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  1. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #441  
    Quote Originally Posted by philpalm View Post
    First point: "free dental care"- under California penal system prisoners get basic dental care. If their tooth aches they will put an immate on the emergency list and give a prisoner a choice of tooth extraction. Other Dental care gets put on a waiting list. Not an ideal system but the cheapest efficient manner of doing dental care.

    snip
    Well, heck...it's ALL free in prison! And, prison is open to all...

    Naaahhh...couldn't have meant that...



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  2. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #442  
    Quote Originally Posted by philpalm View Post

    I'll tell you what if we cut tax dollars for welfare programs can we give the corporations less of a tax break?
    And we can all wave "bye bye" as the jobs are outsourced to where the cost of business is lower...



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  3. #443  
    I still have one question that no one has answered, in all these posts.

    What is the difference between having your hospital stay/illness, paid for by a private insurance company (monthly prems) or a govt paid (taxes) health care plan?
  4. #444  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I still have one question that no one has answered, in all these posts.

    What is the difference between having your hospital stay/illness, paid for by a private insurance company (monthly prems) or a govt paid (taxes) health care plan?
    One is profit driven, the other isn't.
  5. #445  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I still have one question that no one has answered, in all these posts.

    What is the difference between having your hospital stay/illness, paid for by a private insurance company (monthly prems) or a govt paid (taxes) health care plan?
    Profit isn't necessarily a bad thing....but one costs more than another. The overhead for private insurers is somewhere between 20 and 30% by most estimates. For Medicare it is close (note I said close because it is complex to calculate exactly because some other federal services overlap) to 9%. That is between 10 and 20% of every health care dollar that is excessively going to support the insurance industry and is not providing anything directly to the patient. Combine that with the fact that insurance companies do have a vested interest in not paying for things they should (try reading anything about Wendell Potter), I see no good reason why we should subsidize a wasteful way to provide care.
  6. #446  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    One is profit driven, the other isn't.
    if that is true, and I am sure you are right, then really what the heck diff does it make whether you have the govt do it or an insurance company
  7. #447  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Profit isn't necessarily a bad thing....but one costs more than another. The overhead for private insurers is somewhere between 20 and 30% by most estimates. For Medicare it is close (note I said close because it is complex to calculate exactly because some other federal services overlap) to 9%. That is between 10 and 20% of every health care dollar that is excessively going to support the insurance industry and is not providing anything directly to the patient. Combine that with the fact that insurance companies do have a vested interest in not paying for things they should (try reading anything about Wendell Potter), I see no good reason why we should subsidize a wasteful way to provide care.
    ok, then by that break down, you would get twice to three times the care provided, for the same cost as you are presently paying for with an insurance company. Saying that, and the fact many of you are big on the whole we are capitalist society, then does it not make sense to go with what will provide you with a far bigger bang for your buck? I would suggest, based on the canadian model, that many of these private insurers would find work in the new health care system. If as it has been repeatedly said, that the profit margins for the insurance companies is so low, as to all most bankrupting them, would it not make sense to them (insurance companies) to go that route. Save themselves money, cut costs, etc etc etc.. Isnt that the capitalist way?

    One more note, why is it that the insurance companies have such enormous overhead? Are they paying 1000 bucks for an ashtray, like your navy was, or 200 bucks for a hammer, or 10,000 for a toilet seat. Perhaps the real winners in your present system are the actual health care providers, perhaps these health care companies are the ones that have been gouging the american public for so long, and they are the ones that will loose out if it goes to universal health care. Now if that is true, I would so ever humbly suggest that these companies have a monopoly. I do believe that sort of thing is frowned upon even down there in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...
    Last edited by xForsaken; 10/02/2009 at 05:58 AM.
  8. #448  
    Quote Originally Posted by noaxis2 View Post
    And we can all wave "bye bye" as the jobs are outsourced to where the cost of business is lower...
    i would suggest that many of your jobs are already being outsourced, even though the corps are paying crap wages and no benefits to begin with.. but that was something even the conservatives addressed a few years back down there.. i think it was decided that having unemployed americans was the way to go.. so they did nothing to stop or even help the corps that went off shore..
    nice lil catch 22 that is,, corps lowered costs by going off shore, then shipped the product back to the states, kept the same price point, even though they were paying pennies per hour versus 6-7 bucks per hour, and could not figure out why the consumer stopped buying their product...

    These same corps, also had the whole buy american thing back fire, as soon as it was noted that they off shored all manufacturing wow.. sales fell even more.. lol gotta love it.. but that is the capitalist way isnt it?
  9. #449  
    Quote Originally Posted by noaxis2 View Post
    And we can all wave "bye bye" as the jobs are outsourced to where the cost of business is lower...
    What? You mean big corporations are only interested in profits for themselves and aren't worried about whether or not Americans are employed or have health insurance? You mean they feel no obligation to the country? You mean they are only worried about themselves? They must be conservatives. And this is who you want controlling your health care. Nice call.
  10. #450  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    What? You mean big corporations are only interested in profits for themselves and aren't worried about whether or not Americans are employed or have health insurance? You mean they feel no obligation to the country? You mean they are only worried about themselves? They must be conservatives. And this is who you want controlling your health care. Nice call.
    I would suggest your bang on the mark there, remember, it is a capitalist society. We (they) do not want govt interference, allow us to rape and pillage our way through America and the rest of the world. If a country tries to put up road blocks, well heck we will just send in the marines. They make money that way too.
    As to the catch 22 post of mine, here is an example, several companies had setup shop here in my home province. Due to our rules up here in the great white north, one of which is, if you want tax breaks, want our resources, etc etc,, you have to supply jobs. You have to setup shop. Well several of these companies, which were owned completely by south of the border interests, and only shipped the product south, found themselves out in the cold in your latest Buy American scheme. One went so far as to try to move south, and promptly lost the resource base an tax breaks they had enjoyed. But hey, up here we are damn near communist, we enjoy universal heath care, we enjoy a higher standard of living, cleaner air, cleaner water, etc etc etc.. let me restate what is obvious to me but perhaps not you, Universal health care is enjoyed by many countries around the world, it is not big bad govt controlling your ultimate demise. Everyone pays, everyone gets health care. The local health boards, not govt controlled ones, setup and distribute the funds that come down from above. Yes the hospitals have budgets, yes they do have to cut costs. No my premier (your governor), nor my prime minister (your president) have a damn thing to say about what sort of care i get. Nor does any other govt body. Remember Jimmy, there is no Santa Claus.
  11. #451  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    swing and a miss man

    no i realized you were being sarcastical on the internets when you poo poo'd the lib (short for library)

    what i was asking was, how do you know what i think of your opinion?

    I wasn't asking what opinion you have, just what you think my judgment of that opinion would be.

    anyway, sounds like a kerfuffle for the Internets and all amounts to nothing.

    goodnight everybody.
    Well, windzilla. Since that comment was directed to 1thing, and not you, I guess I have no idea how you take them. But thanks for jumping in there. If you don't want to feel left out, maybe we can discuss our opinions, and then I can let you know just what I think your judgement of my opinion would be. Does that sound good?
  12. #452  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Well, windzilla. Since that comment was directed to 1thing, and not you, I guess I have no idea how you take them. But thanks for jumping in there. If you don't want to feel left out, maybe we can discuss our opinions, and then I can let you know just what I think your judgement of my opinion would be. Does that sound good?
    nah, not really my thing.

    I think what happened is you replied to my comment on pg 25 and I took it all as a response to me.

    crazy internet.

    cheers
  13. #453  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    nah, not really my thing.

    I think what happened is you replied to my comment on pg 25 and I took it all as a response to me.

    crazy internet.

    cheers
    Peace.
  14.    #454  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I still have one question that no one has answered, in all these posts.

    What is the difference between having your hospital stay/illness, paid for by a private insurance company (monthly prems) or a govt paid (taxes) health care plan?
    One I take the responsibility of providing for myself, the other I am a slave to my governments choice.
  15.    #455  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ....but one costs more than another. The overhead for private insurers is somewhere between 20 and 30% by most estimates. For Medicare it is close (note I said close because it is complex to calculate exactly because some other federal services overlap) to 9%. That is between 10 and 20% of every health care dollar that is excessively going to support the insurance industry
    This is an incorrect assumption. One example: The cost for insurance companies includes the cost of fighting claims fraud. Medicare does not include these cost. Fraud is so big in Medicare that Obama has stated that His healthcare program can be financed with the elimination of the fraud. (If so, I don't know why we just haven't ended it already)
  16. #456  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    This is an incorrect assumption. One example: The cost for insurance companies includes the cost of fighting claims fraud. Medicare does not include these cost. Fraud is so big in Medicare that Obama has stated that His healthcare program can be financed with the elimination of the fraud. (If so, I don't know why we just haven't ended it already)
    Yeah, the fraud problems in Medicare are indeed problematic. By the way, do you know that a signicant amount of fraud problems for Medicare are caused by private insurance companies? Like, for instance, Bill Frist's company? I realize it's old news to most people knowledgable about health care....but probably not to you. But sure, these are the people you want providing your health care for you. Again, nice call. Very insightful.

    A Department of Justice investigation that started when an employee found questionable documents in the dumpster behind an El Paso, TX hospital ended December 14 when the largest fraud settlement in US history was announced. Attorney General Janet Reno announced the settlement in a Washington press conference, citing this as victory against those unscrupulous health care providers who would take taxpayer money that does not rightly belong to them.

    In her statement, the Attorney General stated, "Under a civil settlement, HCA -The Healthcare Company will pay $745 million, plus interest, for its alleged false billing practices. And, it will pay $95 million in criminal fines.

    "In addition to these fines and damages, HCA - formerly known as Columbia/HCA - has also signed a Corporate Integrity Agreement with the Department of Health and Human Services. The agreement will assure that the violations that led to this investigation in the first place are not repeated. It will also require HCA to self-report misconduct to the Department of Health and Human Services and cooperate in the ongoing investigations into the conduct of individuals."

    In addition to the fines, two of HCA subsidiaries will no longer be able to participate in Medicare. HCA will also be under significant oversight with independent audits of all billing and contractual information for the next 8 years

    Those great insurance companies


    HCA and Medicare fraud
    Last edited by davidra; 10/02/2009 at 09:18 AM.
  17. #457  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    One I take the responsibility of providing for myself, the other I am a slave to my governments choice.
    i see, is there not somewhere in your history that you have citizen based army?

    Your statement that you are a slave to my governments choice(s), confuses me at best. You (and this is a broad brush stroke, not neccessarly you), blame Obama and the Democrats for many things that you believe are the cause of Americias ills. Yet, if I am not mistaken, much of what has come to pass was under the direct tutelage of a Republican President. I am unsure if during his 8 year sojourn in the white house, the republicans held majority sway over either of your lower houses.

    Might I be so bold to ask, is control of your life so totally important, that it excludes consideration of even your own neighbors?

    I have read many posts, against universal health care, it being the knife edge for further govt intervention in your lives. That people should give up what is considered by some to be the extras in their lives. Just so they can get health care. There is a TV commercial, it shows a woman, looking to open a can of food. As she starts to open it, the roof of the home she is in begins to rip off. At that point, the scene freezes, a male voice says, many people have to decide whether or not to eat or have a roof over their heads. She pushes a single can of food away, and the roof settles back on.

    I would point out, that no matter what many believe, and yes we have some here in Canada that believe the same, that many people give up many many things just to have a roof over their head, including eating.

    The mere thought of a child in either of our nations going hungry is just so much crap. Fact, hungry children learn at a much slower rate. Fact, children who dont learn usually end up repeating the cycle of their parents. Fact, children who do not eat a balance meal cost us more in health care.
    I know I know this is not about the health care thread, but more about the simple fact we no longer live in the wild wild west. Yes individualism is a good thing, but for just one moment, stop and think about your neighbor.

    I do believe your bible, koran, torah all preach to help one another. In a good conservative society, in which many of you wish to live, this should be a given. However, all I see is greed and a nod to being as self centered as possible.
    Again, this is not 100 years ago, since I graduate from high school the world population has damn near doubled. Gone are the days of " nobody is here we can do what we want".

    What I find totally astounding is many of you folks honestly believe that nothing matters other then making a buck. To hell with everyone else, just get money. This is, in my mind anway, a mind set that comes from Corporate America.

    During the past/present recession, ( I say this as I do not believe its over yet), many corps laid off people, to hold the bottom line, to give the shareholders the profits they were expecting. This is all fine and good, but as many of your own econominsts stated, fully 45 percent of those laid off, never needed to be laid off. The layoffs of millions of people ultimately will perpetuate this recession further. To use some of the terms here, domino effect, will with out doubt make the recovery longer then anyone expected.

    Well I tire of hearing the same people use the same old tired cliches to substantiate their stance on the big bad govt.

    Good luck with this, I fear, ultimately you will do nothing, even though you have what seems to be a good person in power.

    PS, time to stop believing in your own press. wake up and smell the coffee burning. Many countries are pushing to have America replaced as the world leader, including many old staunch allies. You want the knife edge, you want the slippery slope to the ulitmate demise of your society. China with several EU countries want to replace the American dollar as the world currency. If I was to be afraid of anything, that my southern friends is something that send shivers down your spines.
  18.    #458  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ...a signicant amount of fraud problems for Medicare are caused by private insurance companies?
    You have never seen me say I am against insurance reform. It IS definitely needed and yes it will take government controls because everyone won't act in a responsible manner.

    I would like (and this would have to come from the government) more competition from the insurance companies. Let them sell policies across State lines, let them offer a "buffet" of benefits. If I don't want pregnancy coverage, checkups etc covered, let me save those premiums and pay for it myself. I want just catastrophic coverage. If it's under $5k let me pay it myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    You (and this is a broad brush stroke, not neccessarly you), blame Obama and the Democrats for many things that you believe are the cause of Americias ills. Yet, if I am not mistaken, much of what has come to pass was under the direct tutelage of a Republican President.
    I blame BOTH parties. Without the corruption and infighting we wouldn't be in the mess (all over the world) we are currently in.

    I am unsure if during his 8 year sojourn in the white house, the republicans held majority sway over either of your lower houses.
    I wish there was a way to have a balance, where neither party controlled both Executive and Legislative Branches. Bring back grid-lock. With balance, the only things that get passed (usually) are things that are good for everyone.

    Might I be so bold to ask, is control of your life so totally important, that it excludes consideration of even your own neighbors?....I do believe your bible, koran, torah all preach to help one another. In a good conservative society, in which many of you wish to live, this should be a given. However, all I see is greed and a nod to being as self centered as possible.
    Part of being "responsible" is helping your neighbors. Charity is giving to help those who can't take care of themselves. I am blessed with a good income and I give a lot of it to help others. The government taking my money to help those is not charitable.

    This is, in my mind anway, a mind set that comes from Corporate America.
    Unfortunately, this is the picture presented by a lot of people. But, if you look to the average person, even the average corporation, there is a lot of good responsible citizens out there. But, the good reputations suffer from the bad.

    Now I have a question for you. I know you don't represent all Canadians so it is just your opinions:

    We hear stories about people in Canada having to wait to see a doctor, have surgery, etc.. Some people don't feel they can wait so come to this country for their surgeries. Have you heard of any of this happening?

    I have a friend from Sweden who loves their healthcare, when we talk about rationing healthcare to the elderly, she says people in her country understand that if you have lived a long life you shouldn't be a burden to your family and society and you should not "prolong" your life with expensive healthcare. How do you feel the sentiment in Canada is regarding this?
  19. #459  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    You have never seen me say I am against insurance reform. It IS definitely needed and yes it will take government controls because everyone won't act in a responsible manner.

    I would like (and this would have to come from the government) more competition from the insurance companies. Let them sell policies across State lines, let them offer a "buffet" of benefits. If I don't want pregnancy coverage, checkups etc covered, let me save those premiums and pay for it myself. I want just catastrophic coverage. If it's under $5k let me pay it myself.




    I blame BOTH parties. Without the corruption and infighting we wouldn't be in the mess (all over the world) we are currently in.



    I wish there was a way to have a balance, where neither party controlled both Executive and Legislative Branches. Bring back grid-lock. With balance, the only things that get passed (usually) are things that are good for everyone.



    Part of being "responsible" is helping your neighbors. Charity is giving to help those who can't take care of themselves. I am blessed with a good income and I give a lot of it to help others. The government taking my money to help those is not charitable.



    Unfortunately, this is the picture presented by a lot of people. But, if you look to the average person, even the average corporation, there is a lot of good responsible citizens out there. But, the good reputations suffer from the bad.

    Now I have a question for you. I know you don't represent all Canadians so it is just your opinions:

    We hear stories about people in Canada having to wait to see a doctor, have surgery, etc.. Some people don't feel they can wait so come to this country for their surgeries. Have you heard of any of this happening?

    I have a friend from Sweden who loves their healthcare, when we talk about rationing healthcare to the elderly, she says people in her country understand that if you have lived a long life you shouldn't be a burden to your family and society and you should not "prolong" your life with expensive healthcare. How do you feel the sentiment in Canada is regarding this?
    Compared to the US, Canada is a small country, only about 25- 27 million compared to your what is it now 250 - 275 million.

    Distances are vast, yes there are waits, yes some go south of the border to get things done. From my understanding, its not because they can not get the treatment here, but because they do not want to wait. We have people coming North quite often as well. There are things we do here in Canada that can not be done in the States or at least in a timely manner.

    As to the elderly thing, naw.. that does not happen here, not at all. My father, is 80 had a couple of heart attachs, then a few strokes.. he is recovering nicely.. wont be what he was.. but he is alive and as miserable as ever ( there is a cavet to this, he had a living will, which a family member went to court to have overturned, the family member won). I can say, there are some elderly, old country types who do believe in what your friend stated. We have laws against it, you have to jump through major hoops to get permission to allow yourself to die.

    Dont get me wrong here, my responses are strictly in direct reaction to some individuals down to the south that make assertions about universal health care that are untrue to say the least. I honestly believe that it should be put to a vote, set up the plan, then vote on the damn thing, then and only then can one side or the other say they were right. tis a simple thing really.

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