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  1.    #581  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I certainly agree with your last sentence. This hasn't been passed because of politics. It's based solely on trying to make Obama fail.
    WRONG, It is about a BAD bill. Sure we need healthcare reform, but this bill has too much in it that will end up making things worse.

    Our world view is totally oppositional. The republicans have proven they do not care, that they are responding to lobbyists and special interests
    And you don't think the Democrats are also responding to their lobbyist and special interest? Get real, they BOTH have so much corruption going on I don't think they could come up with a bill that would actually HELP the people AND the country as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    davidra, the Republicans aren't in power, nor are their votes needed for anything to be passed. This is totally the Democrat's show. . You have it all, but you can't get anything done. Wow.
    Got a point here...but they know it is a bad bill and they don't want it as a noose around their necks.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #582  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Ed: Even though my response was to your prior post and not the intervening one, and even though I agree substantially with your more recent one, I still don't care about how this gets done or who's ox needs to be gored to get it done. There are people's lives depending on this, and frankly that's much more important to me than an increasing marginal tax rate or whether some ******bag gets re-elected.
    Sure. Again, I understand your position, but to me its ignoring the big picture for concern of the small. While someone's life may be saved because they can get healthcare, how many people's lives will be negatively impacted because our overall economy (including quality of healthcare and costs) are ruined?

    This sort of program might directly help save the life of a given person, but by doing so, you might endanger that of 1000, and create odds that 1% of them dies statistically, so you end up saving 1 and losing 10. Obviously these are chosen values for illustration, but that's what can happen when you get tunnel vision.

    Lastly, you think the Democrats are NOT motivated by getting elected? That's ALL they are motivated by. The Democrats are not champions for your cause--its incidental, and this is just their chosen hot-button that they can exploit.

    KAM
  3. #583  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Is this why you haven't responded to my posting to you? Because you want to blame the Republicans to bending to the lobbyists and special interests?

    davidra, the Republicans aren't in power, nor are their votes needed for anything to be passed. This is totally the Democrat's show. 24/7. You guys are amazingly disfunctional. You have it all, but you can't get anything done. Wow.
    No, this is the country's show. This is the chance for our country, and all the representatives we elected, to do something for 40 million or so people who at risk of losing their lives or their financial security unless something is done. And it should not be dependent on political party, or lobbyists, or re-election, or some reactionary fear of socialism, or even the fact that it will increase your taxes.

    But they aren't. The republicans are CHOOSING not to participate. Even when involved in the formative committee, you've got good ole Chuck Grassley, who refused to debunk death panels and said regardless of any bill that came out, he was going to oppose it...even if he voted for it initially.

    I am pretty political when dealing with issues other than health care. I just have always felt that health care is too important for politicians, and while both parties are proving me correct, the republican party wins the prize going away. At least some democrats, wrongly, are going against their leadership. The republicans are nothing but sheep, ignoring their consitutuents and the good of the country for their own personal wellbeing. They are obstructionists who don't care about the people that lack what should be a basic human right....the right to be healthy. And I really don't give a damn if the constitution doesn't use those words.
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #584  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    No, this is the country's show. This is the chance for our country, and all the representatives we elected, to do something for 40 million or so people who at risk of losing their lives or their financial security unless something is done. And it should not be dependent on political party, or lobbyists, or re-election, or some reactionary fear of socialism, or even the fact that it will increase your taxes.
    That's false. This is NOT the country's show. The Democrats have intentionally blocked others ideas from being considered. THEY are in power and THEY are responsible.

    The undeniable fact is that The democrats do not need one single Republican vote to pass whatever they want--not one. Conversely, the Republicans even if 100% unified cannot stop the Democrats if they wanted to. If you insist on looking at this along party lines, it is very clear who is responsible and who is failing to pursue real reform.

    You can keep trying to scapegoat the Republicans (who have no control over this), but you can't make it true. You cannot separate power from Responsibility, and Democrats control the power here across the board.

    The DEMOCRATS have made this about politics and about silencing those who disagree with them, an blocking alternatives from even being Considered.

    The Democrats have created a false choice--their unsustainable, system or nothing. That's a massive lie. REAL reform is possible, but Democrats are preventing it from even being considered. DEMOCRATS will be responsible for what happens. Republicans are spectators--and Democrats have made sure that is the case.

    Democrats are too sniveling to own what they are creating, because they cannot do anything without someone else to blame.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/28/2009 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Additional point
  5. #585  
    Yea. Give us government owned health care and cap/trade and we will be the show to the world - how a country can commit economic suicide within 24 hours.
  6. #586  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That's false. This is NOT the country's show. The Democrats have intentionally blocked others ideas from being considered. THEY are in power and THEY are responsible.

    The undeniable fact is that The democrats do not need one single Republican vote to pass whatever they want--not one. Conversely, the Republicans even if 100% unified cannot stop the Democrats if they wanted to. If you insist on looking at this along party lines, it is very clear who is responsible and who is failing to pursue real reform.

    You can keep trying to scapegoat the Republicans (who have no control over this), but you can't make it true. You cannot separate power from Responsibility, and Democrats control the power here across the board.

    The DEMOCRATS have made this about politics and about silencing those who disagree with them, an blocking alternatives from even being Considered.

    The Democrats have created a false choice--their unsustainable, system or nothing. That's a massive lie. REAL reform is possible, but Democrats are preventing it from even being considered. DEMOCRATS will be responsible for what happens. Republicans are spectators--and Democrats have made sure that is the case.

    Democrats are too sniveling to own what they are creating, because they cannot do anything without someone else to blame.

    KAM

    I've had enough of blaming the success of health care reform on political parties. I've done it, and I'm quitting because it's irrelevant to what I want. When you stop placing health care in a political basket, thinking only about what power the democrats have and how the republicans have been excluded, when you know that both of those statements are BS, and you start thinking about what is best for the country and not what is best for your political party (deny it all you want; at least have the cojones to admit who's crap you're eating), then I'll have some respect for your opinion. As of now, I don't. This is too important for gloating opportunists to be influencing anyone's life and health. When you understand that, your opinion may have some value. And unfortunately, you may never understand that since you have likely never been in the situation that I see every day. So you can take your abusive, insulting comments about democrats and roll with them. They unmask you as someone not truly interested in advancing the health status of our country, but rather someone interested in political opportunism and partisanship. Enjoy.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #587  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I've had enough of blaming the success of health care reform on political parties. I've done it, and I'm quitting because it's irrelevant to what I want. When you stop placing health care in a political basket, thinking only about what power the democrats have and how the republicans have been excluded, when you know that both of those statements are BS, and you start thinking about what is best for the country and not what is best for your political party (deny it all you want; at least have the cojones to admit who's crap you're eating), then I'll have some respect for your opinion. As of now, I don't. This is too important for gloating opportunists to be influencing anyone's life and health. When you understand that, your opinion may have some value. And unfortunately, you may never understand that since you have likely never been in the situation that I see every day. So you can take your abusive, insulting comments about democrats and roll with them. They unmask you as someone not truly interested in advancing the health status of our country, but rather someone interested in political opportunism and partisanship. Enjoy.
    No, you are wrong, and I'm disappointed you have taken this tone.

    You are really being unfair in your statements here. You are attacking me for pointing out the political realities that are in play. You refuse to acknowledge that the POLITICIANS (led by Democrats who happen to be in power) are making this a political issue.

    If you don't think Democrats are playing political games with this, you are very foolish indeed. You are ignoring all their actions, because you believe you are getting what you want in terms of healthcare. You are being dangerously naive.

    Are you so blinded by hate for Republicans that you cannot see the Shell-game that's being played here. You are DEMANDING fast action, and then supporting the plans of Politicians that Delay these "reforms" for FOUR YEARS! Why? POLITICAL PURPOSES.

    You are supporting the people WHO ARE NOT ACTING, when many of these Reforms can be enacted TODAY--with high levels of support from all sides.

    You have completely bought into the Democrat's lies and are going to end up doing much more harm than good. Their plan leaves millions of people uninsured and without healthcare.

    I don't know what it is--your own partisanship, or your sincere passion to see people get healthcare that's making you buy into this sham. That's exactly what you are doing however--you are ignorantly going along with a WHOLLY political action with a shiny little promise of healthcare reform, and you've admitted you are ignoring all the potential problems. Well, I'm not. I'm not gullible enough to believe these lying, cheating corrupt politicians have anyone's best interests at heart. I'm not falling for the same old promises that lead us deeper into ruin.

    You are likely to get what you think you want, because as I've stated--the power has always been in the Democrats hands and still is. Just remember who is responsible for the damage done by this Fake "reform" when millions more people are getting substandard healthcare and paying more for it. You can then ponder why you insisted on your tunnel vision and denial of reality. Or you can blame Republicans, which is probably more likely.

    You apparently just cannot comprehend that everything I've been talking about IS about real results, and that I oppose what these politicians are doing, BECAUSE it is harmful, and DOESN'T solve the problems in our healthcare system. Your single-minded denial is going to be something you regret.

    KAM
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #588  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    No, this is the country's show. This is the chance for our country, and all the representatives we elected, to do something for 40 million or so people who at risk of losing their lives or their financial security unless something is done. And it should not be dependent on political party, or lobbyists, or re-election, or some reactionary fear of socialism, or even the fact that it will increase your taxes.

    But they aren't. The republicans are CHOOSING not to participate. Even when involved in the formative committee, you've got good ole Chuck Grassley, who refused to debunk death panels and said regardless of any bill that came out, he was going to oppose it...even if he voted for it initially.

    I am pretty political when dealing with issues other than health care. I just have always felt that health care is too important for politicians, and while both parties are proving me correct, the republican party wins the prize going away. At least some democrats, wrongly, are going against their leadership. The republicans are nothing but sheep, ignoring their consitutuents and the good of the country for their own personal wellbeing. They are obstructionists who don't care about the people that lack what should be a basic human right....the right to be healthy. And I really don't give a damn if the constitution doesn't use those words.
    Just because something needs to be done, doesn't mean that the idiots in DC can't muck it up worse than it already is. Sometimes doing "nothing" is the best policy. Especially when you don't have the votes to move the solution in a different, and more positive direction.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #589  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Just because something needs to be done, doesn't mean that the idiots in DC can't muck it up worse than it already is. Sometimes doing "nothing" is the best policy. Especially when you don't have the votes to move the solution in a different, and more positive direction.
    You are correct.

    If these politicians were REALLY interested in reform, why not deal with the problems that can be agreed on RIGHT NOW. If we can save 500 billion in Medicare Fraud and waste, who would disagree with that? If it really is waste (and not some claimed savings meant to mask the costs of other things), then why waste time and money by playing these political games.

    Why not deal with the Pre-existing condition issue directly, by setting up a system that manages costs if and only if that Precondition comes into play--avoiding unnecessary cost increases due to something that may or may not happen.

    Why not INSTANTLY reduce the effective cost of Healthcare by making Every single dollar spent on it tax deductible?

    Why not transform Medicaid into Good quality Health insurance for ALL people not able to get health insurance. 300 Billion would cover 47 million quite well, and we know that the actual number of uninsured (not by choice) is a much lower number (as low as 12 million).

    Pass Medical Malpractice Reform, to get even more savings.

    Why not do this TODAY, and benefit families RIGHT NOW? Why orchestrate some scheme with goals unrelated to helping people that will come about in 2013? That is clearly a political move, and doing that is hurting people right now.

    Everyone should darn well remember why we aren't getting these more obvious reforms done today--its because politicians in power are preventing it from happening. The American Public is suffering because our politicians are playing games with our lives for their own gain.

    Here's another story on the fallacy of "reform" being proposed by our corrupt government.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ion_98918.html

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/29/2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Added Link
  10. #590  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Why not INSTANTLY reduce the effective cost of Healthcare by making Every single dollar spent on it tax deductible?
    That won't do anything for the people who REALLY need healthcare... think about what you are saying for a second.

    Pass Medical Malpractice Reform, to get even more savings.
    Are you reading about the different ideas being piloted right now? I don't really think you know the very thoughtful process happening right now.

    And have you read the reports on medical malpractice reform?


    Why not do this TODAY, and benefit families RIGHT NOW? Why orchestrate some scheme with goals unrelated to helping people that will come about in 2013? That is clearly a political move, and doing that is hurting people right now.
    Yes, rushing and implementing something that helps "now" might not be the best solution 3 years down the road...


    The dems and Republicans are playing politics right now... but obviously, they all have an agenda... republicans need to keep their base together and not steam on and support a popular president... that might not be good for next year.

    The dems are attempting to take advantage of their advantage and not give too much and lose people next year.

    At the end, I'd like everyone agrees something needs to be done... and that something is not nothing. Look at what nothing has gotten us....
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  11. #591  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Why not do this TODAY, and benefit families RIGHT NOW? Why orchestrate some scheme with goals unrelated to helping people that will come about in 2013? That is clearly a political move, and doing that is hurting people right now.

    Everyone should darn well remember why we aren't getting these more obvious reforms done today--its because politicians in power are preventing it from happening. The American Public is suffering because our politicians are playing games with our lives for their own gain.
    Actually you're quite right and Howard Dean said as much tonight. We should get this new health care option to as many as we can before the 2010 election to bring more Dems into Congress and I totally agree with him ... and you.

  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #592  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    That won't do anything for the people who REALLY need healthcare... think about what you are saying for a second.
    Think about what you are saying--we already spend 300 billion on the poor for healthcare, and if we stopped spending it in a wasteful manner, we could cover them all right now.

    I continue to be amazed that some of you want to keep trusting these deceitful politicians to suddenly stop wasting the BILLIONS of dollars we pay to them already. I would really love it if you Pro"reform" folks would honestly ask yourselves why you are agreeing to keep on trusting failures, when they've got more than enough resources to do what they keep on promising. Is enough EVER enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Yes, rushing and implementing something that helps "now" might not be the best solution 3 years down the road...
    That's comical considering the President and Democrats in Congress are the ones demanding this be done now--and had originally said it had to be done by August 2009, but aren't implementing it for 3 years. So, they are contradicting themselves.

    What I'm saying is why not do the simple things now and get benefits going now instead of creating an albatross.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The dems and Republicans are playing politics right now... but obviously, they all have an agenda... republicans need to keep their base together and not steam on and support a popular president... that might not be good for next year.

    The dems are attempting to take advantage of their advantage and not give too much and lose people next year.

    At the end, I'd like everyone agrees something needs to be done... and that something is not nothing. Look at what nothing has gotten us....
    Of course they are playing politics--they are politicians, which is one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with all this. REAL practical solutions that can improve things could easily be passed and implemented today. They aren't doing that--they are talking about how much they want to help everyone, but aren't doing what can be done.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/30/2009 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Additional Point
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #593  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Actually you're quite right and Howard Dean said as much tonight. We should get this new health care option to as many as we can before the 2010 election to bring more Dems into Congress and I totally agree with him ... and you.

    You are quite the optimist. Regardless of how it would turn out, at least it would have the benefit of being honest, and not cowering until after the next Presidential election which is exactly what is happening now.

    Democrats are banking on being able to SAY how beneficial this will be to get votes, without having to demonstrate it. Talking is really easy--just like they will talk about how effective the "stimulus" package has been, but that of course is another subject.

    Here's the thing...if it DID work out, and did save everyone money and provide better healthcare options, I'd say "great. I was wrong." Problem is, government is already wasting billions of dollars a year, and have not for all these years done a thing to fix that, but now I'm expected to believe that they suddenly can and will do that? Highly unlikely, which is why I oppose these practiced liars plans.

    KAM
  14.    #594  
    $24,000.00 per clunker...Calculated by taking the amount of money spent on the "Cash for Clunkers" program and spread it out over the people who bought cars that weren't buying a car anyway. (Source Edmunds.com)

    "If you earn under $250,000.00 you will not pay higher taxes" (lie told by President Obama) Cigarette taxes? Healthcare taxes proposed? Pelosi's value added tax?

    First "Stimulus Bill" from President Bush that we have no idea where or to whom the money went...and don't forget "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq.

    YOU TRUST THESE PEOPLE WITH YOUR HEALTHCARE?

    All of you making excuses to overhaul our healthcare system are more into destroying our Country's economy. You are more a fan of Socialism than Capitalism. You might not want to hear this from me, but guess what... I don't want to hear your excuses. They are short sighted. Blind followers of your political leaders.

    GOVERNMENT NEVER DOES ANYTHING FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY SAY IT IS GOING TO COST. UNDER THE NEW BILL THE CLOCK IS RUNNING ON MY CURRENT POLICY. I WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF MY HEALTHCARE. NOBODY IS TURNED AWAY FROM OUR EMERGENCY ROOMS AND I KNOW I AM PAYING FOR THAT NOW, BUT I DON'T NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO BE ANOTHER MIDDLE MAN HANDING MY MONEY OUT.

    YES I KNOW I AM SHOUTING!!!!

    I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR RESPONSES SAYING I'M WRONG OR ILL INFORMED...I DON'T TRUST THOSE OF YOU TOTING YOUR PARTY LINES!

    I DON'T HAVE UNFOUNDED "FEARS". MY OPINIONS COME FROM YEARS OF OBSERVATION. WITH MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN PROVIDING HEALTHCARE.

    Hopefully, we have enough politicians that can stand up against this 2000 page bill - JUNK IT - START OVER - Give us a short bill, in English, with no loopholes that FIXES our current problems NOW, not throw out our whole system in an EMERGENCY CRISIS that will not change for 3 years.
  15. #595  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    YOU TRUST THESE PEOPLE WITH YOUR HEALTHCARE?
    Yes. And more people agree than disagree, based on the October 21st CNN poll:

    do you trust more to handle major changes in the country's health care system - Barack
    Obama or the Republicans in Congress?
    50% Obama, 34% Republicans in Congress, 15% Both equally/Neither

    What do you think would be better for the country -- if Congress passed a bill to change the
    country's health care system along the lines of what Barack Obama has proposed, or if the current
    system were left in place with no changes?
    53% Pass a bill, 44% Leave current system

    Now thinking specifically about the health insurance plans available to most Americans, would you
    favor or oppose creating a public health insurance option administered by the federal government
    that would compete with plans offered by private health insurance companies?
    61% Favor, 38% Oppose
    It's time to face facts: high volume, and all caps on forums, do not a majority make.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  16.    #596  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Yes. And more people agree than disagree, based on the October 21st CNN poll:
    Really??? And the Fox News Poll says CNN is wrong

    According to an unbiased poll asking people:

    Do you think everyone in this country should make enough money to make a comfortable living? 80% said yes.

    You can make your polls say whatever you want.

    If I was asked if we need to reform health insurance I would also answer Yes. I do think we need reforms. But I don't want a government takeover of the healthcare system.

    The only people that do want it either have blind faith that the government is efficient with only the peoples well being in mind. (these are either naive or idiots) or people that have absolutely no problem with taking money from people who have it and giving it to those who don't (these are Marxist)
  17. #597  
    You may not want the government taking it over; however, if Nancy and Harry have their way, it will be there and of course, members of Congress do not have to participate in the government option monopoly. In addition, in 2013 we will no longer be able to purchase private insurance. In addition, there will be massive cuts to Medicare. However, just to make everyone happy, they are all ready in the bust mode.
  18. #598  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    In addition, in 2013 we will no longer be able to purchase private insurance. In addition, there will be massive cuts to Medicare. However, just to make everyone happy, they are all ready in the bust mode.
    Why don't you post your links to show why private insurance will go away...

    If we are taking care of people before they get into old age, maybe medicare could use some cuts. As long as the people are receiving the health care they need, does it matter which pool (or plan) it comes from? Face it, things are going to change... change happens...
    Last edited by theog; 10/31/2009 at 10:08 AM.
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  19. #599  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    What I'm saying is why not do the simple things now and get benefits going now instead of creating an albatross.
    Health care is huge... nothing attached to it is "simple." That is my issue... there is not a simple solution or a quick fix to help.
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  20.    #600  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Why don't you post your links to show why private insurance will go away...
    http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf Read it...it's in there.

    As long as the people are receiving the health care they need, does it matter which pool (or plan) it comes from? Face it, things are going to change... change happens...
    Mother's of kids in the project selling crack don't care where the money comes from. But they cry and ask why, when their baby is killed.

    Those that don't care where we get the coverage as long as we get the coverage are like these moms. It is time to start asking questions. If it is time to stop the craziness in Washington. Their spending is like a crack addiction. Start being responsible. Read the bill (if you can-after all your Representatives won't).

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