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  1. #561  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The means of healthcare (or national defense) doesn't come into play at all. It isn't about what medical or military science has come up with--it doesn't change the principle at all. This is very clear to me--The Constitution did not establish (excepting if there is a specific reference) a government that is empowered to provide individual needs to individual people. That's not parsing anything--that's supported by the text and also history.

    I'm very clear on your position, but I'm afraid I cannot agree with it. History tells me that this isn't going to work, and will create yet another massive economic liability on top of the other 3 major ones (and many others) that is set to bankrupt us and bring us to economic ruin. We should be trying to undo the crisis coming from those, not making it worse.

    If politicians succeed in destroying this economy, healthcare won't be on the top of our list of worries. The utter irresponsibility of this continued spending spree (many to blame) is staggering.

    KAM
    So would you say that you are clearly and philosophically opposed to:
    Medicare
    Social Security
    Food stamps
    the GI bill
    health care for veterans
    health care for congress
    public education

    I'm also assuming that you have no problem with state governments providing for these services (which is what most conservatives say, a position that strikes me as confusing at a minimum).

    That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion about each and every one of those. We agree to disagree. Providing for the welfare of the population has always been considered to be a good thing by most people, and I think most people think it's not unreasonable for the federal government to do just that....as it has been for 200 years. This is just another example that you disagree with.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #562  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So would you say that you are clearly and philosophically opposed to:
    I'll address each one.

    Medicare: Yes, but I think that extracting the National Government from this is not something we can do overnight, because people are too dependent. I'd suggest a generational change.

    Social Security: Yes, similar to the above, but I think we can eliminate it more quickly with a graduated withdrawal, replaced with personal (and highly tax beneficial)

    Food stamps: Yes, the National government should have no role in providing food to individuals.

    The GI bill: Not opposed, because compensating our military for their service is appropriate and in my view entirely constitutional.
    health care for veterans: As above.

    health care for congress: No reason we should be paying for that.

    public education: Yes, this is a State or local issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm also assuming that you have no problem with state governments providing for these services (which is what most conservatives say, a position that strikes me as confusing at a minimum).
    Yes, States are allowed more latitude (according to their constitutions) to do that if they wish, but aren't necessarily required to provide all of that.

    Why is it confusing? The US Constitution was designed specifically to be of a limited one, with other rights specifically denoted as being retained by the States or the People. We are a Federal Republic with the Central government having certain enumerated powers, not all imagined powers. This is a key concept to our entire Nation's government, and its not something I created, but the intended (and Stated) design.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion about each and every one of those. We agree to disagree. Providing for the welfare of the population has always been considered to be a good thing by most people, and I think most people think it's not unreasonable for the federal government to do just that....as it has been for 200 years. This is just another example that you disagree with.
    I'm satisfied with honest disagreement. However, I'd disagree with the claim that the Federal Government provided individual welfare in 1800 that is does today, or anything close. We haven't provided healthcare or food, or housing, or childcare, etc, etc. to individuals for 200 years.

    People that get something for "free" generally consider it a good thing--especially if they are dependent on it to live, and I don't blame them, but I'd rather minimize that rather than maximize it.

    The national government wasn't designed as a provider of welfare for individuals, else it would have been mandated and empowered to perform that function. There are consequences to these supposed "good" things that we've been conditioned to not even consider.

    I'd be happy to share my views on Federalism and why it is important for States to retain a proper degree of independence, and why centralization of power at the National level is something I'm against, but its pretty far off topic.

    KAM
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #563  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    health care for congress: No reason we should be paying for that.
    Actually, we're their employer, so I don't have a problem paying a portion of it, as us civilians have to pay copays and part of the premiums, depending on the plans we choose. But I think they should have to use the same insurance companies we do, and have the same plan choices that we do... and only those that are offered in the DC area.

    That will give them a feel for what we're going through.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. KAM1138
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    #564  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Actually, we're their employer, so I don't have a problem paying a portion of it, as us civilians have to pay copays and part of the premiums, depending on the plans we choose. But I think they should have to use the same insurance companies we do, and have the same plan choices that we do... and only those that are offered in the DC area.

    That will give them a feel for what we're going through.
    We are their employer (someone should tell them), but I don't favor medical insurance being attached to employment.

    If we are offering it to them as their employers, they darn well should follow the same restrictions we have to.

    That's really the problem though isn't it--our Representatives view themselves as our masters, not our servants. They live by their own rules, and make up (onerous) ones for the rest of us.

    KAM
  5. #565  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The top 10% is at approximately $113,000 - you can do a simple search to find that.
    It would be safe to assume that I did before questioning whether you belonged to the 'rest of us'.
    I do indeed fall under the top 10% at the moment.
    Interesting choice of words. So you haven't always?
    Of course, that's all beside the point.
    Is it?
    The question was whether the massive benefits to the upper 10% has been equally reflected in the other 90%. It clearly doesn't. The argument is not about me.
    No, it's not directly, but that question is misplaced. The graphic you posted would need to show some more numbers to be meaningful. For example, how many of those in a certain quintile in 1979 were still in the same quintile in 2000? How many of those in the 99th percentile in 1979 were still in the 99th percentile in 2000?
    I should, judging by your accusation though, be arguing strongly against the upper 10% paying more; however, I'm willing to pay my share if it benefits the larger community. As has been said before, some folks think "me", while others thing "we".
    And yet you rushed to thinking that I was accusing you of something. Obviously you do think about 'you' to some extent. The thrust of my questions were more whether you were actually thinking through the data behind the graphic. Did you already know beforehand that you were in the top 10%? I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #566  
    Lieberman Opposes Reid's Health Care Plan : NPR

    Illinois Congressman: Immigration Reform Cannot Wait

    I agree with Rep. Gutierrez. Let's settle the immigration reform question first. After all, we should know who is going to benefit from health care reform. Right?
    Last edited by groovy; 10/27/2009 at 10:37 PM.
  7. #567  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Lieberman Opposes Reid's Health Care Plan : NPR

    Illinois Congressman: Immigration Reform Cannot Wait

    I agree with Rep. Gutierrez. Let's settle the immigration reform question first. After all, we should know who is going to benefit from health care reform. Right?
    Wait, wait, wait. Anything to delay. Obstructionist manure.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #568  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Wait, wait, wait. Anything to delay. Obstructionist manure.
    That's an interesting stance considering that the Democrats are delaying this program starting until 2013--after the next Presidential Election. It seems to me as if they are the ones delaying what you have stated is important--people getting care.

    Further, Democrats are to blame for any delay, because Republicans have ZERO control over this process.

    To be an obstructionist one must have power to obstruct, and certainly no one here has that power, nor does the Republican Minority.

    The only thing "Obstructing" this process is the desire to use this issue to push massive government programs instead of dealing with actual reform that can be accomplished today--with high levels of agreement--like cutting medicare/medicaid waste (to the tune of 500 billion so they claim).

    Democrats worrying about their political futures are 'obstructing' things, because they are aware that they are pushing something on their voters they do not want. The Democrats who have COMPLETE control over this process are dancing around trying to play CYA and wondering how to blame Republicans. Political cowardice at its finest.

    Democrats attempting to forward their Statist agenda is what's standing in the way of actual health care reform. Politics is driving this, not a desire to help anyone, and the American people are waking up to that fact I think.

    You've admitted that you aren't concerned about costs or the Constitution or anything except getting people health care, but the Democrats in Congress and President don't share your passion for the needy--they are following political agendas first and foremost--healthcare is just the latest promise they won't keep. The needy are just a mass for them to manipulate, because if they really cared about people in need, they would maximize the benefit as soon as possible instead of foisting another dependency program on the country.

    Naturally, all that is my opinion.

    KAM
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #569  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Wait, wait, wait. Anything to delay. Obstructionist manure.
    So? The Democrats own the Executive Branch, the House, and the Senate. The Republican's could set themselves on fire, and still not be able to stand in your way.

    Who are the "real" obstructionists, really? Think hard before answering.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #570  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That's an interesting stance considering that the Democrats are delaying this program starting until 2013--after the next Presidential Election. It seems to me as if they are the ones delaying what you have stated is important--people getting care.

    Further, Democrats are to blame for any delay, because Republicans have ZERO control over this process.

    To be an obstructionist one must have power to obstruct, and certainly no one here has that power, nor does the Republican Minority.

    The only thing "Obstructing" this process is the desire to use this issue to push massive government programs instead of dealing with actual reform that can be accomplished today--with high levels of agreement--like cutting medicare/medicaid waste (to the tune of 500 billion so they claim).

    Democrats worrying about their political futures are 'obstructing' things, because they are aware that they are pushing something on their voters they do not want. The Democrats who have COMPLETE control over this process are dancing around trying to play CYA and wondering how to blame Republicans. Political cowardice at its finest.

    Democrats attempting to forward their Statist agenda is what's standing in the way of actual health care reform. Politics is driving this, not a desire to help anyone, and the American people are waking up to that fact I think.

    You've admitted that you aren't concerned about costs or the Constitution or anything except getting people health care, but the Democrats in Congress and President don't share your passion for the needy--they are following political agendas first and foremost--healthcare is just the latest promise they won't keep. The needy are just a mass for them to manipulate, because if they really cared about people in need, they would maximize the benefit as soon as possible instead of foisting another dependency program on the country.

    Naturally, all that is my opinion.

    KAM
    With not one single republican willing to support a public option, you really don't see any obstructing on their part? With no exceptions, there is not one free-thinking republican who will step up and support what you will admit is wanted by the majority of the American people? Are you just absolutely blind to the fact that lockstepping republicans is an obstructionist policy? Yes, there are some independents and democrats who have concerns. But how dare you say the republicans have no control over the situation? That is just plain wrong. Just because the republican legislators are not allowed to think for themselves hardly means they are helping the effort.

    You have NO evidence whatsover that any of the proposed plans would make a "massive government plan". There is likewise no evidence whatsoever that controlling costs and dealing with fraud would not be an essential part of any plan. These are republican talking points and the budget office says they are lies.

    And you are wrong about what the voters want. They want reform. They want a public option. And the republicans, not the democrats, are denying them that. They are indeed waking up....that's why the support for a public option has gone up, not down.


    Support increases for public option


    Public support for a public option in health care appears to be growing, according to a new poll.

    The NBC/Wall Street Journal survey found that 48 percent support a government-run plan to compete with private insurers and 42 percent oppose it -- the strongest support ever in the survey. Last month, opinion was basically divided with 46 percent in favor and 48 percent against.
    Last edited by davidra; 10/28/2009 at 10:20 AM.
  11. #571  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...Who are the "real" obstructionists, really? Think hard before answering.
    The lobbyist from the health insurance companies.
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    #572  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    The lobbyist from the health insurance companies.
    It takes two to tango
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #573  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    The lobbyist from the health insurance companies.
    Nice retort, I suppose, but I was hoping for a real answer from Davidra.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #574  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    It takes two to tango
    yeah, I don't think he fully thought out that response....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #575  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    With not one single republican willing to support a public option, you really don't see any obstructing on their part? With no exceptions, there is not one free-thinking republican who will step up and support what you will admit is wanted by the majority of the American people? Are you just absolutely blind to the fact that lockstepping republicans is an obstructionist policy? Yes, there are some independents and democrats who have concerns. But how dare you say the republicans have no control over the situation? That is just plain wrong. Just because the republican legislators are not allowed to think for themselves hardly means they are helping the effort.
    Two things: First, what I'm saying is that Republican support is not needed for Democrats to pass this bill and have it signed into law. Democrats have complete control over the process without the need for one single Republican vote. That's a fact.

    Republicans OPPOSE this, they do not have the power to OBSTRUCT it. The Republicans do not have control over this situation--the Democrats have designed it that way intentionally. They've locked them out of the Process in the House almost completely and to a lesser degree in the Senate. Of course, this is why we hear this constant whining from Democrats about the horrible Republicans--because they are desperate to not own this effort, because it is unpopular. They are shaking in their boots and want desperately to say it is "bipartisan" which means they can do what they always do--blame republicans for everything. Its right out of the Democrat Playbook.

    I should note for those reading--I'm not a Republican, and I've been fed up with their failures to adhere to principles, but the Democrats (politicians I mean)...well, they are the most unethical collection of cowards I've ever witnessed (there are some exceptions naturally). They gain power almost entirely by whining and crying about the other guy, painting everything as failure regardless of how it harms the country, while blaming everyone else, while they do nothing to help. President Obama spent the majority of his partial term as a Senator whining about President Bush and smearing him, instead of offering solutions and doing his job as a Senator. Democrats act as helpless little victims, despite holding Majorities in Congress and watching as our economy burns to the Ground (note when the economy turned south).

    Your accusations about Republicans being in "lockstep" and thinking for themselves is a bit humorous given the Arm-twisting, cabal-like management of the House by Speaker Pelosi. Oh, those Democrats--truly independent thinkers. This claim becomes ridiculous, when you consider that the Democrat Strategy has been continually to demagogue the Bush Administration and obstruct things with their MAJORITY since 2006. I guess the practice of opposing/obstructing is ok, when your side does it? Of course, one should question how that Democrat plan of action--characterizing (everything as failure, talking down our economy, war on terror, etc) impacted the massive economic decline that occurred when they retook Congress. That's another subject however.
    Additional Note: I'm not meaning to imply that the Economy imploded because the Democrats took Congress. I'm merely contrasting that with the idiotic lie that somehow President Bush was responsible for it). Success at perpetuating this lie is a major reason we have President Obama today. However, if government is to blame any objective person would note that there was a Democrat Congress, and a Republican President, NOT Republican control.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You have NO evidence whatsover that any of the proposed plans would make a "massive government plan". There is likewise no evidence whatsoever that controlling costs and dealing with fraud would not be an essential part of any plan. These are republican talking points and the budget office says they are lies.
    No evidence? A plan that has a low point of 900 Billion dollars isn't evidence of a "massive government plan?" It would be interesting to hear how you'd characterize a planned nationalization (this is stated to be a step towards a single payer system, which President Obama has endorsed in the past) of about 1/6th of the Entire US Economy.

    I didn't say that controlling costs wouldn't be part of this--If you read what I said, I stated that these reforms (in regards to fraud, and waste) could be accomplished today. The Democrats (who again are in complete control of this process) could have that done--today and in effect, but they have instead chosen to hold the needy hostage to try and push their Statist Agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And you are wrong about what the voters want. They want reform. They want a public option. And the republicans, not the democrats, are denying them that. They are indeed waking up....that's why the support for a public option has gone up, not down.
    I already posted an article on this supposed support for the Public option, and the misleading nature of the reports of its supposed "support". It becomes more laughable considering that a number of polls show a declining, and that overall support for healthcare reform (with or without a Public option) is below 50%.

    The following is an example: Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™

    Now how exactly does a majority of the nation support the 'Public option' when a majority oppose the plans in general? You might choose to favor the poll that supports your view, but I suggest that the Democrats know the real story--that public opinion is not behind this, and being the political animals they are, they are hesitating, because they KNOW it is not supported by the majority of citizens.

    According to this poll a majority (53%) think that their healthcare quality will get worse and 57% think that their costs will increase.

    Here are some further excerpts from that article:
    Polling on the health care topic by many firms has created some confusion. In particular, polls on the “public option” show a wide variety of results. A recent poll in The Washington Post found that 57% support a government-run health insurance company to compete with private insurers, but our polling shows that support is very soft. In fact, people are strongly opposed to a public option if they think it could lead employers to drop the existing coverage they provide employees. The fact that results are so subject to change based upon minor differences in question wording suggests that voters do not have firm opinions on the public option.

    Virtually all polling shows a plurality or majority opposed to the current plan in Congress. The poll in The Washington Post found just 45% for the congressional plan among all adults. Additionally, support for the current plan has remained stable suggesting that public opinion is firmly established at this time.

    Other polling released last week showed that 49% would rather see no health care legislation passed this year than see the current bill become law. Two-thirds (66%) say an increase in competition is more likely than increased government regulation to reduce the cost of health care. That’s one reason there is strong support for removing the exemption from anti-trust laws currently enjoyed by insurance companies.


    The bolded sections emphasize the points I'm making here. Are you going to accuse this of being "Republican talking points" as well?

    So, no, the American people aren't strongly behind this "reform" effort, let alone a Government option. This is shown when you look at the polling data a bit more deeply and it is verified by the knee-shaking terror expressed by Democrats who are well aware they are stuck between their Statist Leadership and their voters who aren't in favor of yet another massive spending program.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/28/2009 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Additional Point, 2
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #576  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So? The Democrats own the Executive Branch, the House, and the Senate. The Republican's could set themselves on fire, and still not be able to stand in your way.

    Who are the "real" obstructionists, really? Think hard before answering.
    This tells us a lot about the Way Democrats do business. They get elected based on a never-ending doom-and-gloom campaign (without regard to who it harms), and claim they will "change" things and be "bipartisan." What has actually occurred? The exact opposite. Democrats, led by Pelosi (but winked at by President Obama) have excluded Republicans from the Process and not allowed their proposals to be considered even (while lying that they have no plans, and are the party of "no"). In short--"bipartisanship" means--you agree with us. Its a disgusting bit of hypocrisy and deceit.

    President Obama instead of being involved and taking ownership of everything has maintained his distance other than pretending he's still on the campaign trail, where his orchestrated rallies create a false sense of "support" despite his approval and support for his policies plummets. He leaves the dirty work to his allies (Pelosi and Reid) to push their agenda, while crying that Republicans won't work with them.

    Let's be very clear and dispel the lies about this. Republicans were given the choice to agree with Democrats, and take all the liabilities, have no real input, and get none of the Credit. Wow, bipartisanship indeed.

    Why should Republicans support Statist expansion of Government at a time when we are reeling from economic woes made worse by a massive Spike in spending by the Democrats (who just months ago were talking about fiscal responsibility).

    Anyone who is pretending that the Democrats are not in complete control of this is lying to themselves. There has been no attempt at bipartisanship other than to set up another round of the inevitable "its all republican's fault" game that they are so expert at exploiting.

    Leftists can claim that this is Republican's fault, but ANY reasonable assessment of reality will reveal that this isn't true. DEMOCRATS have chosen this path, and their own party members are the ones holding things up, because they fear for their political lives.

    Now, ask yourself--would a politician who had public support hesitate to do something that is promised to be such a good thing? Of course they would. Its not as if they have principles they adhere to. This "reform" hasn't happened for one reason--Political cowardice on the part of DEMOCRATS who are smart enough to know that they will be hung out to dry by their leadership.

    Demanding Republican cooperation on something they are shut out of and then crying that they won't be the scapegoats for the wildly dangerous liabilities of these radical and economically non-viable, unsustainable schemes is truly laughable.

    Democrats have all the power, and are terrified to be responsible for their own actions, and so they do what they do best--blame Republicans. If they cared about helping the needy, they'd concentrate on eliminating fraud TODAY, and better using the Massive amount of money we spend on Government healthcare Already. They'd be looking for practical solutions, not massive government control. They'd work WITH Republicans on common ground areas (which there are a good number).

    But they aren't doing that are they? No, they are instead engaging in an expansive campaign of misdirection and deceit, attempting to fool people into thinking there is really only one possibility--Government control. It becomes very easy to understand how disgusting these people really are, and how cynical and totally motivated by politics they are, when you look at what they are actually doing, compared to what they claim.

    Reform is not the goal--its a smokescreen. Expansion of Government is the goal--its always the goal. The first thing they do when they get back the Presidency and congress--go on a massive spending spree they say is a stimulus, but which hasn't produced squat. They happily pass their pork-laden budget right on top of that, all while violating their promise to be "Transparent." You see--its just a bunch of words to them--it means nothing, and they think we are stupid enough to forget the lies they get elected on. Pelosi promises the most ethical Congress ever, yet we've got Tax cheats in charge of writing tax legislation, and on the Executive side we've got a Tax cheat as Secretary of The Treasury.

    How many times must we be fooled by promises of great things, and suffer under the massive economic burden of their vote-buying, dependence creating machine?

    I'm for ACTUAL reform, and I'm not going to settle for this manipulation by politicians, just because they manipulate the media to forward their propaganda. The Citizens have started to speak out, and they are scared. THAT's why they haven't ram-rodded this through yet--politics plain and simple.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/28/2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Additional point
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #577  
    Hello Everyone,

    I should note--I expect that Democrat Arm twisting will win out over fear of constituent anger BTW--at least in the House. I'm quite sure that the "Moderate" Blue Dogs can be blackmailed in sufficient number (by threatening their campaign funding) to force them to support pretty much anything Pelosi wants.

    The Senate...not quite the same, it will probably require some sort of promise of compensation (political) from the President himself to the few Democrats who aren't on-board. Some of the particularly cowardly ones will vote to end debate(60 vote threshold), but then not vote for it (51 vote threshold) and then say "I didn't vote for it." All kinds of political games they can play to essentially lie to their Voters.

    In short--I think voters views give them pause, but most of them buckle to their more direct political masters (their leadership and activist noise-makers). I'm quite sure they are just looking for a way to weasel their way out of this mess their Leftists leaders have created for them.

    One other note--Reid. He's got some game going here, because he's in trouble at home, but APPEARING to support the Public Option. I think he's searching for an out as well, because as a leader, he's got vulnerability from both sides. I think he's probably be quite happy to say "Well, sorry, I tried hard for that public option, but just couldn't get the votes--see it is THEIR fault, not mine."

    To Return to the Topic a bit more directly. Want to Fix Healthcare? Here's a good starting point--don't depend on cowardly politicians who don't give a darn about Reform or "Fixing" anything.
    Demand they stop HARMING our healthcare system with their bloated, corrupt, wasteful and fraudulent programs that are breaking the back of the economy and maintaining the unsustainable Status Quo (which is an indirect payer system).
    Demand that they return this to the people who have a stake in it--the Doctors and Patients (specifically their direct interaction).
    Demand that they reverse the stupid policies that enabled or created the problems we have today.
    Demand that they STOP meddling in the Free market, and stop using our tax money to buy votes and CREATE dependency (different from helping those who are on hard times).
    Demand that they stop standing in the way of Patient Choice, and give the Taxpayers the Tax Breaks they deserve by making ALL medical care costs tax deductible, instead of taking and wasting our tax dollars on fraud and waste.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 10/28/2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Topical Addition
  18. #578  
    I certainly agree with your last sentence. This hasn't been passed because of politics. It's based solely on trying to make Obama fail. At least one legislator is honest about it. Frankly, you are so far away from how I see things that I just don't think it's worth discussing anymore. It is the lobbyists from the drug companies and insurance companies that are driving the republican opposition. Admittedly, the democrats playing politics is not much better. But allow me to say again: I don't care. I don't care about politics, I actually don't care how much it costs because we can find the money. I don't believe that this a conspiracy to have a massive governmental takeover of the heatlh care system. Why on earth would I favor that as an individual? I think that most people who are involved in providing care for people are continually frustrated by the fact that the patients they are supposed to be providing care for cannot get what is needed to keep them well. And yes, you can ask me to work for nothing if you want. I do, two nights a week, seeing lots of patients who can't afford to be seen in other places. But when they need xrays, or lab tests, or drugs, that's not available to them.

    Quite simply, I am talking about people's lives here. My experience with the health care system, for many many years, tells me that we have the ability to do this, and I think to ignore the millions of working people who are uninsured does not provide a substantial argument for us to be the greatest country in the world, which I think we are. I do think that civilizations and countries should be judged by how they care for those that have the least. May make me a socialist to some, but seems to be aligned with most religious teachings around the world.

    Our world view is totally oppositional. The republicans have proven they do not care, that they are responding to lobbyists and special interests and not the interests of the people that need them the most. Simple to me, and not really worth pursuing at this point. What will be will be.

    Ed: Even though my response was to your prior post and not the intervening one, and even though I agree substantially with your more recent one, I still don't care about how this gets done or who's ox needs to be gored to get it done. There are people's lives depending on this, and frankly that's much more important to me than an increasing marginal tax rate or whether some ******bag gets re-elected.
    Last edited by davidra; 10/28/2009 at 01:43 PM.
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    #579  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Our world view is totally oppositional. The republicans have proven they do not care, that they are responding to lobbyists and special interests and not the interests of the people that need them the most.
    Is this why you haven't responded to my posting to you? Because you want to blame the Republicans to bending to the lobbyists and special interests?

    davidra, the Republicans aren't in power, nor are their votes needed for anything to be passed. This is totally the Democrat's show. 24/7. You guys are amazingly disfunctional. You have it all, but you can't get anything done. Wow.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #580  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I certainly agree with your last sentence. This hasn't been passed because of politics. It's based solely on trying to make Obama fail. At least one legislator is honest about it. Frankly, you are so far away from how I see things that I just don't think it's worth discussing anymore. It is the lobbyists from the drug companies and insurance companies that are driving the republican opposition. Admittedly, the democrats playing politics is not much better. But allow me to say again: I don't care. I don't care about politics, I actually don't care how much it costs because we can find the money. I don't believe that this a conspiracy to have a massive governmental takeover of the heatlh care system. Why on earth would I favor that as an individual? I think that most people who are involved in providing care for people are continually frustrated by the fact that the patients they are supposed to be providing care for cannot get what is needed to keep them well. And yes, you can ask me to work for nothing if you want. I do, two nights a week, seeing lots of patients who can't afford to be seen in other places. But when they need xrays, or lab tests, or drugs, that's not available to them.
    I hope you understand that I believe you. You've convinced me of your sincerity, but I still disagree with you, and think you are highly motivated by a bias against Republicans that isn't realistic, and one towards democrats that is highly favorable and ignores the dirty reality about ALL politicians. I'm sure you would say the same of me, but despite my tendency to note the Democrats hypocrisy, it is really a response to what I hear here. I've got little faith in any of these politicians. You seem to have great faith in some of them, while total lack in others, and I find that to be a strange point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Quite simply, I am talking about people's lives here. My experience with the health care system, for many many years, tells me that we have the ability to do this, and I think to ignore the millions of working people who are uninsured does not provide a substantial argument for us to be the greatest country in the world, which I think we are. I do think that civilizations and countries should be judged by how they care for those that have the least. May make me a socialist to some, but seems to be aligned with most religious teachings around the world.
    I understand your position. I think that trusting politicians like you do is not a wise move, and I think that your focus on people's lives is leading you to ignore the very real issues that will decide the fate of this.

    One thing I'm not sure you understand--I oppose this plan(s). I do not oppose actual reform (which I think this has only a bit of). I don't trust these corrupt, slimey politicians who have proven (to me) their true nature, and it isn't one of ethical, honest and true reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Our world view is totally oppositional. The republicans have proven they do not care, that they are responding to lobbyists and special interests and not the interests of the people that need them the most. Simple to me, and not really worth pursuing at this point. What will be will be.
    You think the Republicans have proven they do not care...fine, that may be true. The Democrats have proven they are liars, and they inevitably work to expand their power and that of the State to the detriment of the individual citizen, any "benefit" that comes out is just a smokescreen.

    You are fooling yourself if you think that Democrats aren't totally in bed with special interests and lobbyists and activists who forward very questionable things. Republicans are too. The difference I see is that you ignore the horrible nature of the Democrats (while eagerly noting that of the Republicans) because they SAY they will support what you want, but I do not trust them. Trusting them has been clearly harmful as I see it.

    All the programs that supposedly do good...and maybe they do when looked at in small scale, but more globally they do a lot of harm--which perpetuates the NEED for more small scale "help."

    I simply don't think we can afford to focus on washing the dishes in a house that's burning down around us, and that's what these Statists propose. There is only so much this Nation and our economy can take and saying "I don't care" is admitting that you are willing to support doing harm (of untold measure) in order to do some good.

    I (again) appreciate being able to talk all this out, despite clearly not agreeing, in a respectful fashion.

    KAM

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