, then you are my new best friend. YES, ABSOLUTELY.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I wouldn't mind a direct payment plan at all....if it covered overhead in my office, allowed my employees to get a raise and make a decent living, and I could put my kids through college.
    Well, that would be nice wouldn't it, buy would I fund those raises, live less decently and not put my kids in college? I'm willing to work that out via the free market--I'll trust that balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I personally don't give a damn about owning a yacht. I'm fine with my flats boat and my 9 year old car. But providers and health insurers need more money. They expect to be paid comparatively with other professions.
    Did you just say that insurers need more money?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You can't just decrease payments to one group alone and expect there to be good people wanting to go into that field. It's too late for direct payment, because nobody could afford the costs themselves without significant government contributions....and then we're just talking about different ways of organizing that contribution.
    It isn't just an overnight change. Recently, we met with a new Health insurance company, and they emphasized how important it was for us (the insured) to be "smart shoppers." FINALLY they've gotten back to SOME level of free market sensibility.

    I believe I suggested a limited (common care) direct payment system, because that is much more likely to be managed. Major medical...VERY far gone, although I think it can be improved moving forward. I've admitted that I don't see a practical way to completely return to direct payer. Perhaps later that would be possible, or additional pieces.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It's a good point that was raised about everyone not understanding the situation as long as they have insurance. Saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "A Democrat is a Republican who lost his health insurance". There is no private system that will help us, and to do nothing will double the cost of health care by 2020. That's 2 trillion a year. It is unsustainable. Something has to be done, and we will all just have to pay for it, like the rest of the civilized world does.
    I agree that things are not sustainable, but I think a private system can and would work. A government system is much less likely to be efficient. Despite the claims of profit being a problem--it is a perfect motivator to keep costs down. Government doesn't benefit from keeping costs down, because they AREN'T for profit. The effect will follow the motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Raise my taxes....please. I'm fine with it as long as people aren't dying from lack of care. That's my family value, that's my morals.
    It does me (or anyone) no good to pay more and as a result need more.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I wish that we didn't have to go through the political process to solve the problem but the fact is that we thought so highly of our system that enough people didn't want to change it until it is now too late. This was coming, it was easily predictable, and those of us that lobbied for it for years were dismissed. Even if nothing happens how, it willl in the future. There are no other choices at this point. It's better to spend energy making the reform work that to complain about big government and the resultant paranoia.

    That's my daily rambling vent.
    I'm not sure why you can't see that Big Government is inefficient, and is currently part of the problem. Paranoia would imply that government waste and inefficiency isn't already proven to be a problem, and it is.

    I'd love to be able to spend my energy making REAL reform work. I've said it dozens of times. I'm not against reform--this isn't reform--its just shifting the problem around.

    KAM
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1013  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm going to make an assumption. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You know jack about the VA. Since I occasionally see patients there, let me give you a hint. The VA has the best patient information system in the nation, and is a model for the rest of the country, including private hospitals. While the care is institutional, it is generally high quality and many patients with insurance who are service-connected prefer to get their care at the VA. The problems with the VA have largely to do with the fact that it is inadequately funded. In other words, it's not the VA's fault if they do not have enough money to do their job, as you state it. It takes money, which politicians and taxpayers and libertarians like you have been unwilling to provide. If you want to know why the VA can't provide care to all the veterans, go take a look in the mirror.
    I'm not making claims about the VA. I'm reiterating what you and Zeglo have said. I made no statement as to why--I'm restating he fact that the VA is not providing necessary care. That is not my claim, but yours.

    You really need to take that back, because I have NEVER spoken a single word about not funding the VA or giving our veterans exactly what they need.

    Completely unfair accusation.

    KAM
  14. #1014  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    We have this thing called liberty, where we are not beholden or dependent on the State. If you want to study the US Constitution and how and why it was established as it was, I'm sure you can find plenty of references about that.

    Other than that...you have no idea what I "know."

    Here's something to consider--with all your wonderful Social Democracies, why not open your doors for all the people here who prefer that system. Invite them to join your societies, help them learn your language. The United States has benefited over the decades from our immigrants, so I'm sure you could benefit from some American Immigrants.

    Why not let people who have similar views about government go to one of the many places that share their views, and let those of us who like the US Constitutional system keep it. That way everyone can be happy.

    KAM
    I know (more and less) your constitution and dont think it is so good! Most of the renoun jurists in the world say that US constitution is very tricky and rudimentar... Its the only one that have "Emendments"! However Portuguese constitution is considered one of the most perfect and complete.
    Lol! Lets not compare European liberty with "liberty" in USA please... If you call liberty to what you have my friend... Than I just feel pity 'cause you don't know what it is.
    You think liberty is to do what you want in the society without helping your pairs... you're just wrong.


    That's all very pretty but its not like it. Your neoliberal system favors the rich and powerfull so they can be richer and more powerfull. In the last few decades in European countries, the governaments full with lobbist are imposing american neoliberalism just for their own purpose, despite recent studies have shown that more than 80% of the people is not satisfied with such capitalism and think its wrong.

    EDIT: ontopic, I think that what Obama is doing in the health system its a small but very important step that will, without a doubt, help the millions of poors in US, providing the care that every human on earth should have.
  15. #1015  
    Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But back to the topic....yes, health care is expensive. And yes, I think everyone in the country deserves it. So we have to pay more taxes. We have the lowest tax rates among all Western countries.
    There is a major flaw in you thinking here--that is that high taxes results in high government revenues. In many cases, the opposite effect is what happens. If a SMART government wanted to get more revenue, they would LOWER taxes--especially now. High Tax Rate does not equal more government revenue. That's a downward spiral.
    And my friend... Keynes have proved you wrong and so did Sweden.
  16. #1016  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I find it hard to believe that schools are NOT promoting political agendas.
    So you have no evidence that it is occurring, just assuming it's true?

    It has been a while since I've been in school, but many of my teachers regularly displayed their bias which bled into their teaching.
    Yes, I know. Everyone is an expert in education, because they once went to school. I've had surgery, but that doesn't mean I can perform it.

    Let me ask you--teachers in public schools are public employees. How likely do you think it is that these teachers therefore favor the system which is their means of support? The NEA is a very left-leaning organization for example. Do you believe that this does not translate to the classroom?
    I think it's very unlikely, actually. Teachers, like actual people, run the range of liberal to conservative. More importantly, their parents run a similar range, and typically won't tolerate political proselytizing in their child's classroom.

    I've run across more silliness than you can imagine (as teacher, building administrator, and now as assistant superintendent), but political ideology in the classroom is not something that's a common issue.

    "Tolerance" in my experience is often (not always) code for advocacy.
    Of course. If kids learn to tolerate other ethnicities or sexual orientations, for example, they must be learning that subversive, "anti-hate agenda".
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1017  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So you have no evidence that it is occurring, just assuming it's true?
    I have enough evidence to convince me that it is occurring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Yes, I know. Everyone is an expert in education, because they once went to school. I've had surgery, but that doesn't mean I can perform it.
    You aren't making sense. I didn't say I was an expert on education now did I? I gave you "evidence" in the form of a personal example, and then you shift gears arguing about something I didn't say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think it's very unlikely, actually. Teachers, like actual people, run the range of liberal to conservative. More importantly, their parents run a similar range, and typically won't tolerate political proselytizing in their child's classroom.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I've run across more silliness than you can imagine (as teacher, team leader, assistant principal, principal, and now as assistant superintendent), but political ideology in the classroom is not something that's a common issue.
    What makes you so sure? If you are speaking from your experience, that's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course. If kids learn to tolerate other ethnicities or sexual orientations, for example, they must be learning that subversive, "anti-hate agenda".
    Don't be ridiculous.

    KAM
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1018  
    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    I know (more and less) your constitution and dont think it is so good! Most of the renoun jurists in the world say that US constitution is very tricky and rudimentar... Its the only one that have "Emendments"! However Portuguese constitution is considered one of the most perfect and complete.
    Lol! Lets not compare European liberty with "liberty" in USA please... If you call liberty to what you have my friend... Than I just feel pity 'cause you don't know what it is.
    You think liberty is to do what you want in the society without helping your pairs... you're just wrong.
    And people say that Americans are arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorifiedg View Post
    That's all very pretty but its not like it. Your neoliberal system favors the rich and powerfull so they can be richer and more powerfull. In the last few decades in European countries, the governaments full with lobbist are imposing american neoliberalism just for their own purpose, despite recent studies have shown that more than 80% of the people is not satisfied with such capitalism and think its wrong.
    Well, great. You keep enjoying your social democracy. Many people are eager to be given what belongs to someone else.

    I'll stay here with my Country and our backwards ways.

    And feel free to invite all those people who deserve healthcare over to Portugal. After all--every human should have what you enjoy right? You get to work on that.

    KAM
  19. #1019  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I have enough evidence to convince me that it is occurring.
    What evidence? Do you have any actual data to support it, other than "I have teacher friends"?

    You aren't making sense. I didn't say I was an expert on education now did I? I gave you "evidence" in the form of a personal example, and then you shift gears arguing about something I didn't say.
    You are willing to state with authority that teachers promote political ideology, based upon no data whatsoever. I actually am an expert in education....maybe I know a bit better than you.

    Of course, given the way that davidra's experience in medicine has been invalidated, I don't expect much different.

    What makes you so sure? If you are speaking from your experience, that's fine.
    I'm speaking from over 20 years in education, as well as being extremely informed as to current educational research. What data are you basing your conclusions on?
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  20. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1020  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    What evidence? Do you have any actual data to support it, other than "I have teacher friends"?
    Personal experience. If you don't believe me, that's your choice. I really don't care. You're the expert, right? So why would you care what I say or believe--its not like you'd change your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You are willing to state with authority that teachers promote political ideology, based upon no data whatsoever. I actually am an expert in education....maybe I know a bit better than you.
    Authority? What authority did I claim? Where is your data? Prove that teachers are apolitical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course, given the way that davidra's experience in medicine has been invalidated, I don't expect much different.
    Also false. I've never questioned his expertise as a provider of medical care.

    So many false arguments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I'm speaking from over 20 years in education, as well as being extremely informed as to current educational research. What data are you basing your conclusions on?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen any "data" from you either. You've spent 20 years in education, so you've got that much personal experience. Great. Now live up to your own criteria and provide evidence to support your views. Then you can demand it from me.

    KAM

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