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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Not so simple. There is a huge number of those "young and invincible" who don't so much feel invincible as they feel broke. If I had to buy my own insurance when I was starting out I wouldn't have been able to eat--no matter how much it costed. So I made a trade off. The mandate combined with a public option is far from a giveaway to the insurance companies, its going to be a huge addition of people on the government's subsidized option.
    I'm not getting what you're saying. Yes, I understand mandatory will add an expense to the young that don't want it, but they need at least catastrophic coverage. Using mandatory auto insurance as an example, when a young uninsured person gets "hit by a bus" (and I hate to say that cause I would hate for it to happen to anyone) or any other catastrophic illness/injury, it's like everyone's car getting a ding. The costs the hospital incurs are passed on to us.

    So uninsured young health people are like the guy that hits you without liability insurance.

    Are you saying you don;t accept that reality and some means of addressing it?
  2.    #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'm not getting what you're saying. Yes, I understand mandatory will add an expense to the young that don't want it, but they need at least catastrophic coverage. Using mandatory auto insurance as an example, when a young uninsured person gets "hit by a bus" (and I hate to say that cause I would hate for it to happen to anyone) or any other catastrophic illness/injury, it's like everyone's car getting a ding. The costs the hospital incurs are passed on to us.

    So uninsured young health people are like the guy that hits you without liability insurance.
    You make a very good point here.

    Are you saying you don;t accept that reality and some means of addressing it?
    Are these people getting treatment now? Yes.
    Should we turn them away? No.
    But, since these people ARE being treated, should we be using this as the example to throw out the whole system?

    What do you think we should do about treating illegal aliens? They won't be buying the mandated insurance, they won't be paying the extra Tax Penalty, but can we let them just go untreated?
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    You make a very good point here.
    Thank you Sir.


    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Are these people getting treatment now? Yes.
    Should we turn them away? No.
    But, since these people ARE being treated, should we be using this as the example to throw out the whole system?
    NO ONE is talking about throwing away the whole system. These people are being treated yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. No society would or should take an uninsured person just hit by a bus and throw them in a ditch and ignore them.

    As you've agreed to, there's a problem with the system and that's the uninsured without catastrophic coverage. They need to be in the system so their health care is covered without passing the costs on to others. A non-profit gov't run insurance OPTION is the only fair thing to offer if we're going to plug this hole with mandatory coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    What do you think we should do about treating illegal aliens? They won't be buying the mandated insurance, they won't be paying the extra Tax Penalty, but can we let them just go untreated?
    the illegals issue is not one for health care, it's one for a debate about illegal workers in this country. My simple solution is legal penalties for those that hire them. Do that, and when you ask me about where they get their health care I could confidently say, "Their country".
  4.    #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    A non-profit gov't run insurance OPTION is the only fair thing to offer if we're going to plug this hole with mandatory coverage.
    Are you familiar how Flood Insurance works? It is a federal backed program, sold by and administered by insurance companies. It worked well after Katrina (for those who chose to buy it)

    the illegals issue is not one for health care, it's one for a debate about illegal workers in this country. My simple solution is legal penalties for those that hire them. Do that, and when you ask me about where they get their health care I could confidently say, "Their country".
    Although this sounds good, there are people who will take the risk and hire them, the riskier, the lower the price they will work for, the lower they work for, the more people will risk hiring them.

    Getting them back to their country is a good solution, but since they ARE here, what do we do about their care? Treat them then deport them? You can't just not treat them. What if they have something contagious? We can't have them walking the streets untreated.
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Are you familiar how Flood Insurance works? It is a federal backed program, sold by and administered by insurance companies. It worked well after Katrina (for those who chose to buy it)
    Again, we have to have mandatory coverage and the only fair lowest option for catastrophic coverage is a gov't RUN non-profit option. We can't make that a giveaway to the insurance companies. It's not ethical to give profits to insurance companies due to a gov't required insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Although this sounds good, there are people who will take the risk and hire them, the riskier, the lower the price they will work for, the lower they work for, the more people will risk hiring them.

    Getting them back to their country is a good solution, but since they ARE here, what do we do about their care? Treat them then deport them? You can't just not treat them. What if they have something contagious? We can't have them walking the streets untreated.
    Again, I don't want this to go out of scope for this thread's issue, start putting business owners in jail that hire illegals and you will see them all go home.

    g-night for now.
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Mandatory would be effective, eliminating the problem of pre-existing conditions. But, the people who would be excluded from the penalties because of income are some of the same ones that don't have coverage.

    I also wonder why some people are so against profits by insurance companies (and I presume healthcare providers). Sure, should someone benefit by my bad health? But, this country is built on rewarding success with profits (Unfortunately, we now reward failure with profits). Healthcare is a necessity, but so is food. Do we stop farmers from making a profit?
    I'm not against insurance companies making profits. It just appears to me that they cannot make profits and allow us to solve the health care problem. Their high overhead in combination with the fact that they are not needed with a more efficient Medicare system suggests that the only solution is to avoid them. Insurance premiums for health care have gone up much higher than any other kind of insurance. It has worked out, for a variety of reasons, that health insurance will be a non-viable business unless we're going to bankrupt the country. Additionally, we don't need anything as complicated as a combined system, or issues about age or requiring people to buy insurance if there is no need....over ten years, we continue to decrease the cost of Medicare, put into it the money we spend on Medicaid and make it more efficient and managing care more carefully for it. Your idea of having insurance for minimal charges and then have the government for a backup is the opposite of what I would consider IF we have to even have insurance at all. Let Medicare cover all costs up to a certain amount and then require everyone to have a low cost catastrophic plan. But that's where it gets tough, because how you define catastrophic is key.

    In summary, the best way to do this financially is by expanding Medicare to everyone. That probably won't happen, but it's the easiest and safest way to get out of this.
  7.    #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Again, we have to have mandatory coverage and the only fair lowest option for catastrophic coverage is a gov't RUN non-profit option. We can't make that a giveaway to the insurance companies. It's not ethical to give profits to insurance companies due to a gov't required insurance.
    We already do with auto insurance.



    Start putting business owners in jail that hire illegals and you will see them all go home.
    Probably, but if they don't. Do we cover them in the meantime?
  8.    #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Insurance premiums for health care have gone up much higher than any other kind of insurance.
    Premiums on policies are calculated based on what they expect to pay out. Since the cost of Medical Care has gone up the highest, the premiums to cover it has to go up. People live longer-life insurance premiums are going lower...Same companies

    Let Medicare cover all costs up to a certain amount and then require everyone to have a low cost catastrophic plan. But that's where it gets tough, because how you define catastrophic is key.
    The policy I have is BCBS Value Plan. It is as close to a Catastrophic Plan you can get. No Doctors Office Visits, No Prescription Drugs, Basically In-patient only (with a few exceptions-MRIs, wellness screenings) The premiums on that are also going up ridiculously, again because of the cost of a Hospital Stay. For just that coverage, for 2 adults in their 50s and 2 dependent children I pay almost $800 per month. Although a lot better than a POS policy. But again, it is not the insurance companies driving up the premiums for large profits, it is the actual cost of the medical care. A large percentage of insurance company profits come from their investments.
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    We already do with auto insurance.
    And I say it's not ethical and as stated elsewhere on these boards, liability auto insurance should be a gov't general fund obtained with a per gallon tax, which correlates directly to the amount of time one is on the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Probably, but if they don't. Do we cover them in the meantime?
    No. How could a non-citizen buy into an American plan? Of course immediate and life threatening issues would always be cared for in a humane society, as they are currently.
  10.    #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And I say it's not ethical and as stated elsewhere on these boards, liability auto insurance should be a gov't general fund obtained with a per gallon tax, which correlates directly to the amount of time one is on the road.
    I'm sure a gov't takeover of auto insurance is also on the horizon. But, one thing at a time...

    No. How could a non-citizen buy into an American plan? Of course immediate and life threatening issues would always be cared for in a humane society, as they are currently.
    Everything I've heard so far from President Obama's plan would be NOT to cover illegal aliens. I am sure you hear more details than me, are you saying Obama's plan DOES cover illegal aliens?
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #231  
    When did this become a question of taking over health insurance? I thought we were "fixing healthcare". Insurance companies aren't the culprits, so why is everyone fixated on them?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'm not getting what you're saying. Yes, I understand mandatory will add an expense to the young that don't want it, but they need at least catastrophic coverage. Using mandatory auto insurance as an example, when a young uninsured person gets "hit by a bus" (and I hate to say that cause I would hate for it to happen to anyone) or any other catastrophic illness/injury, it's like everyone's car getting a ding. The costs the hospital incurs are passed on to us.

    So uninsured young health people are like the guy that hits you without liability insurance.

    Are you saying you don;t accept that reality and some means of addressing it?
    What I'm saying is that setting up a mandatory system and a public option will force many people onto government subsidy. Since a lot of those are the young, this gets people on a system early in life that its hard to get off of. And since a lot of these people may, in the not so distant future, be newly legalized citizens, I think we can see the potential for this being a huge number of people.

    So, the second point I was making is who will be paying for all of these newly subsidized? Can we get a guarantee that health care reform will not be followed by an amnesty program?
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    I'm sure a gov't takeover of auto insurance is also on the horizon. But, one thing at a time...
    In a situation where it's mandatory by law, it's the only ethical thing to do. Otherwise it's corporate welfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technologic 2 View Post
    Everything I've heard so far from President Obama's plan would be NOT to cover illegal aliens. I am sure you hear more details than me, are you saying Obama's plan DOES cover illegal aliens?
    I'm saying if someone presents to an ER they are going to be treated. It's the law.
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    What I'm saying is that setting up a mandatory system and a public option will force many people onto government subsidy. Since a lot of those are the young, this gets people on a system early in life that its hard to get off of. And since a lot of these people may, in the not so distant future, be newly legalized citizens, I think we can see the potential for this being a huge number of people.

    So, the second point I was making is who will be paying for all of these newly subsidized? Can we get a guarantee that health care reform will not be followed by an amnesty program?
    Um, a public option will not be free. It's simply a gov't run health insurance company.

    Don't know why you want to mix illegal workers in with this. Why would health care reform be followed by an amnesty push? Making no sense to me whatsoever.

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    #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Um, a public option will not be free. It's simply a gov't run health insurance company.
    Not free, but heavily subsidized.

    Don't know why you want to mix illegal workers in with this. Why would health care reform be followed by an amnesty push? Making no sense to me whatsoever.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/us...s/09immig.html

    While acknowledging that the recession makes the political battle more difficult, President Obama plans to begin addressing the country’s immigration system this year, including looking for a path for illegal immigrants to become legal, a senior administration official said on Wednesday.
  16. #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Not free, but heavily subsidized.
    I don't see any evidence of that.

    And as far as illegal workers are concerned, I will always work to prevent them from entering the country as it's a lobor issue for me and illegal labor lowers the value of labor for American workers.

    But I would prefer to keep this thread on fixing health care.
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I don't see any evidence of that.

    And as far as illegal workers are concerned, I will always work to prevent them from entering the country as it's a lobor issue for me and illegal labor lowers the value of labor for American workers.

    But I would prefer to keep this thread on fixing health care.
    If its not subsidized, how will the public option be made affordable to everyone? Including the working poor and non-working poor?

    Likewise, the immigration issue is a huge part of the health care issue if the President is also pushing for amnesty. Looking at the President's health care reforms without looking at his immigration reforms is like looking at the buck my right hand is holding out for you without looking at the wallet my left hand is taking out of your back pocket.
  18. #238  
    They are humanely treated as needed in an emergency room. That is the law of the land. As for liability auto insurance government general fund? Wow. We have automobile insurance to protect others if we do something wrong or to protect ourselves against those who do not have insurance. The federal government does not need to be in this arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And I say it's not ethical and as stated elsewhere on these boards, liability auto insurance should be a gov't general fund obtained with a per gallon tax, which correlates directly to the amount of time one is on the road.



    No. How could a non-citizen buy into an American plan? Of course immediate and life threatening issues would always be cared for in a humane society, as they are currently.
  19. #239  
    Barry states that illegal immigrants are not/should not be covered by the one-party pay system (government mandated health insurance). His desire is to legalize them and with that done, there ain't no lie told. Just another lie told to the public.

    One more thing. Has anyone paid attention to the amount of money this bill provides to the UAW insurance fund? The UAW insurance fund is bankrupt and Barry says we must cover the UAW. Something like $10,000,000,000. Amazing. A person once made the comment that the health insurance companies had Congress in its pockets. Well, maybe the truth might hurt a bit - the unions has Congress in their front and back pockets.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    If its not subsidized, how will the public option be made affordable to everyone? Including the working poor and non-working poor?

    Likewise, the immigration issue is a huge part of the health care issue if the President is also pushing for amnesty. Looking at the President's health care reforms without looking at his immigration reforms is like looking at the buck my right hand is holding out for you without looking at the wallet my left hand is taking out of your back pocket.
  20. #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    If its not subsidized, how will the public option be made affordable to everyone? Including the working poor and non-working poor?
    So you think that private insurers will be able to add all the high risk people they have been avoiding and now provide them insurance? They will need subsidies. The taxpayers will be subsidizing private for-profit insurance companies, with a 30% overhead. No wonder the insurance companies are dancing with joy over Baucus' bill. Just a handout to big insurance, the same way the republicans handed out to the drug companies. Why not just stand in front of the toilet and throw 30% of your money in the toilet?

    Providing health care to everyone will cost money. If you think we should do it, then we should do it in the most cost-effective way. That excludes insurance companies from the equation. If you don't want to do it, just say so. That's where you appear to be.

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