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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I listen to the health experts. One of things they bring up is how much we are spending compare to other countries and what we are getting for the amount we spend. You think the way you do. I think the way I do. Neither of us are going to change our opinion.
    Heath experts? Could you provide a list of names and their credentials that elevate them to the status of experts. Agree or disagree, I'd like to see where youre getting your information.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2.    #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I listen to the health experts.
    Be careful...experts are a dime a dozen.

    I've heard "experts" say: "If our healthcare system is so great, why do we not have the highest mortality rates?"

    What statistic show is that:
    Japanese Americans live longer than Japanese in Japan
    Asian Americans live longer than Asians in Asia
    Each ethnic group for different reasons have different mortality rates. US is a very diversified country and if you combine statistics it is very deceiving when you compare to countries that are not as diverse.

    Source: Dept of Health and Human Services, Office of Minority Health
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That's the way you think and there is nothing anyone can do to change your mind. Just like there is nothing you can do to change my mind.
    I'll buy you a beer (I recommend Saranac's Black and Tan) if you ever come to Syracuse. Will that at least TEMPT you into changing your mind?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I listen to the health experts. One of things they bring up is how much we are spending compare to other countries and what we are getting for the amount we spend. You think the way you do. I think the way I do. Neither of us are going to change our opinion.
    Much of what we "spend" pays for the R&D that produces the drugs and treatments that we, and THEY use to treat the sick. So THEY have a reduced overhead, so to speak.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Heath experts? Could you provide a list of names and their credentials that elevate them to the status of experts. Agree or disagree, I'd like to see where youre getting your information.
    No.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  6.    #286  
    For those of you who hate profits, think insurance companies are ripping you off, think top salaries should be limited...I have an idea!

    The free market system is great!

    You can start your own insurance company! Keep overhead down to 2-3%, limit salaries, and any profits would be returned to your policyholders. Since this is what so many people want, I am sure you will have a lot of customers. What is stopping you?
  7.    #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Still nothing to show a relationship between the most profitable private insurance companies and the best patient outcomes, huh? If the free market worked where our healthcare provider model is concerned, and the customer/patient benefited, that "proof" should be at your fingertips.
    If claims are not paid, customers get upset and shop elsewhere for insurance. If you lose your customers you don't make a profit.

    Pay your claims, treat your customers good, you get more customers, you make more profits.

    That's how companies are rewarded for their benefits they provide. (Before the age of bailouts anyway)

    Better patient outcomes come from being able to afford better treatment.

    Hope this has made it simple to understand.
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    If claims are not paid, customers get upset and shop elsewhere for insurance. If you lose your customers you don't make a profit.

    Pay your claims, treat your customers good, you get more customers, you make more profits.

    That's how companies are rewarded for their benefits they provide. (Before the age of bailouts anyway)

    Better patient outcomes come from being able to afford better treatment.

    Hope this has made it simple to understand.
    Yes, very simple, which figures given the source. Do you really think that the 90% of people who file a claim for a primary care visit are going to get denied? It's the much smaller percentage that have major illness, and who need the insurance the most that will be dropped or underpaid. And does this appear in the newspaper? Does it get told to the other 90%? Do you have any idea how many denials your insurance company has come up with this week? The small percentage they lose is just fine with them, because they would cause major losses. Naivete is a dreadful thing, isn't it?
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    The bill does have provisions to pay for end-of-life counseling. Sure, a living will is good to have. But, is this something the government should be involved in? This should be between the person involved and their families or doctor.
    Do you pay attention to anything? The provision that was removed because it was misrepresented by the republicans mandated nothing. All it said was that a doctor could be reimbursed if they discussed a living will with a patient. Currently that time with the patient cannot be paid for. That's all it did. It was still completely optional for both the doctor and the patient. Does that sound like "government involvement" to you? Pretty scary, isn't it?
  10.    #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Do you pay attention to anything? The provision that was removed because it was misrepresented by the republicans mandated nothing. All it said was that a doctor could be reimbursed if they discussed a living will with a patient. Currently that time with the patient cannot be paid for. That's all it did. It was still completely optional for both the doctor and the patient. Does that sound like "government involvement" to you? Pretty scary, isn't it?
    Did you even read my post? That is exactly what I said it does. I told you I read the bill and I explained what it actually stated. The "death panels" some spoke about wasn't actually in the bill, but the vagueness in the bill could have easily led to rationing care based on basically the possible worth of the individual. That IS in there, read it.
  11.    #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, very simple, which figures given the source. Do you really think that the 90% of people who file a claim for a primary care visit are going to get denied? It's the much smaller percentage that have major illness, and who need the insurance the most that will be dropped or underpaid. And does this appear in the newspaper? Does it get told to the other 90%? Do you have any idea how many denials your insurance company has come up with this week? The small percentage they lose is just fine with them, because they would cause major losses. Naivete is a dreadful thing, isn't it?
    I'm sure you have a source for your statistics. 10% of legitimate claims being denied? Really? Some people just like to throw out numbers. Does your state have an Insurance Commissioner (or similar position)? They are there to help consumers. If they are notified of a claim being denied, they will review it, and give the insurance company a very short time to respond. An insurance policy is a legal contract, that must be honored by all parties or there can be substantial penalties.
  12.    #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Post it since you're so intimately familiar with the particular language that allows for healthcare rationing. Looking forward to the additional references whereby those with proper credentials also share your view. Thanks!
    Straight from H.R. 3200

    The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’.

    The wording is too much to copy it all on this thread, but it is available on the internet. I recommend you read it.
  13.    #293  
    With scant public input, state and federal officials are pushing ahead with plans that -- during a severe flu outbreak -- would deny use of scarce ventilators by some patients to assure they would be available for patients judged to benefit the most from them.

    The plans have been drawn up to give doctors specific guidelines for extreme circumstances, and they include procedures under which patients who weren't improving would be removed from life support with or without permission of their families.

    ....and this is what happens when the government has control.

    Health | Officials ponder disconnecting ventilators from some patients in severe flu outbreak | Seattle Times Newspaper
  14.    #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Where does generalized rationing come in again?
    Actually, I made the whole thing up and the right wing media just took off with it. We all know the only ones rationing care are those evil profit-making insurance companies.

    Still trying to find out...Do you know who was on the committee that wrote this bill?
  15.    #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Why should today be any different?



    Yes. Why?
    Ok, so who did? I can't find it anywhere. I can see who introduced it, but who wrote it? Most Representatives haven't even read it.
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    As with most higher execs, they have a staff who does the grunt work and advises accordingly. Some will. Most won't. Whining about a congressman who's unfamiliar with some benign oddity isn't worth bringing up.

    H.R. 3200: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)
    Translation:

    I don't know who wrote it and I don't care. It doesnt really matter if anyone reads it. It's from the democrats so it's gotta be good.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Me too. And that's exactly what's going to happen, since the majority of citizens want available health care for all. And probably not from a paid consultant....we do need to be saved from doctors that see their role in that manner. There are too many that can't afford a consultant...but they still need care...and they seem to like doctors that are invested in their care. Maybe psychiatrists don't feel that's appropriate.
    Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™

    Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters nationwide now oppose the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the highest level of opposition yet measured and includes 44% who are Strongly Opposed.

    Just 43% now favor the proposal, including 24% who Strongly Favor it.

    But the overall picture remains one of stability. While the numbers have bounced a bit following nationally televised appearances by the president to promote the plan, opposition has generally stayed above 50% since early July. Support has been in the low to mid 40s.
    I have never indicated that changes are not needed. I do not agree with what I have learned about current proposals.

    Maybe if Congress was willing to let the people they are supposed to represent read what they are proposing to do, more people would agree with what they are proposing.

    I, of course, doubt it; but (and I hope everyone can agree on this) it would be extremely nice to have the opportunity to find out!



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  18. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #298  
    Many of us (I hope most of us) are truly concerned about people who do not seek treatment or receive anything less than the "standard of care" -- sort of a minimum but acceptable set of treatments or interventions for an illness and generally determined by whatever medical specialty treats that illness -- due to the fact that they lack medical insurance (because Federal law dictates that hospitals are legally obligated to treat everyone who comes through the door...no one can be refused solely because they do not have insurance). [And, yes...I realize that people can choose to break or attempt to break that law, thereby refusing to treat someone.]

    So, I am posting a few links to articles which discuss the infamous "46 million uninsured American" statistic so that anyone who is interested can look at where that number comes from, how it is defined, etc. and come to their own conclusions. I believe this is important for a few reasons, but they boil down to communication. You cannot have a meaningful debate if the people debating are not talking about the same things.

    If I want to insure any person on US soil and you want to insure US citizens, then we actually have an additional issue to try to resolve--whether or not to insure people who are not US citizens. Having some idea about how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are not Americans would probably help with that discussion.

    If you want focus on providing coverage for those who are uninsured for more than 3 months, it would be helpful to know how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are without insurance for less than that period of time.

    So, these are for personal edification...I did not read them all..GOOGLE is my friend and I searched "uninsured americans statistics".

    But, please keep in mind...statistics can be anybody's *****! Have fun!!!

    ...from one of the 46 million uninsured Americans! [NB: I am included that number because I did not have insurance for one month in 2003..."uninsured" is uninsured at anytime during the year in question.]

    CDC Features - Uninsured Americans: Newly Released Health Insurance Statistics

    The uninsured and lying with statistics | Independence Institute: Patient Power

    NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage

    Health Insurance US Health Insurance Statistics – How Many Really are Uninsured?

    Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  19. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #299  
    This is not meant to inflame but inform...please take it (or leave it) in the spirit in which it is shared!

    Cost Is Foremost Healthcare Issue for Americans



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  20. noaxis2's Avatar
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    #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
    LOOOOOOOVE IT!!!!



    Being me has its advantages.

    -- Albus Dumbledore, Headmaster, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry

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