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  1. #761  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Imperialism is not the opposite of isolationism, as you imply.
    I did not imply they were opposites. However, in the past when I have mentioned that other countries are far too dependent upon our military and other 'aid', I have been accused of being isolationist. AAMOF, you have been one of those who levied that charge. So, it's ironic that you should bring this up.
    And our foriegn policy does not equate to "effective imperialism". Per wikipedia:
    Imperialism, defined by the dictionary of human geography, is “the creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination.”
    It doesn't? So, our spending more than the rest of the world combined on our military and having bases throughout the world does not imply domination and subordination from some perspectives? If we decide we are going to go into Pakistan to hunt for Osama Bin Laden, who's going to stop us?
    I was with you through most of your post, until that last statement.
    That's OK. I'm not unfamiliar with going it alone.
    For decades, France, Germany, and many other european countries have used us for protection and leverage. We project power not only for our own protection and interests, but also because we're contractually compelled by treaties. I get a bit tired of the Imperialism argument. We do far more good through food, clothing, and medical donations, rescue and disaster assistance, and technology transfers, than any other country - possibly more than all other countries combined.
    That was my point in using the term 'effective imperialism'. We are not a traditionally imperialist nation like some European nations have been. We don't roll in with an army in most cases and subvert everything (although we do it on occasion). However, wielding 'protection', charity, and trade as weapons to get our will can be just as coercive and subordinating as military force.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #762  
    Quote Originally Posted by mclldavidson View Post
    Yeah I would easily say radical Islam is the biggest threat to the world today, it is a cancer that must be stopped
    I'll agree with this if you'll apply that to any and all religions bent on imposing themselves on everyone else.
  3. #763  
    You rabid nationalist!!!
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #764  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll agree with this if you'll apply that to any and all religions bent on imposing themselves on everyone else.
    Could you provide a list. I am not familiar with any other religion that specifically calls for the "killing of nonbelievers" in their manual.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #765  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll agree with this if you'll apply that to any and all religions bent on imposing themselves on everyone else.
    Can you name what religions in today's world are using force to impose themselves on others? Excepting Radical Islam of course.

    I'd also be interested in hearing what if any distinction you make between Religion imposing themselves on people and government doing so? Clearly, you do not find it acceptable for Religion to impose itself on anyone (and I agree). Do you believe that is also true of governments?

    Most religions by their nature have components of "spreading the word," and I have no objection to that, as long as they do not attempt to use force to foist that on me (or anyone else). In short--I can walk away from any Religion (at least in the USA) and no one has any right to harm me for doing so (although some cult-like religions do go after former members--illegally for the most part).

    Governments don't generally tolerate individuals who don't wish to go along with what they wish to impose on other, and we can't walk away from them--they won't let us (generally).

    So, shouldn't we be holding governments (that are supposed to serve us) to a higher standard, because we cannot choose to simply walk away? Should we refuse to allow government to force us to impose themselves on us?

    KAM
  6. #766  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll agree with this if you'll apply that to any and all religions bent on imposing themselves on everyone else.
    I agree, Islam is the one that is the biggest threat currently though. It is scary when you have lunatics willing to kill themsleves, men, women and children in the name of their religion and God
  7. #767  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll agree with this if you'll apply that to any and all religions bent on imposing themselves on everyone else.
    LOL....I'll take a Christian preaching to someone to try and save them any day to being beheaded by a Muslim because, well, because I wasn't a Muslim? Good grief.

    Now, I'm not saying that all religions haven't had, in the distant past, people who took things to the same extreme as Muslims do today. But I don't think there are many (any?) Christian groups (there will always be an independent nut or two) running around today looking to kill someone because they didn't want to believe in Jesus.

    That statement is even a stretch for someone like you daThomas.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  8. #768  
    The thing is it is not PC to give one religion more hell than another. What I really find bewildering, is the people to step up and defend, make excuses for Islam are the first people to attack Christianity.To top it off the liberal types who are the first to defend Islam have nothing in common with these radicals, and these radicals despise everything liberalism is about.
    This post is not directed towards anyone here, but in general and more specifically at some people who frequent another forum I post on
  9. #769  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    LOL....I'll take a Christian preaching to someone to try and save them any day to being beheaded by a Muslim because, well, because I wasn't a Muslim? Good grief.

    Now, I'm not saying that all religions haven't had, in the distant past, people who took things to the same extreme as Muslims do today. But I don't think there are many (any?) Christian groups (there will always be an independent nut or two) running around today looking to kill someone because they didn't want to believe in Jesus.

    That statement is even a stretch for someone like you daThomas.
    The statement you just made for me?

    Imposing your religion on me includes things like teaching creationism in schools in the guise of an equal theory to evolution.
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    #770  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I truly fail to see how the American people accepting an improvement in their health care will result in a wide open path to amnesty, particularly given your point that it will add to the health care costs.

    Its not that one will result in another. But it's irresponsible to deal with one without considering the other. Don't you think? This President is going to try to ram through amnesty just like he's ramming through health care. And considering amnesty doesn't have the same opposition from Republicans as his health care plans, it will probably be an easier push. So why not add a provision to the bill that would nip this in the bud?

    Remember my words, daThomas, once this health care reform package is signed amnesty will be on the agenda. And once that is passed, the argument will be that there will be no way to deny coverage to all of these new citizens without being unfair or racist. They are citizens and they are to be afforded all the rights of any other citizens, including subsidized health care.
  11. #771  
    Quote Originally Posted by mclldavidson View Post
    The thing is it is not PC to give one religion more hell than another. What I really find bewildering, is the people to step up and defend, make excuses for Islam are the first people to attack Christianity.To top it off the liberal types who are the first to defend Islam have nothing in common with these radicals, and these radicals despise everything liberalism is about.
    This post is not directed towards anyone here, but in general and more specifically at some people who frequent another forum I post on
    For the record I despise the Taliban and support their removal from any authority in Afghanistan.
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #772  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Imposing your religion on me includes things like teaching creationism in schools in the guise of an equal theory to evolution.
    Why? How is exposing someone to a theory imposing something on them? Could a Religious person say that the school is imposing their Evolution THEORY on them, just for talking about it?

    I forgot--tolerance is a pick and choose thing isn't it? Shucks.

    Its also interesting that you are (at least to some degree) relating talking about a non-scientific theory (when I grew up we studied various religions beliefs including islam) to radical islam? These are in the same basket of "imposing" in your view?

    I thought you didn't believe that schools indoctrinated kids. Remember--what did you call it? Dramatic?

    How about this. You get your leftist pals to stop preaching radical secularism in schools, and I'll get them to not preach creationism. I warn you though--you've got a much more extensive task.

    You get government to stop imposing their statist nonsense, and I'll get Religions to stop "imposing" their beliefs on you.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 11/06/2009 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Additional point.
  13. #773  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Its not that one will result in another. But it's irresponsible to deal with one without considering the other. Don't you think? This President is going to try to ram through amnesty just like he's ramming through health care. And considering amnesty doesn't have the same opposition from Republicans as his health care plans, it will probably be an easier push. So why not add a provision to the bill that would nip this in the bud?

    Remember my words, daThomas, once this health care reform package is signed amnesty will be on the agenda. And once that is passed, the argument will be that there will be no way to deny coverage to all of these new citizens without being unfair or racist. They are citizens and they are to be afforded all the rights of any other citizens, including subsidized health care.
    I for one will fight against Amnesty as hard as I have fought for health care reform.

    It's a labor issue for me and always has been. Will I ultimately pay $3/head of lettuce and pay more for a room in Vegas? Yes. It's bad enough I have to fight Bill G.'s repeated call for increasing the number of H-1B visas.

    Labor labor labor! So no I don't see the scary Amnesty monster around the next corner. When I'm wrong, I'll admit it and buy you a beer .
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #774  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why not? Personally, I think this issue is far too often overlooked. We spend more on 'defense' than the rest of the world combined according to all the numbers I've been able to find. How sustainable would their socialized medicine programs be if they didn't have the US throwing money and force around the globe, and had to focus on their own defense? Yes, I realize that isolationism is not something we want, but effective imperialism hasn't been working for us lately either.
    This is an outstanding point that is never mentioned by those touting the outstanding socialized medicine in other countries. How good would socialized medicine in Canada be if Canada had to rely solely on it's own forces for defense? How good would it be if they had Mexico on their southern border rather that the most heavily defended ally on earth?
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #775  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Its not that one will result in another. But it's irresponsible to deal with one without considering the other. Don't you think? This President is going to try to ram through amnesty just like he's ramming through health care. And considering amnesty doesn't have the same opposition from Republicans as his health care plans, it will probably be an easier push. So why not add a provision to the bill that would nip this in the bud?

    Remember my words, daThomas, once this health care reform package is signed amnesty will be on the agenda. And once that is passed, the argument will be that there will be no way to deny coverage to all of these new citizens without being unfair or racist. They are citizens and they are to be afforded all the rights of any other citizens, including subsidized health care.
    What? No way. Progressives NEVER use this step-by-step process to push, push, push for what they want. That simply is untrue. Clearly you are an outlandish, yahoo conspiracy theorist.

    No, no, NO! You just accept each thing Progressives push and never, ever try to put the pieces together, no matter how blatant their tactics might be.

    You are NOT groovy, Groovy.

    KAM
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #776  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Labor labor labor! So no I don't see the scary Amnesty monster around the next corner. When I'm wrong, I'll admit it and buy you a beer .
    What good is a beer going to do when we'll be on the hook for billions more in taxes?

    KAM
  17. #777  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Why? How is exposing someone to a theory imposing something on them? Could a Religious person say that the school is imposing their Evolution THEORY on them, just for talking about it?

    I forgot--tolerance is a pick and choose thing isn't it? Shucks.

    Its also interesting that you are (at least to some degree) relating talking about a non-scientific theory (when I grew up we studied various religions beliefs including islam) to radical islam? These are in the same basket of "imposing" in your view?

    I thought you didn't believe that schools indoctrinated kids. Remember--what did you call it? Dramatic?

    KAM
    Wow, kinda all over.

    Creationism is religion in the guise of a theory. I believe I said that. Let me check
    .
    .
    .
    yup, there it is. And yes, imposing a religion through threat of violence or infecting a school district with it is equal in my world.

    Now, no offense but anyone care to stay on thread topic since we have a big vote tomorrow?





  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #778  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    This is an outstanding point that is never mentioned by those touting the outstanding socialized medicine in other countries. How good would socialized medicine in Canada be if Canada had to rely solely on it's own forces for defense? How good would it be if they had Mexico on their southern border rather that the most heavily defended ally on earth?
    More directly, how much do they benefit from Medical research funded by the United States? How many beneficial things the world over have been funded by our CAPITALIST system, and the American taxpayer? Too many to count I would guess.

    I would like to also take this opportunity to note how much more pleasant conversations have been these last few weeks, compared to prior to that. Even people I disagree with on most every point have been generally pleasant to talk to. I just want to say that I appreciate that.

    KAM
  19. #779  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    What good is a beer going to do when we'll be on the hook for billions more in taxes?

    KAM
    Sigh. In that same post did I not state the following:
    "I for one will fight against Amnesty as hard as I have fought for health care reform."

    What do you want me to say? "Oh really, there's this potential legislation which may or may not significantly increase the price tag of health care reform, so by all means, lets scrap that."?
  20. groovy's Avatar
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    #780  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    What good is a beer going to do when we'll be on the hook for billions more in taxes?

    KAM
    Probably not much but by that point I'll take any free beer I can get.

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