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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #781  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I would like to also take this opportunity to note how much more pleasant conversations have been these last few weeks, compared to prior to that. Even people I disagree with on most every point have been generally pleasant to talk to. I just want to say that I appreciate that.

    KAM
    +1
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #782  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Wow, kinda all over.
    Yes, guilty as charged on that. I'll try to reign it in, but things hit many tangents.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Creationism is religion in the guise of a theory. I believe I said that. Let me check
    .
    .
    .
    yup, there it is. And yes, imposing a religion through threat of violence or infecting a school district with it is equal in my world.
    Well, first of all...Creationism is a theory. It isn't a scientific theory, but it is still a theory.

    I find it odd that people (perhaps you are an example) that separate belief into categories--Religious belief is a problem for you, but secular belief (not fact mind you) is ok. Radical Secularism is ok, but even non-radical religion is like garlic to your vampire.

    TALKING about a non-scientific theory is equal to killing people to force conversion? Wow, you seem to lack most any ability to discern degrees of difference.

    Infecting? That's quite a hyperbolic, and dramatic characterization isn't it?

    So, would you saying that talking about this non-scientific theory would be INDOCTRINATING students?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Now, no offense but anyone care to stay on thread topic since we have a big vote tomorrow?
    I'd hate to make a promise I cannot keep. But don't worry--I'm calling my Congressman, but I don't have that glitzy symbol on my phone.

    KAM
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #783  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Sigh. In that same post did I not state the following:
    "I for one will fight against Amnesty as hard as I have fought for health care reform."

    What do you want me to say? "Oh really, there's this potential legislation which may or may not significantly increase the price tag of health care reform, so by all means, lets scrap that."?
    Perhaps I wasn't clear. I realize you said you won't push for amnesty. However, you apparently support the people who will. Further, as I've alluded to--these are all just pieces of the same Progressive/Statist puzzle.

    A beer isn't going to undo the damage your cohorts will (or try to) do...even without your help. And when you are proven wrong, it will be too late. A beer won't cool those fires. Only the Power of Barack Obama behind a beer can solve problems like that, and you are no Barack Obama.

    KAM
  4. #784  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The statement you just made for me?

    Imposing your religion on me includes things like teaching creationism in schools in the guise of an equal theory to evolution.
    When have you heard me say anything about creationism? I never participated in that discussion and you would have no idea what I think. Not sure what public schools are like on the west coast, but no religion being taught in public schools around here. Now private schools, can't help you there....I think it is their right to teach religion if it is a private school.

    It's funny how folks like you get "offended" at something like a prayer, saying it is imposing something on you, yet you don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. I never understood that double standard. Now, if I required you to bow your head and pray....I could agree with you....but I have yet to hear about a situation where someone was forced to bow their head and pray (not counting when the children were required to sing the Obama song). It's like if you're in a foreign country and they sing their country's National Anthem, I would stand out of respect, but I wouldn't be expected to "pledge" to their country. Get a grip.
    Last edited by clemgrad85; 11/06/2009 at 02:36 PM.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  5. #785  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, first of all...Creationism is a theory. It isn't a scientific theory, but it is still a theory.
    There's no such thing. A theory follows the scientific method.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I find it odd that people (perhaps you are an example) that separate belief into categories--Religious belief is a problem for you, but secular belief (not fact mind you) is ok. Radical Secularism is ok, but even non-radical religion is like garlic to your vampire.

    TALKING about a non-scientific theory is equal to killing people to force conversion? Wow, you seem to lack most any ability to discern degrees of difference.
    I simply adhere to the principle which makes our country the greatest. The gov't has no role in any particular religion and can not limit your ability to worship/believe what you will. In the case of teaching a religious belief such as creationism, that steps over that line. Students wearing t-shirts supporting the belief or even discussing it amongst themselves on their time, their right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Infecting? That's quite a hyperbolic, and dramatic characterization isn't it?
    And intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    So, would you saying that talking about this non-scientific theory would be INDOCTRINATING students?
    See above. Their right in schools on THEIR time.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    ...but I don't have that glitzy symbol on my phone.
    You have to be part of the indoctrinated/socialist/fascist. We ALL have them. Makes it easier for us to get our "orders".

  6. #786  
    Those who scream tolerance the loudest are usually the least tolerant
  7. #787  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Perhaps I wasn't clear. I realize you said you won't push for amnesty. However, you apparently support the people who will. Further, as I've alluded to--these are all just pieces of the same Progressive/Statist puzzle.
    Whoa whoa whoa there! You better check your facts on who supports Amnesty. There are plenty of Labor Dems that oppose illegal immigrants and Amnesty and plenty of Repubs that support Amnesty.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #788  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    It's funny how folks like you get "offended" at something like a prayer, saying it is imposing something on you, yet you don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. I never understood that double standard.
    HEALTHCARE "REFORM"--SAY NO (see on topic). Hold out for REAL REFORM.

    I don't want to pick on daThomas here, so this only applies if he adopts what I'm going to talk about. But it seems to me that Statists have a special exception for Religion...a negative one, where it is specially restricted instead of specially protected which is what the First Amendment includes. Somehow the Statist has managed to turn things completely around (which is normal for them) and make A guaranteed freedom (acknowledging the natural born nature of that freedom) into a special restriction.

    They do this by spreading the falsehood that being exposed to, or merely observing a Religious practice is "imposing" it on someone. Well, that's simply false. "Tolerance" has given way to the practice of demanding that others modify their individual, personal behavior because you claim to be "offended." Well, you can be offended if you like, but unless I am forcing you to adopt my beliefs, you cannot demand that everyone maintain a bubble of secularism around you. Your rights do not extend to far as to infringe upon mine.

    However, that's exactly what the Statist believes--that my rights CAN be infringed if they deem it as necessary or even if they simple want something that infringes upon my rights.

    The reason I think this anti-Religious stance is so common amongst Statists is that they depend on destroying moral beliefs that might conflict with their own agenda--which has few moral grounds if any. Radical Secularism is a prerequisite for modern American Statism. I make that distinction because there is a such thing as Religious Statism.

    The statist MUST attack and destroy Religion, because it provides a moral framework that doesn't allow them to forward their goals. So, they attack people that have religious beliefs, constantly attempting to paint them as radicals, even when they are very mild and tolerant of others, and they turn what our Constitution guarantees (right to freedom of religion) and turns it into a restriction, where the practice of religion must be hidden away from the public eye. Up is down, black is white.

    KAM
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #789  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    There's no such thing. A theory follows the scientific method.
    That is not true.
    From Dictionary.com
    –noun, plural -ries.
    1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
    2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
    3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
    4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
    5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
    6. contemplation or speculation.
    7. guess or conjecture.


    As you can see, many of those definitions do not include the Scientific method, most plainly--numbers 6 and 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I simply adhere to the principle which makes our country the greatest. The gov't has no role in any particular religion and can not limit your ability to worship/believe what you will. In the case of teaching a religious belief such as creationism, that steps over that line. Students wearing t-shirts supporting the belief or even discussing it amongst themselves on their time, their right.
    Teaching (also called discussing) Creationism as an idea (theory) without forcing one to believe it does not cross any Constitutional line. Nor does discussing Evolution, or any theory of any kind.

    Of course, if Government got out of the Education business (at least at the Federal level) like I advocate, we wouldn't have this problem now would we?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And intended.
    Didn't you criticize me for that...or are you trying to be ironic...or whatever that would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    See above. Their right in schools on THEIR time.
    No, I'm talking about school time. Are you saying that an idea cannot be discussed on school time--even though there is no demand or pressure to believe it?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You have to be part of the indoctrinated/socialist/fascist. We ALL have them. Makes it easier for us to get our "orders".
    I figured as much.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/06/2009 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Blown tag
  10. #790  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    When have you heard me say anything about creationism? I never participated in that discussion and you would have no idea what I think.
    You made a statement and then attributed to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Not sure what public schools are like on the west coast, but no religion being taught in public schools around here. Now private schools, can't help you there....I think it is their right to teach religion if it is a private school.
    Kansas Education Board First to Back 'Intelligent Design'
    Schools to Teach Doubts About Evolutionary Theory


    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    It's funny how folks like you get "offended" at something like a prayer, saying it is imposing something on you, yet you don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. I never understood that double standard. Now, if I required you to bow your head and pray....I could agree with you....but I have yet to hear about a situation where someone was forced to bow their head and pray (not counting when the children were required to sing the Obama song). It's like if you're in a foreign country and they sing their country's National Anthem, I would stand out of respect, but I wouldn't be expected to "pledge" to their country. Get a grip.
    Us folks don't get offended at people practicing their religious choice. We get offended when any one of those groups attempts to impose their beliefs on others from whatever method, violence or gov't promotion.

    This is not the absence of religion, it is the absolute protection of religion for everyone.
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #791  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Whoa whoa whoa there! You better check your facts on who supports Amnesty. There are plenty of Labor Dems that oppose illegal immigrants and Amnesty and plenty of Repubs that support Amnesty.
    Yes, but those Union folks are just tools for the Democrats. President Obama has done a lot to buy off you folks and of course he is heavily in bed with SEIU, but some of the more traditional Union types--pipefitters, carpenters, perhaps...they'll get thrown under that bus for the larger Progressive Good. Many of these folks don't realize that with the things they think they want, they get many things they do not want.

    You are right about Republicans--many of them support it too.

    It's a really simple issue for me--you don't reward bad behavior (in this case breaking the law), because that enables it, and creates more of it. Anyone that's ever trained a puppy or child understands this simple principle. You reap what you sow.

    KAM
  12. #792  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    No, I'm talking about school time. Are you saying that an idea cannot be discussed on school time--even though there is no demand or pressure to believe it?
    Absolutely! Why? Because you're squandering my right to an education while discussing your magic stories. You can do it all day long outside of the time I'm here to be educated with facts. And please don't go down the road that creationism is just as legitimate a theory as Evolution. Please don't make me break out FSM.
  13. #793  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, but those Union folks are just tools for the Democrats. President Obama has done a lot to buy off you folks and of course he is heavily in bed with SEIU, but some of the more traditional Union types--pipefitters, carpenters, perhaps...they'll get thrown under that bus for the larger Progressive Good.
    I think you've convinced yourself that the entirety of Dems are Dennis Kucinichs. Hardly.
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #794  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Absolutely! Why? Because you're squandering my right to an education while discussing your magic stories. You can do it all day long outside of the time I'm here to be educated with facts. And please don't go down the road that creationism is just as legitimate a theory as Evolution. Please don't make me break out FSM.
    So, by that logic we cannot discussion fictional stories. But of course you are fooling yourself if you think that even an even amount of Precious school time is dedicated to actual learning, and not babysitting and social experiments. If only Schools DID concentrate on fundamental learning, we might not be wasting billions upon billions of dollars producing illiterate "graduates."

    Creationism is a perfectly legitimate THEORY, but it is not a scientific one. I would never attempt to portray something that is not scientific as such.

    Similarly, Evolution is still a theory--an ever changing theory, which is scientific. Contrary to popular belief, Science isn't the same as factual. Science USES facts, but scientific theory is not fact--it works towards being a fact.

    Let me get back to your preference here. I prefer that my schools not waste time for precious education on a bunch of social engineering, and pushing a statist agenda or singing the praises of Barack Obama, but they do that. Why does your preference not to talk about "magical stories" trump my preference?

    I'm not sure what school you went to, but I'm guessing that you spent plenty of time talking about things that weren't facts, and figures.

    In my GRADE SCHOOL social studies class we discussed world religions. Since many of them include beliefs about creationism, why should they be banned from talking about that? There is nothing anti-constitutional about that.

    If they had a Religion class in which you participate in a Religion, then that would be a different story, but no secular schools do that--as far as I'm aware.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/06/2009 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Additional Point
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #795  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I think you've convinced yourself that the entirety of Dems are Dennis Kucinichs. Hardly.
    No, I'm sorry if I've mistakenly left you with that impression. I fully understand that not all Democrats are like that. Your leadership however, is fully dedicated to idealogical progressivism, and it pressures the rank and file into supporting these goals with a high degree of success.

    The Democrat party has been totally taken over by progressives. BTW-it really bothers me to call these Statists "progressive" in that progress is a good thing. That's hardly ever what they advocate, except progression into Statism of course.

    KAM
  16. #796  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    So, by that logic we cannot discussion fictional stories. But of course you are fooling yourself if you think that even an even amount of Precious school time is dedicated to actual learning, and not babysitting and social experiments. If only Schools DID concentrate on fundamental learning, we might not be wasting billions upon billions of dollars producing illiterate "graduates."

    Creationism is a perfectly legitimate THEORY, but it is not a scientific one. I would never attempt to portray something that is not scientific as such.

    Similarly, Evolution is still a theory--an ever changing theory, which is scientific. Contrary to popular belief, Science isn't the same as factual. Science USES facts, but scientific theory is not fact--it works towards being a fact.
    You're jumping back and forth here. It's just fiction can't we discuss fiction. Sure discuss any religious writings you want as fiction. Just as long as you're actually teaching concepts of literature. My 7th grade teacher taught poetry with the Rolling Stones "Mother's Little Helper".

    And yes, science works towards being fact honestly, as opposed to the creationists.

    Now you can't say creationism is not a scientific theory being put up as equal to Evolution, because it was. See Kansas School Board above.


    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Let me get back to your preference here. I prefer that my schools not waste time for precious education on a bunch of social engineering, and pushing a statist agenda or singing the praises of Barack Obama, but they do that. Why does your preference not to talk about "magical stories" trump my preference?
    Ok, enough of your singing the praises of Obama nonsense. Please research that and you will find that was a civics class in which several presidents were sung about including W Bush. So please stop characterizing it in the manner you are as it's absolutely disingenuous and soils your other points.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'm not sure what school you went to, but I'm guessing that you spent plenty of time talking about things that weren't facts, and figures.
    Catholic school. Nuns and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    In my GRADE SCHOOL social studies class we discussed world religions. Since many of them include beliefs about creationism, why should they be banned from talking about that? There is nothing anti-constitutional about that.
    Again, these are discussed in the proper context. Not related as creationism was to be taught as an alternative to science. I think you see the difference.
  17. #797  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The Democrat party has been totally taken over by progressives. BTW-it really bothers me to call these Statists "progressive" in that progress is a good thing. That's hardly ever what they advocate, except progression into Statism of course.

    KAM
    You really seem to like your new word.
  18. #798  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You made a statement and then attributed to me.
    That line makes absolutely no sense, LOL. In other words, you can't explain why you made the comment about me and creationism. Good grief.

    So....your point? It's okay to have your point of view but not other's point of view? That's quite typical of liberals. Heavy sigh....same ole BS.


    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Us folks don't get offended at people practicing their religious choice. We get offended when any one of those groups attempts to impose their beliefs on others from whatever method, violence or gov't promotion.

    This is not the absence of religion, it is the absolute protection of religion for everyone.
    Again....as said above....your view is fine, but God forbid (oops, sorry, didn't mean to bring God into this) a religious view be heard. Just because a religious view is expressed does not mean it is being forced upon you. Wow, are you afraid that you will be changed if another view is expressed? Good grief. LOL
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #799  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I did not imply they were opposites.
    Please reread your statement. It may not have been your intent.
    However, in the past when I have mentioned that other countries are far too dependent upon our military and other 'aid', I have been accused of being isolationist. AAMOF, you have been one of those who levied that charge. So, it's ironic that you should bring this up.
    I don't recall that charge, but if you say so...
    It doesn't? So, our spending more than the rest of the world combined on our military and having bases throughout the world does not imply domination and subordination from some perspectives?
    You're so sneaky: "from some perspectives?". I guess I'd have to agree since you wrote it that way. "Some perspectives" think aliens are stealing their luggage too.
    If we decide we are going to go into Pakistan to hunt for Osama Bin Laden, who's going to stop us?
    Well, we could either do that, or maybe go hang out at the mall? I think there's a bit more to it than that, don't you?

    The day that someone can sit behind a protected wall and take pot shots at us at will and with impunity is the day we might as well close up shop.
    That's OK. I'm not unfamiliar with going it alone.
    I'm still with you on the your main point... I just hate the word Imperialism when applied to US foreign policy. I think it's based on "some perspectives" that are (IMHO) uninformed.
    That was my point in using the term 'effective imperialism'. We are not a traditionally imperialist nation like some European nations have been. We don't roll in with an army in most cases and subvert everything (although we do it on occasion).
    Well I get the subversion bit, but for imperialistic goals? Can I have an example? Iraq is NOT an example, if that's where you were going.
    However, wielding 'protection', charity, and trade as weapons to get our will can be just as coercive and subordinating as military force.
    "wielding"? "as weapons to get our will"? LOL! You really have a way with words! Who would ever want to trade in those conditions?! Damn those evil capitalists leveraging goods and services for profit!

    Anyone can choose not to trade with us, and go somewhere else. If they can't leave or say no, it's not trade... it's probably military force.

    And like we're the only ones negotiating to get what we want. I don't agree with that statement at all. Our trade is nowhere near as coercive and subordinating as military force. It's not even in the same universe. If anything, we need higher tariffs on the stuff coming in from places like China. Can you say bye-bye manufacturing jobs?

    This is how trade is done. I see them as "incentives"... but charity is on that list? That wouldn't be charity, but simply trade for goods or services. Charity is given freely and usually for humanitarian reasons. This country provides more charity to other countries than any other. Go ahead and fact check it.

    Man, you sure are argumentative with someone who usually agrees with you.
    Last edited by Micael; 11/06/2009 at 05:01 PM. Reason: diction
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #800  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    That line makes absolutely no sense, LOL. In other words, you can't explain why you made the comment about me and creationism. Good grief.
    You posted:
    Now, I'm not saying that all religions haven't had, in the distant past, people who took things to the same extreme as Muslims do today. But I don't think there are many (any?) Christian groups (there will always be an independent nut or two) running around today looking to kill someone because they didn't want to believe in Jesus.

    That statement is even a stretch for someone like you daThomas.
    You did a classic by interpreting my original statement with your own translation and hyperbole then characterizing it as an extreme view.
    Whether or not you intended that is irrelevant. I am forced to point it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    So....your point? It's okay to have your point of view but not other's point of view? That's quite typical of liberals. Heavy sigh....same ole BS.

    Again....as said above....your view is fine, but God forbid (oops, sorry, didn't mean to bring God into this) a religious view be heard. Just because a religious view is expressed does not mean it is being forced upon you. Wow, are you afraid that you will be changed if another view is expressed? Good grief. LOL
    Your LOLs do not hide the fact that you're avoiding the linked to subject as example of christianity imposing itself on others, and the many points made regarding my differentiation between expression and institutional religion.

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