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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #41  
    Enough! Let's go to a simple flat tax and get on with rebuilding our economy.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Enough! Let's go to a simple flat tax and get on with rebuilding our economy.
    No argument from me. Flat tax (or fair tax) to support the granted powers, and make them pass an amendment to get the powers they have not yet been granted.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I would explain that the greates economic collapse of our lifetime occurred under the previous administration's watch, and numerous measures were taken by the current administration to address it. But of course, when these measures have an impact, you need to give credit to the nonexistent efforts of the previous administration.

    It's ironic that the right gives the economic blame to Obama (although it occurred on Bush's watch), but give the credit to any recovery to Bush (although that happened on Obama's watch). Really silly, but if this delusion helps you sleep at night....
    The article you pointed to stated the economic indicators gained for four consecutive months. That would put the beginning of the turnaround, if there is one, in April. So, are you saying the $700+ billion in TARP funds and other bailouts (real dollars) in 2008 did nothing but the $700+ billion of spending promised in ARRA (promised dollars) turned the economy around in, what, a month?
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The article you pointed to stated the economic indicators gained for four consecutive months. That would put the beginning of the turnaround, if there is one, in April. So, are you saying the $700+ billion in TARP funds and other bailouts (real dollars) in 2008 did nothing but the $700+ billion of spending promised in ARRA (promised dollars) turned the economy around in, what, a month?
    I didn't say that at all. I merely made the point that you can't pick and choose who 'gets credit' for a turnaround based upon your own ideology. Folks can't simultaneously rewrite history and say that it's "Obama's economy", and then give him no credit for the efforts to address it.

    My understanding (and economics isn't my background) that the TARP funds had a degree of effectiveness in saving the Wall Street banks, but those funds didn't lead to an increase in lending, due to the banks holding onto the money. As a result, there were changes made in February to enable TARP funds to mitigate foreclosures and directly buy bad assets. Both sides should share any credit or blame for TARP, as it was passed in a bi-partisan way, and has been managed by both administrations in turn.

    The ARRA funds were designed to more directly address job loss and increased spending. They are not simply promised dollars, but were designed to be released over the course of the next two years. They have promoted growth in spending, as well as reducing job loss. Cash for Clunkers is a good example of this, as it has promoted purchasing of cars, and both the auto and steel industries have hired back workers as a result of the program.

    As the person who writes Title I ARRA grants for my district, as well as the person responsible for cutting teacher positions, I can certainly attest to the effectiveness of ARRA - if not for it, we would have cut twice as many teachers as we ended up losing.
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  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I didn't say that at all. I merely made the point that you can't pick and choose who 'gets credit' for a turnaround based upon your own ideology.
    As did you, originally. And, honestly, I mostly agree with your latest post. Both administration should share in the credit if the final analysis shows these spending bills had any effect at all in an economic turnaround. As it stands, I'm not convinced any of it was necessary. I always thought TARP was a bad idea but the only reason I got more tweaked about ARRA than TARP was because it seemed like throwing good money after bad--and because of what seemed like frivolous spending on things that didn't have anything to do with the current economic problems.

    I would like to think everyone, from industry to the federal, state, and local governments, to individuals, will have learned a valuable lesson in all of this: an increase in revenue doesn't always have to lead to an increase in spending. But, alas, if daddy comes running with the checkbook every time we get in trouble, we won't learn a thing. The economy will almost certainly be even more precarious when this is over.
  6. #46  
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #47  
    Yep, I don't think anyone knows how many of those cars sold in the CARS program were sold to people who were already going to buy cars in the next few months to a year. Consequently, their predictions for near term sales could be very skewed. That's why I predicted production would out-pace sales and car makers would be left with excess inventory. Its going to be a painful fall (take that however you like).
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