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  1. #381  
    boo hoo they made me eat their Big Macs and now I have diabetes
    +1
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    A parent should be held responsible for knowing where that fine line is located between remaining healthy and tipping the scale into disease? That fine line that is positioned differently in every single human on the planet? Why is it that I, for argument's sake, can eat a Big Mac, fries, and shake 3 days a week without gaining on ounce, my BP remains 120/80, and I remain in general good health, yet you, for argument's sake, can duplicate the same McDonalds intake while gaining a pound+ per week, your diastolic BP escalates into CHF territory while you tiptoe into Type-2 diabetes?

    Your bottom line appears to be "**** happens".



    Your solution is to refuse treatment at the ED door? Thanks.
    Ugggghh. Again, what is your point with the McDonalds? If I am eating unhealthy garbage like that and gaining weight, getting high BP, and leaning towards diabetes, maybe I should re-evaluate my diet and not eat there so often. But I guess it is much easier to blame the Big Mac.

    And I didn't say to refuse treatment. I said nothing even remotely close to that. What I asked is, why should I pay for all of the healthcare for an uninsured individual, in addition to emergency care? So please, once again, give me a reason why I should pay for all aspects of their healthcare. And please don't use McDonalds in your response.
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Feel free to re-ask yourself the question by substituting "McDonald's" with "mom's cooking" or the Chamber of Commerce cafeteria, if you so choose.



    So, once an uninsured patient has been on a vent for a week, but then develops a lung infection related to being dependent on the vent, the cost of treating the infection which will likely be in the $10k+ range, and the cost of their increased LOS should be on their dime (or at lease, someone else's dime but yours)? You're really not thinking healthcare through to its realistic and logical conclusions?

    What's your plan, again?
    Let's see. Ok, if I take Mom's cooking as a substitute for McDonalds, how will that work. Well, if mom is feeding her child junk, and the child is getting fat, is getting high BP, and is teetering on the edge of diabetes, maybe mom should re-evaluate the food she is giving her child. Seems pretty much the same to me.

    Why didn't that person have healthcare? How did they get on the vent? Really in the end, why is it my responsibility to pay for it? Or yours? Or anyone else's? It may sound insensitive, but it is not my responsibility to take care of your problems.
  4. #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Feel free to re-ask yourself the question by substituting "McDonald's" with "mom's cooking" or the Chamber of Commerce cafeteria, if you so choose.



    So, once an uninsured patient has been on a vent for a week, but then develops a lung infection related to being dependent on the vent, the cost of treating the infection which will likely be in the $10k+ range, and the cost of their increased LOS should be on their dime (or at lease, someone else's dime but yours)? You're really not thinking healthcare through to its realistic and logical conclusions?

    What's your plan, again?
    Let's see. Ok, if I take Mom's cooking as a substitute for McDonalds, how will that work. Well, if mom is feeding her child junk, and the child is getting fat, is getting high BP, and is teetering on the edge of diabetes, maybe mom should re-evaluate the food she is giving her child. Seems pretty much the same to me.

    Why didn't that person have healthcare? How did they get on the vent? Really in the end, why is it my responsibility to pay for it? Or yours? Or anyone else's?
  5.    #385  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Why is it that I, for argument's sake, can eat a Big Mac, fries, and shake 3 days a week without gaining on ounce, my BP remains 120/80, and I remain in general good health, yet you, for argument's sake, can duplicate the same McDonalds intake while gaining a pound+ per week, your diastolic BP escalates into CHF territory while you tiptoe into Type-2 diabetes?
    Again, this is where personal responsibility comes in. When I was in my 20s and 30s I could eat whatever I wanted and never gained a pound. Pressure was great. As I got older things changed, I started to gain weight and my BP started to creep up. I made a eating lifestyle change, lost 50lbs and have been keeping it off. Unfortunately, I have to limit my Big Mac and Popeyes Fried Chicken enjoyment. But, I don't BLAME them! Sure, when I was a kid, if you got a Coke it would be 6.5 oz. now it's 64oz. But, you don't have to get one that large and use it almost like an IV.

    Stop denying that personal responsibility is the main problem we are facing. Not only with healthcare, but with government and life in general!
    Last edited by Technologic 2; 10/01/2009 at 11:17 AM. Reason: spelling
  6. #386  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Try framing your response around the actual question asked:



    I know, I know ... It's Mom's fault why one child becomes diseased yet their sibling is healthy. And again, "**** happens", so let them eat cake!



    Your response regarding your otherwise undefined uninsured patient avoids responsibility for the welfare of those who require intervention. Please, stay out of healthcare for the sake of those who need it, regardless of method or mechanism.
    1) You asked me to substitute mom's cooking in the place of McDonalds, and I did.
    2) It's not the mother's fault. However, it is her fault if she does nothing in the face of the sibling's sickness. You're first comparison of two people eating at McDonalds and having different reactions made absolutely no sense, in that the conclusion was that people all over the world have different reactions to fast food. What is your point? If you are eating like crap and seeing your health go down the drain, I've got an idea. Stop eating like crap. Now I'm not sure what the point of your example of the two siblings is, but yes, the parent is responsible for her child's health if she sees a problem but does nothing to fix it. And yes, a parent is responsible for the child's sickness if they feed him or her crap, such as McDonalds, everyday.
    3) It's funny, but that's exactly what I'd like to tell Obama we met.
  7. #387  
    BTW, what is your deal with the "eat cake"? I'm sure even Mrs Antoinette would ask you to get a new catch phrase.
  8. #388  
    Ask yourself what you would give up for your own healthcare if you suddenly didn't have it. Could you find enough wasted income in your life to get rid of in order to buy a policy? It may not sound like fun, but I'm sure you could live without a cell phone and plan, tv, internet, new clothes, going out to eat, etc. People don't like to hear that they need to sacrifice in order to get what they need in life. They would much rather have those "needs" given to them so they can keep their "wants". Move out of your house and get an apt. Get a less expensive apt. Lose the nice vehicle and buy a cheap car. Take the bus. Pinch pennies. Doesn't sound fun? Then move to Costa Rica, where you can get your healthcare, ranked higher than the US, and enjoy their fantastic standard of living. Or maybe go to Columbia and take advantage of their fantastic healthcare programs. I'm sure the standard of living is fantastic there, plus free healthcare! And you're sure to find a job with their booming economy.
    Face it. you have life pretty good. Take some of those unnecessary elements of your life and throw them out the window. You'll be surprised at the money you could find to pay for your own insurance. But your right, that would cramp your style and your fun. So put your hand out and let Obama and 1thing make sure you can keep that ipod.

    At least I can look forward to the Packers pounding Favre and the ViQueens on Monday night. Maybe Obama can get me tickets. After all, I deserve it.
  9. #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Again, this is where personal responsibility comes in. When I was in my 20s and 30s I could eat whatever I wanted and never gained a pound. Pressure was great. As I got older things changed, I started to gain weight and my BP started to creep up. I made a eating lifestyle change, lost 50lbs and have been keeping it off. Unfortunately, I have to limit my Big Mac and Popeyes Fried Chicken enjoyment. But, I don't BLAME them! Sure, when I was a kid, if you got a Coke it would be 6.5 oz. now it's 64oz. But, you don't have to get one that large and use it almost like an IV.

    Stop denying that personal responsibility is the main problem we are facing. Not only with healthcare, but with government and life in general!
    You just don't get it. You and your ilk seem convinced that personal responsibility is all it takes to take care of the health care problem. That and tort reform. Tell you what. Take a walk through a children's ward in any academic medical center. Find out what diseases are killing and sickening the children there, and then tell me about the personal responsibility that will deter leukemia, swine flu, brain tumors, osteogenic sarcoma, or any other disease state that you see on that ward. And just so you don't think it's really that different among adults, I'll just give you a list of diseases that are on the ward I'm taking care of right now:
    Venous thrombosis
    Prostate cancer
    Chronic renal failure post transplant with rejection
    Congenital heart disease in an adult
    Cystic fibrosis
    Type I diabetes (that's right, the kind not caused by diet)
    Colon cancer
    Inflammatory bowel disease

    and one patient with Type II diabetes, obese, with a skin infection.

    That's one patient who you might argue had personal responsibility for their health. But you're willing to ignore all of the other people who had nothing to do with causing their disease because a few are obese and don't eat right? Hey, those are your priorities. Pardon me if Ithink they are misdirected.
  10. #390  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Again, throwing statistics around like they're undeniable facts. That study was based on a sample of less that 2,500 people. Less than .2% of all bankruptcies in the year of the study. Using that study to conclude that over 60% of bankruptcies are because of medical bills is laughable.
    No doubt medical bills contribute to bankruptcies. However, the more likely cause of bankruptcies is over-extending one's self with credit cards, irresponsible spending, or taking out mortgages beyond one's means. There are many causes of bankruptcy. However, the main cause is NOT due to medical bills.
    Not surprisingly, you appear to be unaware of how population-based research is done. There is no required reporting, so the only way to get data is by doing a sampling technique that is valid. Theirs was valid. The fact is that their study has a confidence interval that gives the variability in the true result. Such studies can never claim they are abolutely correct, all they can do is address likelihood and probability. And the study I posted found that you are absolutely correct....many bankrupt people did extend themselves beyond their means with credit cards. How? Paying for their health care, and that doesn't show up in court statistics. Where is your data that shows the main cause is NOT due to medical bills?
  11. #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Look, Acting like everyone who opposes this healthcare reform is some uneducated buffoon who is simply spreading fear is not only insulting, but shows a bit of intelectual snobbiness. To refute many arguments by stating that they are "slippery slope" scare tacticsis ignoring valid concerns about the power the gov't will wield once they do have control over a great percentage of people's daily lives.
    I did not have insurance in college, mainly because it was expensive. That's not to say I couldn't afford it. Being young, I just put other parts of my life ahead of buying health insurance, things that I obviously could live without. You act as if everyone without health insurance cannot afford it, and both you and I know that's not the case. No one is denying the fact that there are millions of tough cases out there. But for every sad story and harsh statistic that is rolled out, there are just as many people who simply choose not to be covered. Should I feel sorry for these people if something happens to them? I'm sorry, but no. They knew the risks, just as I did.
    In Wisconsin, there are health plans available from $60 with high deductibles, and around $100-$150 with moderate deductibles of around $2000-3000 per year. My wifehad a plan that cost her $165/month before we were married, and gave her fantastic coverage. If you are on this site, and are for Obama's healthcare proposal because you "Can't afford coverage", look at your phone, your calling plan, your internet bill, and then try to tell me again with a straight face that you can't afford it.
    True, insurance does not cover all costs. You will still have out of pocket expenses, but considering what we spend our money on, these costs can be, for the most part, taken care of. Of course there are other cases with circumstances that are beyond this. However, they are not as widespread as everyone says they are. And here in Wisconsin, every child is already covered, either by personal insurance, or by BadgerCare. The arguement that we need this plan in order to make sure all children are covered is not valid in my eyes.
    Even if you deny all of this, you still need to explain to me why I need to pay for someone elses healthcare. Where is this money going to come from? I am already being taxed higher than others, and now my taxes are going to increase because I need to help fund a public healthcare option. Can anyone explain to me why I should support this? Why is it my responsibility to shoulder the burden this plan? I have worked incredibly hard to get to where I am at life. I am apathetic to the problems many people are having, especially in this economy, but no one is holding them back from going back to school to get an education in a field that has higher demand. There are many ways to improve your lot in life. The problem is that many people are unwilling to sacrifice what we now consider "necessities" in order to get there.
    Oh, they knew the risks and didn't buy coverage, and now they have leukemia. What would you like to do with them? You want to let them die in the street? No, you want them to go to a charity facility (which is where that moron Kantor would send them, and he had the lack o insight to say it in front of a camera which just pointed out what a ******bag he is) because it's unseemly to have a country that let's people die in the street. At least most countries feel that way. But somebody has to pay for that care, and guess who it is? It's you. Those hospital workers have to be paid, those tests need to be paid for, the chemotherapy has to be paid for. And it's all just passed along to you one way or another. This is just a very inefficient and irresponsible way to do it, as opposed to being transparent in terms of costs.

    People should not have to sacrifice anything for decent affordable health care coverage. What you have in your state means nothing to people in my state. Maybe I'll just tell them to move north. Why should you help pay for health care for people that can't afford it, through no fault of their own? Because we live in a country that hopefully is willing to provide for those who cannot afford health care. Again I'll suggest you take a look at the posts by Canadians on these health care threads. They are very pleased with their health care system, and they are also proud that they can help others. They also think we're morons for succumbing to scare tactics and manure. Hopefully we can prove them wrong.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You just don't get it. You and your ilk seem convinced that personal responsibility is all it takes to take care of the health care problem. That and tort reform. Tell you what. Take a walk through a children's ward in any academic medical center. Find out what diseases are killing and sickening the children there, and then tell me about the personal responsibility that will deter leukemia, swine flu, brain tumors, osteogenic sarcoma, or any other disease state that you see on that ward. And just so you don't think it's really that different among adults, I'll just give you a list of diseases that are on the ward I'm taking care of right now:
    Venous thrombosis
    Prostate cancer
    Chronic renal failure post transplant with rejection
    Congenital heart disease in an adult
    Cystic fibrosis
    Type I diabetes (that's right, the kind not caused by diet)
    Colon cancer
    Inflammatory bowel disease

    and one patient with Type II diabetes, obese, with a skin infection.

    That's one patient who you might argue had personal responsibility for their health. But you're willing to ignore all of the other people who had nothing to do with causing their disease because a few are obese and don't eat right? Hey, those are your priorities. Pardon me if Ithink they are misdirected.
    If you're walking through a hospital and seeing all these people.... doesn't that mean that they're getting treated - and without a single payer system?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    736 Posts
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    739 Global Posts
    #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    People should not have to sacrifice anything for decent affordable health care coverage.
    So which is it? "Not have to sacrifice anything" i.e., "free", or just affordable?

    Cause if you're really saying that healthcare will be free, well heck, why didn't you just say so!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14.    #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You just don't get it. You and your ilk seem convinced that personal responsibility is all it takes to take care of the health care problem. That and tort reform. Tell you what. Take a walk through a children's ward in any academic medical center. Find out what diseases are killing and sickening the children there, and then tell me about the personal responsibility that will deter leukemia, swine flu, brain tumors, osteogenic sarcoma, or any other disease state that you see on that ward. And just so you don't think it's really that different among adults, I'll just give you a list of diseases that are on the ward I'm taking care of right now:
    Venous thrombosis
    Prostate cancer
    Chronic renal failure post transplant with rejection
    Congenital heart disease in an adult
    Cystic fibrosis
    Type I diabetes (that's right, the kind not caused by diet)
    Colon cancer
    Inflammatory bowel disease

    and one patient with Type II diabetes, obese, with a skin infection.

    That's one patient who you might argue had personal responsibility for their health. But you're willing to ignore all of the other people who had nothing to do with causing their disease because a few are obese and don't eat right? Hey, those are your priorities. Pardon me if Ithink they are misdirected.
    I know what they say about assumptions, but I am going to assume you are not an *****.

    Do you really think when I talk about personal responsibility it means that all disease can just be avoided because you are responsible?

    Personal responsibility does mean taking care of yourself, but it also means protecting yourself from expensive medical care. Arrange your budget so that you purchase health insurance! Now, I know everyone CAN'T (as opposed to WON'T) get health insurance. For those, some reforms are needed (which gets me included in the statistic that ~80% are for healthcare reform). See my suggestions in post #1 of this thread to see how people who can't get covered could be covered.
  15. #395  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Stop denying that personal responsibility is the main problem we are facing. Not only with healthcare, but with government and life in general!
    Until you are prepared to deny health care to the uninsured with life threatening illnesses or injuries, the personal responsibility argument does nothing to fix our health care system.

    Of course, most civilized cultures would see denied health care as broken.
  16.    #396  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ...swine flu,.... I'll just give you a list of diseases that are on the ward I'm taking care of right now:
    Come on...someone with your experience wouldn't call it "swine flu"?
  17. #397  
    I am a Canadian, I will say this up front, our health care system is not perfect. It is one hell of alot better then what you have right now. Yes, you can buy your health care. Yes you can make the choice about what coverage you get. Yes if you get sick the insurance company can cancel, and does. The mere fact a private insurance company can play god with you is absolutely amazing.
    Just suppose, Micael, you contract some horrible illness, it can be anything, just what gives the right to your insurance company to cancel your coverage? I assume that you pay your coverage on time an in full, whether it be monthly or in a single lump sum payment. Where does the company get off on cancelling your coverage?
    I am sure, your answer will be just go out and get a new insurance company. Why the hell should you have to. You have been a good client, buying up every thing the company has to offer, spending thousands of dollars, annually, for years with out a single claim. Again, what right do they have to play god?
    Universal health care is a big bad thing for you, for many reasons. I have seen posts here pointing at govt, to taking responsibility for yourself. The full gamut of reasons.

    Now many of you state, your capitalist society is the best in the world, that is another discussion, you also state that big govt should not get involved in alot of things, health care being one of them. Individualism is the rule of the day, stand up or pull yourelf up by your bootstraps. Ok, then why are your armed forces in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or anyone of another couple of dozen countries? Should they not being standing on their own two feet? Pulling themselves up by their bootstraps? Why is it that past President Bush, and at the time, a majority of Americans support intervening in those countries?

    This sort of thing confuses this poor boy from the great white north. On one hand you say NOOOOOOOOOOOO to big govt and health care and and and, yet many of the same people who are screaming no to universal health care were the same people who just had to go and help those poor Iraq's or Afghans, or Columbians, or or or.. As I said, I am confused, how can it be you will sacrifice your youth in some other country, but wont even offer the basics in health care for the same youth here at home?? Seems to be just a little hypocritical to me... But explain it, so this poor boy from the great white north can understand.
  18. #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Come on...someone with your experience wouldn't call it "swine flu"?
    +1000 heh heh. Poser.
  19.    #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    ...your juvenile paranoia about internet gamesmanship...
    I am so glad it's no longer a "fear"

    I didn't say H1N1 isn't commonly called "swine flu", I said someone with his medical experience would normally called it H1N1
  20. #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Oh, they knew the risks and didn't buy coverage, and now they have leukemia. What would you like to do with them? You want to let them die in the street? No, you want them to go to a charity facility (which is where that moron Kantor would send them, and he had the lack o insight to say it in front of a camera which just pointed out what a ******bag he is) because it's unseemly to have a country that let's people die in the street. At least most countries feel that way. But somebody has to pay for that care, and guess who it is? It's you. Those hospital workers have to be paid, those tests need to be paid for, the chemotherapy has to be paid for. And it's all just passed along to you one way or another. This is just a very inefficient and irresponsible way to do it, as opposed to being transparent in terms of costs.

    People should not have to sacrifice anything for decent affordable health care coverage. What you have in your state means nothing to people in my state. Maybe I'll just tell them to move north. Why should you help pay for health care for people that can't afford it, through no fault of their own? Because we live in a country that hopefully is willing to provide for those who cannot afford health care. Again I'll suggest you take a look at the posts by Canadians on these health care threads. They are very pleased with their health care system, and they are also proud that they can help others. They also think we're morons for succumbing to scare tactics and manure. Hopefully we can prove them wrong.
    Thank you. Pretty much reinforced exactly what I thought of Liberals. Be irresponsible with your life, ie not buying health coverage, and then expect to be bailed out when the worst happens to you. And why didn't you buy that coverage? Because "People should not have to sacrifice anything for decent affordable health care coverage." F'n classic.
    That person refused to buy insurance, and now that it backfired, and in a pretty big way with leukemia I must say, I am now responsible to pay for their irresponsibility, while also being responsible and paying for my own insurance, in case I get leukemia. But that's to be expected, because he or she couldn't "afford" to sacrifice a thing in their life in order to shore up the funds to buy insurance. I'm almost laughing at how typical this type of thinking is.

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