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  1. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If you don't know the difference between setting a price, and paying that price, then your "fundamentals" are seriously lacking.
    Whose setting of prices and to whom? Manufacturers? Contract suppliers? Distributors? Agents? MDs? On-contract? Off-contract? GPOs? Insurance bureaucrats? Pharmacies? Management companies?
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    I would still appreciate an answer to my original question: "How has it been demonstrated, in tangible terms, that an insurance company's profitability, specifically, improves care?" Anyone?

    I've certainly made no claims, here or elsewhere, that Big Pharma is off the hook, in any way, shape, or form! By my estimation, they are a co-conspirator in the demise of healthcare economics today. However, they are dependent upon the current insurance-driven healthcare economy to derive the lion's share of their revenues.

    Lacking the insurance industry's direct participation in its own overhaul, what do you expect but change to occur from outside its domain? Seriously. The insurance industry is acting far more arrogant and belligerent than even Big Tobacco execs did when they lined up before congress and each, individually, declared that "Nicotine is not addictive".

    Please site an original reference source for your 2.2% private insurance industry margin claim.
    What Micael seems to be missing is your point...

    To answer your question, it does not.

    To those who don't understand profit... never mind, google it.

    Profit does not flow back anyplace... it will go to bonuses, corporate paid getaways, investments in other properties for the corporation,etc. Of course a budget for the next year will be set based on a previous budget...

    Expenses flows to doctors and others. We know how expenses are handled... wait... improved health care... wonder if that is an expense? lol
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  3. #83  
    I agree with you Theo. For me, trust in my health care is pretty important. When a doctor recommends a treatment, I want to know whether he or she is recommending it because its in my best interest or whether its just to make money.

    A good example is when I had some adult acne, I went to the dermatologist and he recommended a couple of different creams and stuff that he had his name on and was selling them out of his office.

    So I was thinking, is he recommending this stuff because its good for me, or because its good for him. I stopped going to him, because I had lost that doctor-patient trust.

    Right now, when the insurance approves or disapproves treatments, the same question comes up, are they doing this in the best interests of my health, or in their best interests for themselves. And I am not stupid enough to think that every decision they make is automatically win win for both of us.

    So it seems to me that when you have mixing of profits with health care, that question of trust is going to keep getting raised.
    Last edited by E.LesterBrown; 09/15/2009 at 04:43 PM. Reason: just to say something funny in the reason for editing box
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    [...] So it seems to me that when you have mixing of profits with health care, that question of trust is going to keep getting raised.
    A couple questions...
    1) Why is it only with health care that this applies?
    2) What makes you think that 'eliminating profit' from the system would eliminate trust being a question?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    To those who don't understand profit... never mind, google it.
    I'm not convinced that you really understand profit. Profit is simple. Revenue - Expenses = Profit. Most of the things you named would be classified by most corporations as expenses. Profit is what gets returned to the shareholders as dividends, or reinvested in the business (capital improvements, stock buybacks, etc.).
    [...] Of course a budget for the next year will be set based on a previous budget...
    And this would be different with the government running it... how?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Profit does not flow back anyplace... it will go to bonuses, corporate paid getaways, investments in other properties for the corporation,etc. Of course a budget for the next year will be set based on a previous budget...
    I forget how this works. Do shareholders usually have a greater or lesser tendency to invest in unprofitable companies?
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I forget how this works. Do shareholders usually have a greater or lesser tendency to invest in unprofitable companies?
    Ultimately, that's really been the problem since the mid-to-late 90's. Profitability has become disconnected from how people invest. I've been waiting since the tech boom for the next 'Depression'. When people were day-trading with their 401(k)s based on stock advice from the modern-day equivalent of shoe shine boys, there was bound to be trouble. When people were borrowing money at credit card rates to invest in the stock market, there was bound to be trouble. We has seen the enemy and it is us.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    A couple questions...
    1) Why is it only with health care that this applies?
    2) What makes you think that 'eliminating profit' from the system would eliminate trust being a question?
    1) No I think just about every transaction has an element of trust. The used car dealer selling me a lemon is just one example. But a bad car I can live with, bad health maybe I can't. Material possessions are not in the same category as a person's health or risking a person's life. Its just like what people always say about a guy who's been in an accident, wow you totaled your car, but that can be replaced, its lucky you did not get hurt yourself or die!

    2) I never said that I think eliminating profit would fix all the trust issues, and it would be pretty naiive for anyone to think that too. There's a lot of things that can make you not trust your health care.
    Poor standards for medical training, poor drug manufacturing regulations, etc etc etc. Just cause I did not mention these things doesn't mean they are not important too.
  9. groovy's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Ultimately, that's really been the problem since the mid-to-late 90's. Profitability has become disconnected from how people invest. I've been waiting since the tech boom for the next 'Depression'. When people were day-trading with their 401(k)s based on stock advice from the modern-day equivalent of shoe shine boys, there was bound to be trouble. When people were borrowing money at credit card rates to invest in the stock market, there was bound to be trouble. We has seen the enemy and it is us.
    True enough. And when everyone wants the big catch, potential profitability becomes more important than real or historic profitability. The problem is that most people aren't educated enough to evaluate potential profitability in any meaningful way.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The problem is that most people aren't educated enough to evaluate potential profitability in any meaningful way.
    Mr moderator if you keep veering off the thread topic maybe you just should start another thread ha ha
    but trying to bring the discussion back to health care, if the public is so stupid as you say, that could explain why shouting angry talking points at town hall meetings is so effective while rational discussions of how profits and other economic factors drive health care is not, at least so far.
    Last edited by E.LesterBrown; 09/15/2009 at 08:28 PM.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    1) No I think just about every transaction has an element of trust. The used car dealer selling me a lemon is just one example.
    So, why aren't you advocating a government takeover of the used car system? Let's not fool ourselves that that's really what's being debated here if we're only discussing HR 3200. Even with something like the Healthy Americans Act, it's still a government takeover in many respects. It's just a bit less intrusive from a Federal standpoint.
    But a bad car I can live with, bad health maybe I can't.
    In what sort of cases will you have no control over what happens?
    Material possessions are not in the same category as a person's health or risking a person's life.
    Why should they be any different from the government's perspective? Your health means little to nothing to me from a real perspective, and vice versa.
    Its just like what people always say about a guy who's been in an accident, wow you totaled your car, but that can be replaced, its lucky you did not get hurt yourself or die!
    People always say a lot of things that they don't really mean. That's a horrible way of evaluating something. Ever actually tell someone how it's really going when they ask that question?
    2) I never said that I think eliminating profit would fix all the trust issues, and it would be pretty naiive for anyone to think that too.
    Why would it fix _any_ trust issues? If you don't trust your doctor because he might be getting free or subsidized tchotchkes from pharmaceutical manufacturers, why would you think that legislators getting even more from all sorts of lobbyists would really have an interest in making your health better?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Mr moderator if you keep veering off the thread topic maybe you just should start another thread ha ha
    How is it off topic? The question was asked about profitability.
    but trying to bring the discussion back to health care, if the public is so stupid as you say, that could explain why shouting angry talking points at town hall meetings is so effective while rational discussions of how profits and other economic factorS drive health care is not, at least so far.
    Now we're starting to get somewhere. He's not saying the public is any more stupid than you are assuming by saying that they can't be trusted to evaluate their own economic decisions on health care within a for-profit system. Or that you shouldn't have to make informed decisions about whether you should trust your doctor or insurance company.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Mr moderator if you keep veering off the thread topic maybe you just should start another thread ha ha
    but trying to bring the discussion back to health care, if the public is so stupid as you say, that could explain why shouting angry talking points at town hall meetings is so effective while rational discussions of how profits and other economic factorS drive health care is not, at least so far.
    I didn't say anyone was stupid. I said they're not educated enough to determine the future profitability of a given company in a given industry. For example, the average person with a finance degree probably won't be educated enough in enterprise flash drives to determine the future profitability of a company that specializes in such a field.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I didn't say anyone was stupid. I said they're not educated enough to determine the future profitability of a given company in a given industry. For example, the average person with a finance degree probably won't be educated enough in enterprise flash drives to determine the future profitability of a company that specializes in such a field.
    Fair enough, 'uneducated about economics' can be a proper substitute for 'stupid' in that post as far as I am concerned.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Fair enough, 'uneducated about economics' can be a proper substitute for 'stupid' in that post as far as I am concerned.
    No. Uneducated means uneducated. The average person is capable of understanding how the market works with a little education and learning to not make their decisions based purely on emotion. Stupid is far worse. Stupid means even if you were educated, it wouldn't do any good.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #96  
    T: why aren't you advocating a government takeover of the used car system?
    L:because being dealt a bad car is not the same thing as being dealt bad health.

    T:Your health means little to nothing to me from a real perspective, and vice versa.
    L: Toby I hope you don't mean that. I volunteer at the VA hospital because I care about other people's health, including yours.

    T:Why would it fix _any_ trust issues? If you don't trust your doctor because he might be getting free or subsidized tchotchkes from pharmaceutical manufacturers, why would you think that legislators getting even more from all sorts of lobbyists would really have an interest in making your health better?
    L: I totally agree, lobbyists are a major problem. Many are trying as hard as they can to stop any health care reform for purely economic reasons.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No. Uneducated means uneducated. The average person is capable of understanding how the market works with a little education and learning to not make their decisions based purely on emotion. Stupid is far worse. Stupid means even if you were educated, it wouldn't do any good.
    Toby, I completely agree that uneducated is a better choice of words for the point I was making. If lack of education is a major problem with the public at large, angry emotional talking points At these town halls have been a poor substitute for a rational and detailed discussion of the economic factors involved with the delivery of health care.
    Last edited by E.LesterBrown; 09/15/2009 at 09:29 PM.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    T: why aren't you advocating a government takeover of the used car system?
    L:because being dealt a bad car is not the same thing as being dealt bad health.
    Yes, you have far more control over your health outcome even without government intervention.
    T:Your health means little to nothing to me from a real perspective, and vice versa.
    L: Toby I hope you don't mean that.
    Why? I obviously don't _want_ you to have bad health. However, my first concern is always going to be the health of people I have direct interaction with: 1) first my own since I'm no good to anyone else without taking care of myself, 2) second my immediate family since they are the ones I've made a conscious decision to be responsible for, 3) third my family and friends since they directly affect my life, 4) fourth would be community, and etc. etc. etc.
    I volunteer at the VA hospital because I care about other people's health, including yours.
    I have never, and will likely never be seeking care at a VA hospital, so your volunteering at one bears _no_ impact on my health. That's my point. I contribute to various entities that may provide health services, but if they happen to affect you directly, that's really not why I do it. That's what I mean by a real sense. If I pay directly for someone else's medical bills, that's real. Otherwise, it gets more abstract.
    T:Why would it fix _any_ trust issues? If you don't trust your doctor because he might be getting free or subsidized tchotchkes from pharmaceutical manufacturers, why would you think that legislators getting even more from all sorts of lobbyists would really have an interest in making your health better?
    L: I totally agree, lobbyists are a major problem. Many are trying as hard as they can to stop any health care reform for purely economic reasons.
    Except that when one trusts in economic reasons for making decisions, there is actually ultimately less trust involved in the decision. If one assumes that everyone else is acting in their own best interest, one never has to guess as to whether others have one's personal best interest in mind.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #99  
    First you say my health means little or nothing to you then you say it does. Toby I am sincerely getting confused here. Anyway I need to sign off now, but I look forward to learning more about your ideas to fix health care in the future. Take care, Les
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    First you say my health means little or nothing to you then you say it does.
    No. I'm saying that your personal health care means little to me in a real sense. And vice versa. You respond that you volunteer at the VA hospital. Unless I can get health care at your local VA hospital, you apparently de facto agree with me.
    Toby I am sincerely getting confused here.
    I don't believe that for a minute.
    Anyway I need to sign off now, but I look forward to learning more about your ideas to fix health care in the future. Take care, Les
    The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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