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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #881  
    Again, the problem isn't how to pay for this. The problem is it's the wrong approach to begin with.

    No, I don't believe people should be forced to buy health insurance. Not for any reason.

    The issue wasn't about "having health insurance". It became the issue because the Dems want to ram public healthcare down our throats. The issue was about health COSTS, and how to reduce them.

    They totally missed the boat.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #882  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Abortion, hmmm nasty part of this whole topic, Does a woman have the right to decide, YES, but so does a man, if your going to take the stance that its murder, or killing, or or, then by default every time a guy uses a condom, gets a vasectomy, or a woman gets her tubes tied, or uses contraceptives, its murder, killing etc etc. I just love the thought process that goes with some people.
    Please explain exactly how these are the same.
  3. #883  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Again, the problem isn't how to pay for this. The problem is it's the wrong approach to begin with.

    No, I don't believe people should be forced to buy health insurance. Not for any reason.

    The issue wasn't about "having health insurance". It became the issue because the Dems want to ram public healthcare down our throats. The issue was about health COSTS, and how to reduce them.

    They totally missed the boat.
    I disagree....I see it far too often people unable to get health insurance or, if they can get it, pre-existing conditions aren't covered. I'm not talking about folks on group plans, I'm talking people who are applying for individual coverage. How would you get these folks covered if you don't force insurance companies to accept them regardless of their health? I have had many clients who could afford the coverage, but simply couldn't get it. In SC they could then go on the state "pool", but in SC that plan sucks and is extremely expensive.

    The thought of requiring people to get health coverage really doesn't sit well with me, but I don't know how you guarantee someone the access without requiring everyone. I'm open to ideas on that...thoughts?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  4. #884  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ...clip...if your going to take the stance that its murder, or killing, or or, then by default every time a guy uses a condom, gets a vasectomy, or a woman gets her tubes tied, or uses contraceptives, its murder, killing etc etc. ...clip...
    I think most people consider conception the beginning of a new human life.
    An egg or a sperm cell have the potential to begin a new human life.
  5. #885  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I haven't seen the nation this polarized since the Vietnam war.
    I agree....and the sad thing is Obama sold many people on how he knew how to bring people together. Instead, he goes after controversial programs (which is his right) and seems fine with "class" warfare. Where is the guy who promised to bring everyone together?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #886  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I disagree....I see it far too often people unable to get health insurance or, if they can get it, pre-existing conditions aren't covered. I'm not talking about folks on group plans, I'm talking people who are applying for individual coverage. How would you get these folks covered if you don't force insurance companies to accept them regardless of their health? I have had many clients who could afford the coverage, but simply couldn't get it. In SC they could then go on the state "pool", but in SC that plan sucks and is extremely expensive.

    The thought of requiring people to get health coverage really doesn't sit well with me, but I don't know how you guarantee someone the access without requiring everyone. I'm open to ideas on that...thoughts?
    People are already guaranteed access to health care in this country. You can't be turned away from any hospital based on your ability to pay. We already cover that.

    Don't mix that up with health insurance coverage.

    You seem to be ignoring my point that we're missing the boat with this plan, i.e., we're driving costs up for everyone, as opposed to reducing health care costs. Rather than arguing about how we can pay for the plan, we should be starting fresh with a different approach.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #887  
    I could type out a whole response, but I rather plagiarize.

    I wouldn't no how to put it any better;
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I disagree....I see it far too often people unable to get health insurance or, if they can get it, pre-existing conditions aren't covered. I'm not talking about folks on group plans, I'm talking people who are applying for individual coverage. How would you get these folks covered if you don't force insurance companies to accept them regardless of their health? I have had many clients who could afford the coverage, but simply couldn't get it. In SC they could then go on the state "pool", but in SC that plan sucks and is extremely expensive.

    The thought of requiring people to get health coverage really doesn't sit well with me, but I don't know how you guarantee someone the access without requiring everyone. I'm open to ideas on that...thoughts?
    I know far too many people/friends (long-time working americans) that can't afford insurance.
  8. #888  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    People are already guaranteed access to health care in this country. You can't be turned away from any hospital based on your ability to pay. We already cover that.

    Don't mix that up with health insurance coverage.

    You seem to be ignoring my point that we're missing the boat with this plan, i.e., we're driving costs up for everyone, as opposed to reducing health care costs. Rather than arguing about how we can pay for the plan, we should be starting fresh with a different approach.
    I'm sorry, I just disagree with ya. If I can, use me as an example. I've had back problems over the years that required 2 surgeries and in which I tried "injections" prior to that as well as physical therapy, accupuncture, and chiropractic care. They only thing that truly worked was the surgery. Now, had I not had health insurance, I would have had probably around $25 or $30,000 in expenses (probably on the conservative side) between all those attempts. I likely could have worked my way through that financially, but many people simply can't. Showing up at the emergency room with no health coverage would not have helped me....and trust me....I needed help.

    Now....I will agree with you that they are getting away from ways to keep medical costs down. I don't believe they are addressing that issue and that means insurance premiums will be going up. So, I do agree with you there. But on the other issue....we will have to agree to disagree.

    Oh....and I still say it should be a state issue, not a federal issue. But we have definitely been down that road before as well.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  9. #889  
    All i want to say on this and many other bills that i do not agree with is to remind everyone what kinda of country we live in.

    We are a Republic not a democracy. At least that is what we are supposed to be.....


    And this bill is not sitting well with me for several reasons. How can i pay that fine? Our jails are overfilled. education of the public would be much better. Oh and lets not forget how we have no money for social security as it is... so how long are we gonna have money to support this bill.

    I will let other people come up with solutions.. i would just like my questions answered
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #890  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I'm sorry, I just disagree with ya. If I can, use me as an example. I've had back problems over the years that required 2 surgeries and in which I tried "injections" prior to that as well as physical therapy, accupuncture, and chiropractic care. They only thing that truly worked was the surgery. Now, had I not had health insurance, I would have had probably around $25 or $30,000 in expenses (probably on the conservative side) between all those attempts. I likely could have worked my way through that financially, but many people simply can't. Showing up at the emergency room with no health coverage would not have helped me....and trust me....I needed help.

    Now....I will agree with you that they are getting away from ways to keep medical costs down. I don't believe they are addressing that issue and that means insurance premiums will be going up. So, I do agree with you there. But on the other issue....we will have to agree to disagree.

    Oh....and I still say it should be a state issue, not a federal issue. But we have definitely been down that road before as well.
    Then I take it you're for penalizing, maybe even criminalizing people who do things that affect our health care costs, such as; smoking, drinking, obesity, risky sports, eating bad foods, etc. Steep fines and jailtime oughta do em...
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #891  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    ...I know far too many people/friends (long-time working americans) that can't afford insurance.
    They don't need to afford it. Micael said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    People are already guaranteed access to health care in this country. You can't be turned away from any hospital based on your ability to pay. We already cover that....
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #892  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    They don't need to afford it. Micael said:



    no fair... out of context. I didn't say access to insurance, I said access to health care.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #893  
    The news cast I was watching, (while the vote creeped closer to 218), mentioned that a similar opposition occurred when Social Security was on the table.
    We are now legally required to pay it, and so many now have something they may otherwise hadn't.

    Again, I mentioned earlier that I hadn't been following this until recently, so the parallel the news station drew may have been a bad comparison.
    Just call me Berd.
  14. #894  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Then I take it you're for penalizing, maybe even criminalizing people who do things that affect our health care costs, such as; smoking, drinking, obesity, risky sports, eating bad foods, etc. Steep fines and jailtime oughta do em...
    Why are you making such an extreme leap?
    Just call me Berd.
  15. #895  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    no fair... out of context. I didn't say access to insurance, I said access to health care.
    So then throwing the emergency visit into this context prolly detracts from the concern that many are left without health insurance.
    Just call me Berd.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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    #896  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    The news cast I was watching, (while the vote creeped closer to 218), mentioned that a similar opposition occurred when Social Security was on the table.
    We are now legally required to pay it, and so many now have something they may otherwise hadn't.

    Again, I mentioned earlier that I hadn't been following this until recently, so the parallel the news station drew may have been a bad comparison.
    What an interesting comparison, and a slightly different model, I believe. It's my understanding that you cannot receive Social Security benefits unless you have paid in to the system (or your spouse, on your behalf). The healthcare bill covers everyone, right? Can someone confirm that?

    Under this bill, is *everyone* covered?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #897  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Why are you making such an extreme leap?
    To illustrate a point?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #898  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Why are you making such an extreme leap?
    And (in looking back at it), I don't think it's an extreme leap. If we're going to force people to pay into the system, under stiff penalties and even years of jailtime, how is that comparison extreme? We're already doing it somewhat, with the massive taxes on cigarettes (I wonder how much of that tax goes towards lowering health costs, and how much of it goes to the pork barrel).

    It's really the next step towards lowering "health care costs", right?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #899  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What an interesting comparison, and a slightly different model, I believe. It's my understanding that you cannot receive Social Security benefits unless you have paid in to the system (or your spouse, on your behalf). The healthcare bill covers everyone, right? Can someone confirm that?

    Under this bill, is *everyone* covered?
    I think you might be correct.
    You are with SS.

    Not necessarily my opinion, but my father in law thinks it should be similar to SS, in that it comes out at a percentage of your income - like FICA & MED.
    Just call me Berd.
  20. #900  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Again, the problem isn't how to pay for this. The problem is it's the wrong approach to begin with.


    I know. Those other industrialized nations (ALL of them) are crazy.

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